Black Guard - putting the E in Warrior Elite

[Thraundil]

Hey everyone,

I love the Black Guard. Simply do, the models are great (especially compared to the executioner version!), the fluff is great, and some of its abilities are really good. Others are quite simply lackluster, however. The unit has been discussed at length - it strikes with S4, but 2 attacks. The general agreement is that WE or even corsairs do a similar or even better job handling low T/AS opponents since they are both cheaper (by 4 points a pop!) and core. And executioners do a better job taking out biggies. Black guard only become really interesting if you somehow ump their S to 5 through magic and give them razor banner, and even then they are probably outperformed by executioners with the same buffs.

Black Guard have one designated role; stubborn anvil type. But its again problematic to put T3 5+ AS elves into combat with the intention of losing, just so you can hold with LD9.

And comparing them to our lousy cousins "elite warriors", the Phoenix Guard, it just becomes laughable. Same cost, and considering HE's extra rank attack they even have the same stats! (10 BG in 2x5 vs 10 PG in 3x3 with 1 to spare as the extreme example that this applies even at lower model counts).
But oh, PG cause fear and have a 4++ built in. Sure, they are not stubborn, but when you have 4++ you dont need stubborn. Either you win combat, or you are facing something big enough that it wont disrupt steadfast.

In conclusion: for BG to ever be a competitive pick used aside from "for the fluff", they need a better set of rules. I dont suggest transforming them into something that trumps executioners role of high S attacks, nor into something that trumps WE and to an extent corsairs ability to take out light infantry. I want the Black Guard to be the warrior elite, whom you can depend upon to hold the line no matter what. Kind of like Napoleons Imperial Guard

With this in mind, here is what I propose.

Black Guard of Naggarond, 15 points per model

Infantry, Special, unique choice.

M 5
WS 5
BS 4
S 3
T 3
W 1
I 6
A 2
Ld 9

Briefly considered suggesting 2 wounds a pop, but that would make them abit OP I guess

Equipment:

Halberd
Hand Weapon
Heavy Armour

Options:

Tower Master: 10 pts, may take magic weapon for up to 25 pts
Musician: 10 pts
Standard Bearer: 10 pts, may take magic banner for up to 50 pts
Entire unit may take shields at 1 pt/model

Special Rules:

Always Strikes First
Eternal Hatred
Immune to Psychology
Murderous Prowess
Stubborn
Malekiths Favoured
Warrior Elite

Malekiths Favoured: If Malekith is the army general, the Black Guard of Naggarond gains the unbreakable special rule. (Shared feature with Kouran, but I mean... They will bloody fight for Malekith if nothing else! If you include both Malekith and Kouran, maybe make Kourans bonus amplified somehow, like frenzy or an extra point of movement for discipline of steel).

Warrior Elite: The Black Guard of Naggarond may treat flank and rear charges against them as being a frontal charge when determining which models may attack (essentially; they may free reform in melee before each close combat phase begins, but possibly the charging unit should retain the +1 for flanking or +2 for rear). In addition, the Black Guard are such skilled warriors that they get a bonus to their ward save against wounds suffered in close combat equal to their weapon skill minus that of the model who inflicted the wound.
This means, if they fight with hand weapon and shields, they have a 6++ parry save in close combat. If the opponent is WS4, its 5++, if its WS3 they get 4++ so on. Possibly this should synergise with WS lowering spells?
Of course, if they just fight with halberds, they are no ward save if equal WS, but if enemy has WS4 they get a 6++.


This, in my opinion, makes very little difference to the killing power of the black guard. It even lowers it a little bit, as you will probably want to fight with hw/shield in close combat from time to time, especially if against other good warriors. It makes WS-lowering spells or fear extremely potent in combination with the unit (death hag with cry of war?), but may also be used against the unit at its peril. It DOES, however, transform the black guard into an extremely potent anvil in many situations. They will still suffer a bunch of wounds thanks to T3, but they will have a lot more staying power with the option of 4+ AS and a measure of ward. At 16 models a pop with shields, with the above statline, I'd take them. But I wouldnt consider them over the top. Especially considering how similar they are to PG, who still has the 4++ universally, albeit no access to shields (I know, I know, different armybooks and all that).

