Frenzy charges

Lokil · Post by **Lokil** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:54 pm

Hey guys last game we had following scenario...

My Spearmen and Shades stood in range of a Bloodtower which gives them the frenzy special rule. Since I didnt want to charge the ogers with my shades I took the LD test and failed... previously I took a LD test on my warrior unit and made it. Now, after failing the LD test for the Shades I wanted my 40 man warrior unit to charge too. My oponent told me I couldnt because I already rolled the test for frenzy charge. I didnt really see how just because youre not charging because your crazy keeps you from charging because you want to... Couldnt find anything about that in the frenzy rules either.

So can a unit that makes the LD test for frenzy still charge a unit?

Thanks in advance

Lokil

P.s.: I couldnt find anything with the search function.

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:52 pm

As i interpret the rules you have to declare a charge unless you pass a Ld test. that means that if you roll the test you are saying "this unit does not want to charge". However, i cant really quote any specific part of the rule to prove my point. in these situations you should probably "4+ it".

Maybe some one else could lawyer this one

Post by **Calisson** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:58 pm

The only obligation mentioned for frenzied troops is to charge the nearest foe if you fail the Ld test.
There is no obligation to renounce to charge if you fail.
Nothing prevents you to change your mind as long as the sub-phase (charge declaration) is not completed.

It's only after the first charge distance is rolled that you cannot anymore declare any charge with any troop which is not charging yet.

Goruss · Post by **Goruss** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:04 pm

The Berserk Rage rule under Frenzy states that if you have to take the leadership test, even if you want to charge. If you fail the leadership test you must charge the closest unit.

If you pass the leadership test, there are no additional rules under the Frenzy special rule. To me this would indicate that the unit that passed the test can charge normally.

To answer your question, I would say yes you can declare a charge if you pass your LD test.

Referenced BRB p.90

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:45 am

see? some one else lawyered it

i love this place

Lokil · Post by **Lokil** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:53 am

thanks everybody I was under the same impression.

Flash29 · Post by **Flash29** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:46 pm

the way i understand it is, and this should be right, you first have to declare charges, if you declare a charge you don't need to test for frenzy, if you choose not to charge, you have to take a ld test, if failed you need to charge the closest unit.
which means you can't change your mind once you see your other unit has failed it test, otherwise it would be a slight tactical advantage.

after checking the rules, i would have to agree you are still allowed to charge, the wording could still be interpreted diffrently.

the unit must declare a charge (on anyone) unless it passes a leaderschip test, so that would be saying you don't want to charge, as you can charge as normal before the you take the leadership test. (and if you succeed you don't have to charge, if you fail you have to, and on the closest enemy)

i don't think this is written very clearly, but i'd advise you to declare charges where nessesary, and only when everything is declared, you would roll for frenzy. Then again this kind of situation is probably not common at all.

Creedence · Post by **Creedence** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:20 pm

If I recall correctly, (which i might not) the test for a frenzies charge would occur during the start of turn phase as it is phycology like stupidity. As it would occur before the movement phase where charges are declared. As such a successful LD check should not prevent a charge.

Post by **Dalamar** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:46 pm

Fail Ld - charge nearest
Pass Ld - charge anyone or not charge at all.

@flash29

That's how it worked in last edition. If you didn't declare charge with a frenzied unit and then found out they were in range... they had to charge. Now because you can measure at any time for any reason, once you get to the Frenzied unit and see that it's in range, you have to take the test. Once that's passed, the unit follows the rules for charging of any other non-frenzied unit.

Flash29 · Post by **Flash29** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:42 pm

@dalamar how i explained my train off though is how it is written in the current rulebook which does say that a unit must declare a charge, unless it passes a leadership test. if it fails it, it charges the closest enemy, if it succeeds, wel, thats not mentioned. So you can either see it in two ways.

