Spearmen Open for Business

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Subedei
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Post by Subedei »

I much prefer the Str 4 on the charge - mainly because I face so many Toughness 4 or Heavily armoured opponents. The major weakness of the DE list is not units lacking a large number of attacks, but units lacking the strength to wound (and get past even 4+ armour save).

Strength 4, in my experience, vastly improves your chances of wounding with the
-1 as. Don't forget elven units simply don't have the toughness or armour to last more than 2 turns of combat. Str. 4 gives you the chance to severely dent the opposition in the first turn (and with a flanking force, to possibly break an opponent on the turn you charge - that'd be a real novelty!).

Fight in three ranks is rather dull, and far too HE for me. High strength attacks is what the DEs lack.
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Post by Subedei »

Str 4 is in my opinion by far the best option. DEs suffer from a lack of High Strength units, not units with large numbers of attacks.

Str 4 on the charge gives you a unit that can severely dent the opposition on the charge, and even (with a flanking unit) break another unit on the turn they charge. A brilliant option for elves who don't have the numbers or the survivability to last more than two turns of combat.
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Post by Subedei »

Str 4 is in my opinion by far the best option. DEs suffer from a lack of High Strength units, not units with large numbers of attacks.

Str 4 on the charge gives you a unit that can severely dent the opposition on the charge, and even (with a flanking unit) break another unit on the turn they charge. A brilliant option for elves who don't have the numbers or the survivability to last more than two turns of combat.
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Saithis
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Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points... :roll: i already hear the dwarfplayers crying... ;)

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

but... if there is a nice idea... why not... ;)

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
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Saithis
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Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points... :roll: i already hear the dwarfplayers crying... ;)

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

but... if there is a nice idea... why not... ;)

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
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Saithis
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Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points... :roll: i already hear the dwarfplayers crying... ;)

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

but... if there is a nice idea... why not... ;)

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
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Saithis
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Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points... :roll: i already hear the dwarfplayers crying... ;)

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

but... if there is a nice idea... why not... ;)

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
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Saithis
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Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points... :roll: i already hear the dwarfplayers crying... ;)

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

but... if there is a nice idea... why not... ;)

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
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Sulla
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Post by Sulla »

I hope they don't just get a point reduction. I want my spearmen to be able to win combats, not cost less when they die. That isn't an Elven solution.

That's why I said armour piercing (drannach masters) and charge in 2 ranks (ferocious assault). It makes them equivalent to corsairs, maybe even a bit better (at least until flank charged or shot at). Corsairs can win combats, spearmen can't. Thats why they need a boost.

It shouldn't be a defensive boost...that's what our garrison formation is best at.

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Post by Sulla »

I hope they don't just get a point reduction. I want my spearmen to be able to win combats, not cost less when they die. That isn't an Elven solution.

That's why I said armour piercing (drannach masters) and charge in 2 ranks (ferocious assault). It makes them equivalent to corsairs, maybe even a bit better (at least until flank charged or shot at). Corsairs can win combats, spearmen can't. Thats why they need a boost.

It shouldn't be a defensive boost...that's what our garrison formation is best at.

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Post by Purple whisper »

I've been talking to some of the other (non-DE) players here, and they feel that a point reduction would be out of place. Though I feel that such a modification could be somewhat justified by a Dark Elf Special Rule ("Full Mobilization/Plenty of Reserves"), I do feel that it will not be easily accepted by other players.

Considering the other examples of cheaper-then-normal stuff (HE Magic Items, Grave Guard), I think that the fact that this is limited (magic item slots, special choices) makes things less threatening. (Even though it may actually be better).

Point reduction may be a good solution, but a difficult one to get accepted by the rest of the world. So I would be in favour of other solutions (though I must admit that it's difficult to find any other that works).

Something else:
Reader of posts wrote:Superirior trianing: Spearmen unit can make a free reform at the end of it's movement phase.


A big disadvantage of such an option is that this will not make a unit of Spearmen a viable option; it will make a unit of Superior Trained Spearmen a viable option. So you'll not see more Spearmen on the battle field, just one unit of Superior Trained Spearmen. It's a bit like the Garrisson Formation: Warriors armed with Spears get used, but the common Spearregiment doesn't get used.
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Saithis
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Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points... :roll: i already hear the dwarfplayers crying... ;)

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

but... if there is a nice idea... why not... ;)

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
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Maelis
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Post by Maelis »

How about one point reduction and Heavy Armor?
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Post by Maelis »

I think that Cityguards should REPLACE the current spearelves, but if you want to keep the unit, then how about:

-1 pts reduction
HA

Few months ago there was somebody WHY Dark Elves having only T3 and 5000 years of fighting expirience didnt invented the common heavy armour to protect theit weak T3 bodies. So here it is - HA for common elves.
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Subedei
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Post by Subedei »

I really don't want Cityguard as the main plastic core option - it's far too defensive for my tastes.

If we must have spearmen, let them have an offensive role, to fit with the rest of the army.