So, all there's left to see now is how you guys think of these rules. It makes the BG into what I think they are intended to be; the centre line that you can rely on to hold the line.

[Clockwork]

If you want to do that, you need to introduce a special rule that Black Guard may choose which weapons to use. Halberds are a special weapon and therefore must always be used if equipped.

Personally, I'm not convinced. I do agree that Black Guard are overshadowed by Phoenix Guard (the 'Dark Elves are High Elves but better!' bandwagoners never mentioned that...), but I'm not sure that this is the best way to do it. I do like the free reform that they get at the start of combat though - that in itself is potentially quite powerful.

[Dangerous Beans]

Give them armour penetration as standard and be done with it...

Nah I like your fluff based rules although they need streamlining a bit.

I think that they should be unbreakable instead of stubborn. That'd do the trick. Shield are a nice addition (loads of other halberd wielding elites have the same option for shields) and would help with the undoubtable firepower that they'd suffer on their way in.

I reckon Kouran should either allow the unit a free combat reforms after any charge have been resolved (ie. they can't be flanked/rear charged without doubling the enemy units) OR he allows the unit the ability to declare counter charges. Both fit his background and would be useful, fun gaming aids that don't draw on any of our High Elf equivalents (getting a ward save just makes them sound like Black Phoenix Guard in my opinion)

[Thraundil]

Give them armour penetration as standard and be done with it...

Nah I like your fluff based rules although they need streamlining a bit.

I think that they should be unbreakable instead of stubborn. That'd do the trick. Shield are a nice addition (loads of other halberd wielding elites have the same option for shields) and would help with the undoubtable firepower that they'd suffer on their way in.

I reckon Kouran should either allow the unit a free combat reforms after any charge have been resolved (ie. they can't be flanked/rear charged without doubling the enemy units) OR he allows the unit the ability to declare counter charges. Both fit his background and would be useful, fun gaming aids that don't draw on any of our High Elf equivalents (getting a ward save just makes them sound like Black Phoenix Guard in my opinion)

Well armor penetration as standard would make them better, sure, but they would still be the worse choice between WE and executioners. Giving them unbreakable straight off the bat would rock, and make congaline cheese alot more efficient as you can reliably put a 1 or 2 man wide unit of 10-15 BG in and they WOULD hold out for 2 turns. Shields would indeed make them more resilient towards BS shooting, the ever-present bane of our very expensive infantry.

I do agree with the "black phoenix guard" problem. Thats why I dont want them to have universal ward, but only have it in close combat and as a "parry save improvement". The two would be entirely different things, and would still make the black guard weak versus shooting and magic. I just cant find any reason to want to put T3 elves into an actual, big frontage grind fight without giving them some means of survival. The congaline stubborn/unbreakable is the only valid use I can find for black guard at the moment, and the tactic is sort of cheesy I feel.

[Gerner]

One of our comp systems I play with (2MD) repriced them to 13 points.
It makes a lot of difference because you can suddenly have more of them on the table.

I personally don't like the whole unbreakable thing. They should be usable in larger groups as well.

Following ideas I like so far:
- Armour Piercing & Shield.
- Warrior Elite (fun special rule).
- Reducing them with 2-3 points.
- Maybe SDC?

All interesting possibilities.
I think the Warrior Elite rule does have a few problems, since it doesn't really help them with taking more difficult opponents (like WoC).

Anyways, I'm gonna follow this thread closely.

[T.D.]

How about same price but S4 2A?

Don't like the shields idea as that will de-sexy my models. Doesn't matter if it makes them more survivable!

