Empire Artillery

Ichiyo1821 · Post by **Ichiyo1821** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:04 pm

Yes I know TLOS is the new thing in 8th edition and yes as long as you can see the target you can shoot at it but after my last game I'm beginning to get frustrated with Empire canons. My opponent had LOS, I agreed to that but realistically speaking the gap is so freaking impossible to aim the canon so accurately. picture this:

Behind a small rubble to the canon's right there was this small opening for the crew to see so he had TLOS but right infront of the actual canon was something like the gap between the arm and leg of the empire war altar model and the target he was hitting was empty ground in front of my COK. It was like he skirted the canonball by a wall. He over shot the COK and it hit my Sorceress in my Spearmen unit and I fail my lookout sir and lost her. Yes I'm not complaining about the look out sir but I'm asking it this is really legal. I was under the impression that since you fire from the barrel of the canon, it must be able to trace a clear straight line that was " reasonable for the actual bullet modelwise. I felt that the gap was way too small, as if I was comparing an opening that would allow a 9mm bullet but not a small metal ball... Yes I'm ranting but maybe I'm not. Does the new TLOS allow that much freedom with canons? I'm about to enter a tournament with lots of those and I want to know what you guys think.

Again, the crew could see, no questions asked but as for the actual somewhat obscured line from the muzzle of the canon...it's too sketchy to shoot let's say between the legs of a cavalry model.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:54 pm

The cannon firing rules are crap. Just accept it and move on.

In GW's opinion, smoothbore cannons are the best weapon ever invented and all armies should be using them today. They are better at hitting flying targets than a guided missile, can bounce off the skink crew of a stegadon to kill everybody for more improbable shots than the bullet that killed JFK, can shoot through the windows of a building to hit someone hiding behind it (but can't do the same if he hides behind a wicker fence?), can bounce low enough to hit snakes or beetles or as high as to hit the rider on top of a rearing dragon, And they can do all of this while nestled one inch behind a unit of 50 halberdiers... But hey, it's a fantasy game right? It doesn't have to make sense. Thank god they're not broken, like hydras.

Minsc · Post by **Minsc** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:07 pm

As a Empire (and Dark Elves) player myself, I agree that cannons are ridiculously accurate.

Blame Mat Ward for removing guess range and adding TLoS.

Grimma · Post by **Grimma** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:59 pm

Cannons are not nice and as Druchii was are honour bound to let our harpies get rid of as many of them as we possibly can. Just note that the point at which your opponent chooses to make the canon ball bounce must be in his line of sight. He cannot simply aim at the Hydra and pick a point 6" in front of it if that point is not within his line of sight... which gives monsters a place to hide if you put them 8" behind a building or a hill (ie he can still target the hydra but cannot choose a point in front of it for the bounce).

Also a point on grapeshot that is often missed - you must now roll number of hits on an artillery dice, and then roll to hit. Which greatly reduces the effectiveness of grapeshot.

Ichiyo1821 · Post by **Ichiyo1821** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:37 am

Just re-read the rules for warmachines... All this time I was still under the impression that the crew were responsible for LOS. Now LOS must be traced from the barrel of the gun, if this was so, he couldn't have made that shot as the clearing was too high for the model's muzzle.. they should really re-evaluate warmachines and their costs, atleast they fixed the Spear Chukkas already, now please fix the rest of em including our BTs...Zzz

The virgin forest · Post by **The virgin forest** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:41 am

Minsc wrote:As a Empire (and Dark Elves) player myself, I agree that cannons are ridiculously accurate.

Blame Mat Ward for removing guess range and adding TLoS.

Removing guess range didn't make cannons any less accurate among players with more than a few games on their back.

Actually, cannons got their firearcs lessened, as the crew became reduced to wound counters, and you only draw TLoS from the cannon itself.

Vulcan · Post by **Vulcan** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:42 am

I will forever remain convinced that warmachines should ALL be making BS to-hit rolls.

Minsc · Post by **Minsc** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:50 am

Removing guess range didn't make cannons any less accurate among players with more than a few games on their back.

Even players 'skilled' in guessing would've had a problem 'guessing' the bouncespot to be exactly 10"/8" infront ot the back end of a hydra/dragon/etc.
Now you just say "8" infront of your hydra".

Trust me, there's a great difference in how many hits each system would score.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:06 pm

Vulcan wrote:I will forever remain convinced that warmachines should ALL be making BS to-hit rolls.