1 you can charge if you want, if you don't take the leadership test, but its saying you won't charge if you do

2 it says you must unless you pass the ld test, but it doesn't say you can't if you pass. which would allow you to still declare a charge after the test is passed.

i see 2 ways of interpreting, and wouldn't know which one to choose honestly

Lokil · Post by **Lokil** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:44 am

that was the dilemma we had in the game too.. Ofcourse I wanted to support my shade unit against those ogers but I saw my opponents point of view too. Not really a big deal in the situation but would be nice to know in the future.

Also if a unit looses combat they loose their frenzy. So far so good.
What if theyre still within the 6 inch range of the blood tower? does it bestow frenzy every turn? Or would a unit who has lost combat previously have to go out of the 6 inch range of the tower and back in to regain the frenzy?

Thanks so far for your answers!

Post by **Calisson** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:49 am

BRB, p.16, Charge sub-phase, wrote:C1- you'll choose one of our units and declare the charge you want it to make.
C2- Once the charge reaction has been resolved, you can nominate another of your units to declare a charge, and so on, until all of your charges have been declared and reacted to
C3- then you get to make your charge rolls and resolve the charges.

BRB, p.70, Frenzy, wrote:F1- If, during the Charge sub-fase, a Frenzied unit could declare a charge, then it must do so unless a Leadership test is passed.
F2- If the Ld test is failed, the Frenzied unit must declare a charge against the nearest viable enemy.
F3- If the Ld test is passed, there is nothing written in the BSB.

Reading what I've read, I see the following possibilities for {F}, the Frenzied unit:

1- {F} cannot charge (too far, out of LOS, obstacle...) => Condition F1 has no effect.

2- {F} decides to charge (must be "possible", see p.16, a unit cannot declare an impossible charge) => condition F1 is met. No Ld test is rolled.
Furthermore, as condition F2 is not relevant, I believe that {F} could charge whoever they want, not only the closest foe. This point is debatable.

3- {F} wants to know if it must charge, rolls for Ld and fails. => Conditions F1 and F2 are met. {F} must declare a charge, and it must be against the closest legal foe.
Rules lawyers could argue that the charge declaration could be delayed, as long as it happens during the Charge sub-phase. Indeed, it is not written in the rules that it has to be done immediately, therefore condition C1 still leaves some choice about the order.
For practical reasons, I believe {F} should formally declare that charge immediately after the test. Otherwise, diverse charge reactions to charges by other units could change the situation and leave {F} with no more foe to charge.

4- {F} wants to know if it must charge, rolls for Ld and passes. => Condition F1 is met, condition F2 does not apply, and condition F3 does not exist. The unit is no longer forced to declare a charge.
In that case, I believe that {F} has become a normal unit
- at the end of the Charge subphase, it may have not declared any charge
- at any time during the Charge subphase, it may declare a charge, against any legal foe.
Nothing restricts {F} to wait for other charge declarations & reactions, as condition C1 & C2 allow it.

Lokil wrote: if a unit looses combat they loose their frenzy. So far so good.
What if theyre still within the 6 inch range of the blood tower? does it bestow frenzy every turn? Or would a unit who has lost combat previously have to go out of the 6 inch range of the tower and back in to regain the frenzy?!

BRB, p.70, losing Frenzy, wrote:Models retain their Frenzy unless beaten in combat => the Frenzy (together with all associated rules) is lost.

BRB, p.131, Tower of Blood, wrote:Units within 6" have Frenzy/Hatred.
As soon as the unit moves out of range, Frenzy/Hatred is lost.

The tower effect is that the unit has the special rule.
As I read it, losing combat means losing Frenzy, however the Tower brings back Frenzy as quickly as it is lost.
- As long as within 6", cannot lose Frenzy even if losing combat.
- If combat lost out of 6", will regain Frenzy if closing at <6".

But it could be interpreted diversely.

Note: my "quotes" are actually exerpts, not comprehensive quotes.

Saintofm · Post by **Saintofm** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:38 pm

I guess the passing a LD test is so if you have two targets (lerts just say one is big and scary, and the other is a shrimp), both were within a reasonavle charge, but the unit you didn't want to charge was an inch closer.