I think wards are quite fluffy for elven elites, and would prefer a magical one to a shield one for reasons including the above.

I also think that all halberd wielding infantry troops, including the evil birdy ones, should have a special rule to attack charging cavalry at +2S bonus in the first round of combat (receiving a frontal charge only).

(The samurai cut the legs off Mongol horses with their Naginata. This rule change would also differentiate halberds from spears and GW, and see them used as they were in combat i.e. anti-cavalry. Also would help balance MC.)

[Thraundil]

I thought of suggesting giving them S4 on the statline. But that would make them 2A S5 ASF effectively, compared to executioners 1A S6 on initiative (meaning no rerolls). In such a situation, its almost a nobrainer to take BG over executioners, and them maybe beef them with magic to get S6 and suddenly we're looking at a BEAST of a unit with that many attack outputs.

Just shields along with halberds would give them ranged defense while providing none in close combat. Then I'd rather give them sea dragon cloaks, but being the guardians of Malekiths personal fortress, they are never close to the sea. Theres no fluff reason they should have them. I am a fan of introducing a ward save on them, but am weary of the "black phoenix guard" as was pointed out earlier. That is the very reason I suggested an improved parry save for them in close combat, whilst having very little defense to ranged attacks. Allowing them to gain a S bonus when charged by cavalry would be awesome! But then, who would charge cavalry into S4 stuff (likely with AP banner) with that many ASF attack outputs, anyway

And Gerner, the warrior elite rule as I suggested it does indeed have problems against stuff with high WS. It was just an idea I came up with, and poses problems when facing other elite warriors. Is this then good or bad, fluff-wise and game wise. Fluffwise I think its fine, other elites can outsmart their parries. Game wise, its a problem because you want the unit to function regardless of the enemy it is facing...

[T.D.]

Good call on S4 making them too macho in comparison to Execs.

How about arrow cutting as a ward save instead of (or in addition to) a CC ward?



i.e. Ballistic test roll to block missiles under modified strength (4) {one attempt per model per phase}? or missiles equal to and under base strength (if the former would lead to shenanigans)

-> would need playtesting to get the balance and points value right.

Also, they could have a fighting style that gives them a kind of parry using the Halberd. Seriously, my models are not getting butchered to support your ideas

[Setomidor]

I would like them to fill a specific niche that is not already taken by something else.

Anti-armour -> Execs
Anti-hordes -> WE/Corsairs
Anvil? I guess that's the intention with the current rules, but they would either need a price reduction or some ward to make them last longer (5++ would probably be enough as a sole change).
Infantry with special moves? Something like the Slaanesh mark (ItP but may flee) would be a great start. You could also consider making them rally automatically right after moving their flee distance (so if the enemy roll far enough when charging them he would complete the charge, but the BG would rally before that and fight on as normal. They still would be catchable after breaking from combat).
Jack of all infantry? Too expensive for what they do, a price reduction to 13 pts would be enough.

[Thraundil]

Arrow cutting seems like a nice and fluffy ward towards ranged attacks. And sure, let them use their halberd to parry. It all servers my point; they need to be more sturdy.

As Setomidor says, they need to be able to fill the "anvil" role, but they are too squishy to go up against "hard to break" opponents, yet too expensive for a "kill them on the charge" unit.

Heck, I'd even settle for dropping their attacks to 1, and giving them 4++ making them completely identical to PG. Just anything to make them into the anvil I believe they are meant to be!

[T.D.]

I concur with all the thoughts towards making them more anvil-y

Execs = Chop, Witches = Hacknslash, Sisters = CanCan, BG = Anvil

[Amboadine]

Sisters = CanCan

Oh god, my eyes...

[Thraundil]

Sisters = CanCan

Oh god, my eyes...

Derp!

But yeah, its funny because sisters, whom are meant to be anvil breakers, are better anvils than Black Guard... Same cost, but they got that 4++ going for them.

