Hydra Handlers have 4 attacks now?

[Shadowmoon]

Now that the scourge have the extra attack rule, do they still have the extra hand weapon that gives another extra attack.

[Masterofdarkness]

No, having two hand weapons gives them the same rule, it does not stack as the source of the extra attack is the same rule

[Phi]

I believe so, because think about it if they use the hand weapon in there main hand and the beastmaster's scourge in there other hand they get an extra attack for it being an extra handweapon and another attack because it has the "Extra Attack" special rule.

But could I agree that they actually get 5 attacks? You could think of it this way, both hands have a beastmaster's scourge in them and so they each give you an extra attack which is two attacks and because your using on scourge as an extra hw that give you another attack and they have base two attacks then that comes out to being five attacks, I say this because all the attacks from the Beastmasters are considered armour piercing and the only thing that gives you AP is the scourge itself.

So would this be a good standing for an arguement?

[C_freman]

No, having two hand weapons gives them the same rule, it does not stack as the source of the extra attack is the same rule

If this was true, Frenzy + 2HW wouldn't grant 2 attacks but 1.

Handlers keep their 3 attacks because they're now forced to use the scourge as their main weapon (it's not an additional hand weapon anymore). That's why they added the Extra Attack rule.

[Thanee]

Exactly. The Extra Attack rule basically replaces the Additional Handweapon from 7th here.

Bye
Thanee

[Phi]

I didn't see masterofdarkness post because I was probably writing my post at the same time.

So your saying that a BM is just using a scourge and has two base attacks and the scourge gives you another attack so hence you only have three attacks.

[Minsc]

If this was true, Frenzy + 2HW wouldn't grant 2 attacks but 1.

It's up for debate if the rule (Extra Attack) stacks.

Both Frenzy and an additional handweapon gives the 'Extra Attack' rule. If it's FAQed that they don't stack, I doubt we'll ever see Witch Elves again this Edition.

The Handlers still have 3 attacks. They wen't from 2 base + 1 for additional handweapon, to 2 base + 1 for the scourge wich they are now forced to use.

[C_freman]

Yeah, I made that same question a few weeks ago here (Extra Attack stacking).

The answer was that, unless stated differently, all habilities stack.

[Thanee]

Yep, that's what the special abilities section says.

I have even seen a debate about whether you could gain two attacks from Frenzy now, if you have it twice from different sources (i.e. Witch Elves that gain Frenzy again through a spell).

Bye
Thanee

[Minsc]

Yep, that's what the special abilities section says.

Not quite. It's says that special rules stack in the sense that you can have say both ASF and Extra Attack on the same modell, not that the same special rule can be applied twice.

Yet another thing that needs an FAQ.

[Slyde]

I just finished reading about the weapons section last night, so let me see if I can help clarify.

Page 88 of the BRB under the heading of special weapons: 'We use the term 'special weapon' to cover anything that isn't a hand weapon.'

Going by this we know then that the scourge is a special weapon since they also have a hand weapon in their profile.

Furthermore on the following page, the first sentence under Close combat weapons states,

'If a model carries a special close combat weapon, he must fight with it in the close combat phase - he cannot elect to wield his hand weapon instead.'

Seeing as the beast master's profile just states he has a hand weapon and not an additional hand weapon. We now know that he only fights with his scourge in combat, which gives the extra attack rule. Thus he only gets his 2 attacks +1 more from the extra attack rule bestowed by using his scourge.

Going a step further in on Extra Attack...

Page 66 of the BRB states in the last sentence of the first paragraph under "what special rules does it have"

'Unless otherwise noted, the effects of multiple special rules are cumulative.'

On that sentence alone, I read it as this. Yes we get the +1 attack from Extra Attack granted by additional hand weapon (WE are bestowed that because they have two hand weapons) and yes we get the +1 attack granted by Frenzy (Frenzy is giving us two special rules wrapped up in one special rule with some negatives of the craziness).