By the way, ALWAYS FIGHT IN TWO RANKS, is the same as the High Elves get, but without their 3 ranks when stationary.
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Post by Sulla »

Subedei wrote:I really don't want Cityguard as the main plastic core option - it's far too defensive for my tastes.

If we must have spearmen, let them have an offensive role, to fit with the rest of the army.

By the way, ALWAYS FIGHT IN TWO RANKS, is the same as the High Elves get, but without their 3 ranks when stationary.



...exactly...but since there is no benefit for standing still, you will be more aggressive than a HE player. Surely that's what we want?
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Post by Langmann »

@ Subedai and sulla:

S4 is only good against very few opponents. Most of them mounted, and I fail to see good how we'll charge those buggers.
Otherwise two S3 attacks is better than 1 S4 attack. If you don't believe me get 100 dice and try it out.

Also making them better than corsairs means they will cost more than corsairs and means that corsairs will be the next "useless" troop we are trying to find a fix for later.

Better to try and find another niche for them, which shouldn't be a pigeonhole use.

@Purple : yes. It is hard to accept points reductions. I have problems with some of my opponents with this at first also. Then I bring up the fact that our spearmen don't "have detachments", "fight in three ranks", "have weapons teams", "cause fear", "when fleeing/breaking are ignored by our cavalry" etc.

So our "superior" fighting ability is supposed to make up for this. But in the case of spearmen it doesn't. I think a 1 point reduction and I'd never use them. 2 points feels right to me. I play two other armies as well, and I don't favor my druchii, though I like them...

@ Dwarf players: yeah our guys could be AS3+ with ha, hw and shield for 9 points(same as dwarf). But dwarfs have better leadership, are T4, and are resolute. We have better mobility and have to outflank him. The game is afoot... :)
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Post by Subedei »

I must say that I couldn't disagree more with Langmann on this one - strength 4 can make a serious difference in combat (much more than a simple mathmatical calculation would suggest). The improved chance to wound, combined with the -1 AS, is nasty in itself (particularly given the proliferation of high toughness/good armour units), Dwarf warriors and Chaos warriors can only save on a 5+ (failing two thirds of the time). If used to charge a flank, str. 4 units can be lethal (especially combined with a war banner), against most core units, such a unit will break an enemy in one turn (extremely useful for a Dark Elf army). Got to hit the flank though, not always easy to do, even with mv 5...

I also play Chaos, aside from my Druchii, and I can attest that str 4, especially firing, is very much nastier than str 3. Look how Druchii generals complain about how RXBs, at str 3, are useless against a large selection of units in other armies, and how life would be easier with str 4 firing, etc etc. Overall, in my experience at least, str 4 does make a difference.
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Dark reaper
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Post by Dark reaper »

Yeah, but spears are not missile weapons you know. The str4 won't make much difference. Trust me.
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Saithis
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Post by Saithis »

yes, S4 would be much more efficient and that's why we won't get through with it!
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Post by Medved »

cmon guys, str4 or -1 armor will not change anything....just try it (wich i did, for str4)
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Post by Draichlord »

Fight in 3 ranks is the best answer, but I don't think it right to copy the HE
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Post by Draichlord »

2 playtest games at 8pts each with a 1pt hvy arm option for 9pt total worked well for holding long enough to get in a flank charge. Better than before. Take 20 w/lt arm @160pts or 18 w/hvy arm @162pts, your choice.
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/\\//\
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Post by /\\//\ »

Ok at the moment the current Annual proposal (that I've seen) has Spear Elves at 7 pts/model with the option to take heavy armour for +1 pt/model. In many ways I think this is fine as they are much more solid on the defense now yet still do not make Corsairs obsolete. However I thought perhaps Spearmen should still have an offensive role too. They are Dark Elves after all. So I came up with the following simple adjustments:

Dark Elf Warriors - 8 pts/model

Weapons and armour: Spear and light armour.
Options: May replace spears with repeater crossbows for +3 pts/model.
May be equipped with shields for +1 pt/model
May be equipped with heavy armour for +1pt/model but cannot use the Garrison Formation.

Special rules: Armour Piercing spears (i.e. Warriors with RxB's don't have armour piercing.)


Basically they are 7 pts/model which has ben increased to 8 pts for armour piercing. This will give them a bit more punch offensively (and defensively) but still they retain their defensive nature.



P.S. I think S4 is totally out of the question. Why should every citizen in Naggaroth be stronger than all the High and Wood Elf citizens?
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Post by Subedei »

Armour-Piercing spears, well possibly. But I've got to disagree strongly that str 4 makes little difference, I've been playtesting for the last month, and used correctly with a simultaneous flanking charge, is absolutely lethal. Str 4 work well in conjunction with other units.

I don't agree that str 4 has to mean that Druchii spearmen are STRONGER than their WE/HE counterparts, it could just mean that Druchii are armed with better weapons (it's the weapon not the elf that gives str 4, like halberds do).

Please note, I'm not suggesting making Spearelves into pseudo-halberdiers, but just giving them str 4 on the Charge OR when being charged to the front. Either works for me.

It's different from HEs, and shouldn't be too overpowered.
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