So if I get this strait: fail the LD test and go for the first enemy within charge distance (big and scary), and if I pass, I can charge the target I really wanted to charge.

Duke daedric · Post by **Duke daedric** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:22 pm

So it is said in the RB.. however you might circumvent this if you declare charge with Funit without testing.. but if you didn't want to charge and then failed LD test, then you have to charge the "big n' scary" one.

Lokil · Post by **Lokil** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:24 pm

So the only way to loose the bloodtower frenzy is leaving the 6 inch range?

Post by **Dalamar** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:58 am

You can't circumvent the Frenzy anymore by declaring a charge. That was the way in 7th ed.

Now you have to test whether you want to charge or not.
Fail - charge nearest
Pass - charge anyone in range or no one at all.

Geist · Post by **Geist** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:24 am

Dalamar
If you fail a restraint for frenzy charge, you must declare a valid charge. Nearest no longer applys. You just have to charge any unit that is valid. IE in arc and in theoretical charge range.

Post by **Dalamar** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:30 am

Page 70 of the rulebook.

"If the Leadership test is failed, the Frenzied unit must declare a charge against the nearest visible enemy."

The wording leaves nothing to interpretation in this case.

Duke daedric · Post by **Duke daedric** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:33 am

I agree with Dalamar, wording is clear. Hmmm Frenzy can indeed prove to be liabillity these days.

So it is back to the good old days when it was good idea to screen your witches so they don't charge something you don't want.. I LIKE IT!

Flash29 · Post by **Flash29** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:22 am

Dalamar wrote:You can't circumvent the Frenzy anymore by declaring a charge. That was the way in 7th ed.

Now you have to test whether you want to charge or not.
Fail - charge nearest
Pass - charge anyone in range or no one at all.

p70 of the rulebook if a frenzied unit could declare a charge, then it must do so unless a leadership test is passed.

if i declare my charge(which has no restrictions) i need not take a leadership test which has the potential of failure

you can still circumvent frenzy by declaring a charge

Ataroth · Post by **Ataroth** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:06 pm

After reading the rule a few times and figuring out the order I'd actually be inclined to say if you take the Ld test you are implying that the unit isn't charging this phase.

It does say you must charge charge UNLESS you pass the Ld test. The way I see it, once you've rolled the dice you are testing to see if they restrain from charging. This would indicate to the opponent that you don't want to charge.

Saying that though on the flip side, as long you haven't gone on to the rest of movement you should be allowed to change your mind.

Ataroth · Post by **Ataroth** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:42 pm

saintofm wrote:I guess the passing a LD test is so if you have two targets (lerts just say one is big and scary, and the other is a shrimp), both were within a reasonavle charge, but the unit you didn't want to charge was an inch closer.

So if I get this strait: fail the LD test and go for the first enemy within charge distance (big and scary), and if I pass, I can charge the target I really wanted to charge.

Also this doesn't apply, as long as both are in charge range, you can charge either without having to worry about the test. The nearest unit only comes into affect if you don't want to charge either unit.

Duke daedric · Post by **Duke daedric** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:32 pm

The way I see it (and I could be wrong) is: before anything check for Frenzy (if targets in range), if you pass charge what you want/or not, if you fail charge the closest..

Vulcan · Post by **Vulcan** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:58 pm

Learn somethin' new every day here...

I had thought Frenzy rolls were made during Compulsory moves, like fleeing, random moves, and what-not, since a Frenzy charge is in some ways quite similar - i.e. being 'compulsory' in that it was not under your control. I take a closer look at the rules (BRB p.70) it says:

"If, during the Charge sub-phase, a unit containing one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge, then it must do so unless a Ld test is passed. If the Ld test is failed, the Frenzied unit must declare a charge against the nearest viable enemy."

Oops. :oops:

So the question is, when are you required to make the tests? At the beginning of the "Declare charges" segment? Or at some later point which could concievably follow the unit declaring a normal charge, at which point it becomes largely irrelevant because obviously a unit can't make two charges...

It can be argued either way.