[Amboadine]

On a serious note, I have to agree, Black guard are not delivering vs PG.
Obviously the easiest alignment would be to bring them in line with our HE adversaries, but that seems to be lacking something.

But they really do need some sort of staying power similiar to a ward save, maybe something that prevents an AP penalty, so they always have a static AP save. Could be explained as a fighting style that deflects the worse of the enemies strength and limits the power of any strikes against them.

Whilst not as effective as a ward, it does give them a little more staying power.

[T.D.]

Heck, I'd even settle for dropping their attacks to 1, and giving them 4++ making them completely identical to PG.

A cunning plan: how bout identical statswise to Phoenix Guard but with....










































...wait for it....

















































....wait for it....




































....keep waiting for it....



























































...*drum roll*...





























































....a reverse ward save

[T.D.]

I am being serious. Something like rolling under the S of an incoming attack to a maximum of a 3+ ward (kudos to whoever suggested that on an old PoK thread).

S1 = no ward
S2 = 6+
S3 = 5+
S4 = 4+
S5 = 3+
S6 = 3+
S6+ = 3+

It would make them weaker than PG vs low S hordes, equal with PG head to head, and stronger than PG vs high strength foes.

Basically making them Phoenix Guard but with more massive balls. Which is exactly how Black Guard should be

[Thraundil]

I am being serious. Something like rolling under the S of an incoming attack to a maximum of a 3+ ward (kudos to whoever suggested that on an old PoK thread).

S1 = no ward
S2 = 6+
S3 = 5+
S4 = 4+
S5 = 3+
S6 = 3+
S6+ = 3+

It would make them weaker than PG vs low S hordes, equal with PG head to head, and stronger than PG vs high strength foes.

Basically making them Phoenix Guard but with more massive balls. Which is exactly how Black Guard should be

Thats a perfect suggestion. Would take them in a heartbeat if this was the case. Especially if it worked vs shooting and crap, too

[T.D.]

Whoever originally suggested the idea should chip in

Not sure if it's too OP. Maybe only vs mundane attacks? and an X points increase over PG (BG also have stubborn and eternal hatred)?

Another approach could be to cap it at S6 i.e. S7+ = no ward.

[Zlatan]

When I first read it I really liked the idea of the bonuses against flank and rear attacks. I love the idea of a unit that can be relied on to hold a flank unsupported against overwhelming force until the death; it suits my mental image of them as elite bodyguards.
I still think they should be fairly fragile though... Just to distinguish them from PG
How about WS6, unbreakable, and can make supporting attacks against side and rear attacks as if being charged in the front, and enemy units don't get combat bonuses for side and rear attacks?

I think with these rules they could even be bumped up by a point per model, and still be worth taking over execs for some roles - as a reliable flank-denial unit. With a large enough unit you could rely on them to hold against multiple charges from many enemy units, allowing the rest of your army greater freedom in deployment for an all out push on the other flank.

I was also thinking about maybe allowing them to fight in an extra rank too - maybe it would be too OP with 2 attacks each, so perhaps drop them to 1A but allow the extra supporting attacks. That would encourage people not to take them in tiny minimal sized units, which would mitigate the power of making them unbreakable a bit...


Any thoughts?

[Daeron]

While many seem eager to make suggestions to improve them... how many have tried them on a regular basis in the field? Where are the battle reports?
I hope to be able to deliver simulations about them in combat some day... Urgh! But it's a lot of work

[Zlatan]

I've played with them in a smaller game - unit of 20 with a cauldron in them (with witch brew) and the razor standard. They did pretty well but I got the impression execs would have been better against the higher toughness/armour stuff, and witches would have been just as good against the softer stuff, and better against tough low armour stuff with poison, for cheaper.