Well said, that man! We have a stat, use it.

Greenwhy · Post by **Greenwhy** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:46 am

I would love to see cannons rolling to hit, they are way too accurate.

Vulcan · Post by **Vulcan** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:12 am

No kidding!

50 archers can potentially all miss an entire unit but a cannon can RELIABLY snipe a lone character? I call shennannigans!

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:50 am

shenanigans AND HIJINX!! I second that emotion!!!

I think I'm more afraid of the mortar banks (yknow, the 2 or 3 behind the 2 or 3) that have the whole table as an option that technically doesn't require TLoS because of pre-measurement rules.

I hate the fact that they say 'if you hit the head or body it counts' and we have yknow... 5 heads on a hydra lol that has to be one GREAT shot. like a flaming cannonball that pulps the head while it spins all the internal organs to their flaming doom just because he got a good roll lol.

Greenwhy · Post by **Greenwhy** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:01 am

Ridden monsters shouldn't hit both rider and monster.... I saw a Bell and a Grey seer both die from a single cannon shot. As much as I hate the filthy vermin, that is some BS.

Minsc · Post by **Minsc** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:57 am

Indeed, the fact that a cannonball can hit both the rider and mount is both stupid and illogical.
I think this is a fact that all WFBplayers agree on (even Empire/Dwarf players).
Courtesy of Matt Ward.

Ichiyo1821 · Post by **Ichiyo1821** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:05 pm

Make Bolt Throwers 50-75 points and we'll call it even...(actually it still isn't but seriously at 75 points I'd consider putting 2 back in my 2500 list..)

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:12 am

I've always wondered why WE don't have something similar to Cannons or Poison, KB, Sniper to RBT or SOMETHING or like SpearChucker for Corsairs- Hits a unit, and pulls them forward after inflicting wounds or summat

Greenwhy · Post by **Greenwhy** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:05 am

Ichiyo1821 wrote:Make Bolt Throwers 50-75 points and we'll call it even...(actually it still isn't but seriously at 75 points I'd consider putting 2 back in my 2500 list..)

No deal! Cannons need to be made less BS, regardless of weather or not we get reasonably priced RBT's or not.

Post by **Layne** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:42 am

BS to hit doesn't make a lot of sense for cannons or for bolt throwers imo. Something based on BS that makes it scatter to left or right of the intended aim point would be better, and then it hits whatever is on that line from the barrel. This would make it more difficult to hit a monster, near impossible to shoot through a narrow gap unless the gap is right in front, and also near impossible to hit a single model. Also a special rule for cannons like hard cover counts as soft cover, and soft cover as no cover at all for the purposes of rolling to hit or wound.

Then you could still have your true LOS, wouldn't not hardly ever be able to shoot through a window unless the cannon was in the window, could pretty easily blow up a guy behind a wicker fence unless you couldn't see him. You could even go as far as to suggest that the above rule about cover would work on LOS as well, so as to simulate the idea that if you're looking down the barrel of a cannon at an open field with a fence across it's generally going to be a good idea to have a shot at the fence.

It could even be a separate special rule, which could also be applied to things like monster attacks, or magic attacks, and allows especially strong attacks to smash through things, to remove cover from the table etc.

Of course none of it would ever happen because the trend is toward less complexity, but I think it would be nice.

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:37 pm

Speaking from a real world point: the earliest tests of cannons, if they hit their targets, took about 12 out of the 50 out, that was mainly from the impact with the ground. And the range wasn't great, and the loading time with even a FULL crew was HORRIBLE- but not many people would take cannons into a game like this if they knew they could only fire once per 2 turns, become insanely non-effective if it even gets scratched, and no bounce rules to make things weird and annoying.

Bitterman · Post by **Bitterman** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:51 am

It could be worse. A few editions back Gav Thorpe wrote a WD article declaring that cannons don't need LOS at all (you just nominate a direction and a distance, so don't need to be able to see a target), and that mortars and stone throwers work in completely different ways (due to a minor change of phrasing between the army books at the time despite the fact they were clearly intended to work the same way).

I considered the man to be a retard. Then Matt Ward came along, and I realised that Gav's actually quite a smart chap by comparison.

Yes, obviously, war machines should all use BS. It's the crew that are firing it, so why does their effectiveness rely entirely on the player not the crew? But unfortunately GW invented the artillery dice, so they feel they have to use it for something...