The way I read it, Frenzy is just simply covering bases (and printing costs which we all know GW loves to skimp by on these), It makes a lot more sense to read a units special rules as: Extra Attack, Frenzy

As opposed to: Extra Attack, Extra Attack, Immune to Psychology + Frenzy's compulsory points.

Another way to view it also is this. By special rules alone, WE (sorry for using the girls as my example just easier to use for examples) get Frenzy in addition to the rest of their rules. So going by that there, we know they get Extra Attack. So we already know they are getting a +1 attack to their base from Frenzy. Now we see they have two hand weapons, well that too gives the Extra Attack rule, so there's another +1.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that WE are NOT going to use their additional hand weapon in combat for the extra attack?

Going back to my original pulling from the rules, the first part of that last sentence should be the finisher, 'Unless otherwise noted'.

I don't see anywhere that says we can't get two effects of Extra Attack that are being granted from two different sources. Yes its the same special rule but they are originating from different sources.

Also, I called games workshop customer service for further rules clarification (on something different but figured I would ask this since I was already talking to the guy) and was told that yes you do get the +1 from additional hand weapon and +1 from frenzy.

To quote what I was told, "They are two different and distinct sources. One is cause you have an extra weapon. The other is cause you've gone into a rage. So yes, you get +2 attacks because they stack"

Hopefully this will help clear up confusion (and usefulness of WE) on Frenzy and Additional Hand Weapon.

[C_freman]

I guessed so much, but it made me wonder (and I have my book at home and can't look at it right now)...

Does Armor piercing stack? Can our RxB get a -2 to AS with the banner of murder (potencially -3 with the new banner and a BSB, but that's probably overkill )

If so, it would make one hell of a unit.

[Thanee]

It's unclear, whether actual stacking of the very same rule (i.e. Frenzy + Frenzy or Armour Piercing + Armour Piercing) will work...

Frenzy is a grey area, since it refers back to Extra Attack, but still is another special ability than Extra Attack.

I'm pretty sure it is meant to stack with Extra Attack from another source.

Bye
Thanee

[Slyde]

I guessed so much, but it made me wonder (and I have my book at home and can't look at it right now)...

Does Armor piercing stack? Can our RxB get a -2 to AS with the banner of murder (potencially -3 with the new banner and a BSB, but that's probably overkill )

If so, it would make one hell of a unit.

That I'm not 100% sure on.

The crossbows themselves give the Armor Piercing rule, so there's -1.

The banner of murder gives another Armor Piercing, so there's another -1 from a different source. Since the weapons give the rule and the banner gives the unit itself that special rule.

Throw in a BSB with Razor Standard and I'm not sure. I will have to read the rules on BSB more in depth to see if its a different source. I would assume it is since 1) you have to still pay points for its effects 2) BSB gives +1 combat resolution on top of having a standard in a unit, so already its a "different category".

I'll go through the rules to see if I can find anything that clarifies this rather sick combo. Add in a Guiding Eye with that and you've got a unit that can rip apart heavy armored unit with ease.

[Darktan]

you can only end up with two instances of AP, crossbowmen cannot carry a magic banner.

[Slyde]

Bingo, I knew there was something that would prevent that much Armor Piercing stacking. Heh, my own fault for not checking the most obvious question first. Oh well, still need re-assimilate the rules on BSB since there might still be instances where double stacking magic banners could be useful. So far I still see nothing that rules that out.

Well aside from a unit not able to take a magical banner on their normal standard bearer.

[C_freman]

Yeah, I realized it after posting... my bad -_-

It's still nice to have the option to give the RxB a -2 to armor.

Or, maybe, giving black guards (now that they gain nothing from Hag Graef) both banners for a total armor reduction of -3... that would make them really useful against medium/heavy armored foes.

[Asikari]

Lore of Metal, Spell #2, I think it is, maybe #3, also provides armor piercing. So there's three.