That's their problem at the moment I think - they're kind of a midway point between the benefits of witches and execs (more attacks at less strength vs fewer attacks at higher strength), and they're more expensive. So they're more flexible in their role but not necessarily great at either role. The stubborn is a nice bonus but only comes into effect when you're losing combat, which isn't something you should ever be planning to do with such an expensive unit, IMO.

The way I see it you can run them either as a big scary deathstar with a cauldron and/or multiple characters, or as a small unit which will likely stick around and hold a flank for a while. Their problem I think is their cost - there are other cheaper options for both rolls.

[Daeron]

Well.. With the 7th edition book I've seen them eat up a deathstar unit of COKs in a single round of combat (Hydra banner, Banner of Hag Graef, 10 big + a BSB) with little more than a razor standard and a peg (whip of agony) master: the BGs were charged, even
I think they have only improved in that ability, be it at a higher cost. For that reason alone, I would never discard them quickly. I share the view that they are somewhat overpriced now, but not by much. Still, with ITP and stubborn, those point aren't likely to be lost unless they are slaughtered to the last man. Even if something goes wrong for a turn.

[T.D.]

I'd like to roll them out with a Bloodwrack Shrine the next time I play an infantry list.

Will report back when I do.

[Gerner]

I'm probably the one active here with the most experience with the Black Guard unit in 8th edition, since I have been using them in almost all of my lists.
Still I'm a fairly new player and have never played Dark Elves before this edition..

Like most average unit its success depends a lot on the player and your opponent. They have been really good in games where I had the upper hand, but not so strong in battle where I either played bad or my opponent was just better.
They will die quickly to everything; Shooting, Magic, Impact Hits, Stomps and normal attacks.
The difficult thing about them now is that they are an expensive all-around unit, so often it is difficult figuring out what you wish to put them up against, on the other hand they fair average against most units so you don't have to worry about most of the match ups.
So why do I keep taking them?
Their three Special Rules: Eternal Hatred, Immune to Psychology and Stubborn
Eternal Hatred: It ensures I get re-rolls even if my opponent has ASF or they stupidily lower their initiative. I need those re-rolls to hit.
Immune to Psychology: It is so nice to know, that your elite unit won't panic, fail their fear or terror test. When elites suddenly do fail, it often swings the match.
Stubborn: It means everything. Sometimes the dices hates us, and this it yet a Special Rule to avoid failures. It's nice to be able to receive a rear charge from a horde with 2xbanners, several ranks and casulties without running away.

I don't care if they win combat, or if they inflict a whole lot of damage. But by god, they should stop dying so much. When they are 15 points a piece it quickly becomes too expensive and even the Sisters becomes better (except they are rare). I even think that Eternal Guards (WE) are better..

I have a suggestion with two new Special Rules:
Bodyguard: Every Black Guard in the unit is considered to be a champion. They can except and challenge other characters. (Just like Grail Knights).
Retaliation: For every succesfull hit (including Impact Hits, Stomps and Thunderstomps) in close combat the Black Guards retailiate with a free attack. They need to roll to hit and to wound as normal. (Inspirered by

Other Ideas: Enemies wishing to strike the Black Guards must re-roll succesfull to hit rolls, 4/5+ ward save (seems boring but helps against everything), -1 to hit or -1 to wound.

I in all honesty think that a ward save (or increase in toughness) is the best thing - just boring.

Too much ranting. Feel free to ask about my experience with them.

[Maimed]

How about:

- Allow Blackguard to deflect/redirect attacks. Blackguard performs a WS test for all successful hits against the unit. If successful, each hit suffers a -1 to wound. Natural dice roll of 1 redirects upon the attacking unit.

- Allow Blackguard to use a WS test against all shooting attacks directed at the unit. If successful, the strength of each incoming attack is calculated at half S value. (Similar to the Blasted Standard for Warriors of Chaos).

WS hexes will make BG vulnerable. We cannot change their gear because it's hard to justify it from a fluff standpoint. This would continue to build on their reputation of being elite combat troops without hopefully making them overpowered.