Spearmen Open for Business

This forum is now locked until it is time to start the process of writing the new Dark Elf army book.

Well done to all those who took part!

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Saithis
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Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points... :roll: i already hear the dwarfplayers crying... ;)

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
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Saithis
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Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points... :roll: i already hear the dwarfplayers crying... ;)

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
User avatar
Saithis
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Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points... :roll: i already hear the dwarfplayers crying... ;)

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
User avatar
Saithis
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Posts: 672
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Location: Europe

Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points...

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...
At last, we will have revenge...
User avatar
Saithis
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Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points... :roll: i already hear the dwarfplayers crying... ;)

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
User avatar
Saithis
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Posts: 672
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 6:02 pm
Location: Europe

Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points... :roll: i already hear the dwarfplayers crying... ;)

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
User avatar
Saithis
Highborn
Posts: 672
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 6:02 pm
Location: Europe

Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points... :roll: i already hear the dwarfplayers crying... ;)

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
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Post by Sulla »

Ivelios wrote:I agree that giving them more offensive abilities would make corsairs the useless option. If you give spearmen fight in two ranks on the charge and AP they are a better offensive unit than corsairs which is wrong. Even an offensive list could use a defensive unit or two, and that's what spearmen are, spears are a defensive weapon and we shouldn't change that.



Spearmen should be better than corsairs. At least at fighting rank and file infantry anyway. They should be the backbone of our army (if we use infantry).

As for needing a defensive unit, they will never be as good as cityguard so we shouldn't be going down that route with them. Spearmen should be better fighters than cityguard and similar to corsairs.

As for re-naming the cityguard, I like something like 'household guard' that makes them sound more like a highborn's bodyguard than policemen.
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Post by Maelis »

Your right Langmann, 2 points reduction would be the best, but I would go for 1 point also, as I dont plan to use spearelves in big numbers and I prefer Cityguards.
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Post by Maelis »

Your right Langmann, 2 points reduction would be the best, but I would go for 1 point also, as I dont plan to use spearelves in big numbers and I prefer Cityguards.
"Prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclypsed the sun
an angel has spread his wings
the time has come for bitter things"
-M.M
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Post by Keledron »

Maelis wrote:OK, but what for? Do we realy need it?

Our Cityguards (Drannach Warriors - I realy hate the CG name :) ) are something unique just like HE 3 ranks fighting or arrows with armour piercing for WE archers.

I would make the Drannach Warrirs unit like this

8 pts per model
+1 pts option for a shield
+1 pts option for upgrade to Cityguards formation
--- +3 pts per rxbow option for front rank

and thats it. They are Spearelves, they are Cityguards, they are the sollution for all the spears bitz that we throw away from Dark Elf Warriors Plastics Box Set.

Is still something more needed?

If you rely want some rule for spearelves, then think about the poisoned blades, but I dont think we need ANYTHING else in this subject.


This is by far the simplist solution the plastic box set looks like this was what was really intended as well.

I would also add the f in 3 ranks rule as a standard elf rule as well to this list.

Overall it would have a much more offensive feel to it with a mixture of smaller Garrison formation units flanking a larger spear armed block.

With the extra rank you are always tempted to move the whole lot forward so reducing the effectiveness of the garrison units shooting (-2 to hit when shooting). I also feel this would probably kill off the tendancy to take large (expensive) rxb armed units purely for their superior hth save as is often done currently.

The extra rank does not negate the choice of corsairs as they still benefit from a superiour AS when advancing into combat, but both units would deliver the same amount to hitting power, leaving you the choice of a smaller but durable corsair unit or a larger block of less durable spearmen but who are more effective if you have to use them defensively.

Overall this just feels right to me compared to many of the other ideas, the extra S is a lame point as is armour piercing - if you do't have enough attacks its a useless ability - just look at Black Guard in turn 2. The reform idea simply does not reflect the druchii thirst for battle - this is a good idea for HE though with their superiour calmness in battle.

K
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Post by Keledron »

Maelis wrote:OK, but what for? Do we realy need it?

Our Cityguards (Drannach Warriors - I realy hate the CG name :) ) are something unique just like HE 3 ranks fighting or arrows with armour piercing for WE archers.

I would make the Drannach Warrirs unit like this

8 pts per model
+1 pts option for a shield
+1 pts option for upgrade to Cityguards formation
--- +3 pts per rxbow option for front rank

and thats it. They are Spearelves, they are Cityguards, they are the sollution for all the spears bitz that we throw away from Dark Elf Warriors Plastics Box Set.

Is still something more needed?

If you rely want some rule for spearelves, then think about the poisoned blades, but I dont think we need ANYTHING else in this subject.


This is by far the simplist solution the plastic box set looks like this was what was really intended as well.

I would also add the f in 3 ranks rule as a standard elf rule as well to this list.

Overall it would have a much more offensive feel to it with a mixture of smaller Garrison formation units flanking a larger spear armed block.

With the extra rank you are always tempted to move the whole lot forward so reducing the effectiveness of the garrison units shooting (-2 to hit when shooting). I also feel this would probably kill off the tendancy to take large (expensive) rxb armed units purely for their superior hth save as is often done currently.

The extra rank does not negate the choice of corsairs as they still benefit from a superiour AS when advancing into combat, but both units would deliver the same amount to hitting power, leaving you the choice of a smaller but durable corsair unit or a larger block of less durable spearmen but who are more effective if you have to use them defensively.

Overall this just feels right to me compared to many of the other ideas, the extra S is a lame point as is armour piercing - if you do't have enough attacks its a useless ability - just look at Black Guard in turn 2. The reform idea simply does not reflect the druchii thirst for battle - this is a good idea for HE though with their superiour calmness in battle.

K
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Post by Maelis »

Your right Langmann, 2 points reduction would be the best, but I would go for 1 point also, as I dont plan to use spearelves in big numbers and I prefer Cityguards.
"Prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclypsed the sun
an angel has spread his wings
the time has come for bitter things"
-M.M
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Post by Maelis »

Your right Langmann, 2 points reduction would be the best, but I would go for 1 point also, as I dont plan to use spearelves in big numbers and I prefer Cityguards.
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Post by Maelis »

Your right Langmann, 2 points reduction would be the best, but I would go for 1 point also, as I dont plan to use spearelves in big numbers and I prefer Cityguards.
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Post by Maelis »

Your right Langmann, 2 points reduction would be the best, but I would go for 1 point also, as I dont plan to use spearelves in big numbers and I prefer Cityguards.
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Post by Maelis »

Your right Langmann, 2 points reduction would be the best, but I would go for 1 point also, as I dont plan to use spearelves in big numbers and I prefer Cityguards.
"Prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclypsed the sun
an angel has spread his wings
the time has come for bitter things"
-M.M
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Post by Keledron »

Maelis wrote:OK, but what for? Do we realy need it?

Our Cityguards (Drannach Warriors - I realy hate the CG name :) ) are something unique just like HE 3 ranks fighting or arrows with armour piercing for WE archers.

I would make the Drannach Warrirs unit like this

8 pts per model
+1 pts option for a shield
+1 pts option for upgrade to Cityguards formation
--- +3 pts per rxbow option for front rank

and thats it. They are Spearelves, they are Cityguards, they are the sollution for all the spears bitz that we throw away from Dark Elf Warriors Plastics Box Set.

Is still something more needed?

If you rely want some rule for spearelves, then think about the poisoned blades, but I dont think we need ANYTHING else in this subject.


This is by far the simplist solution the plastic box set looks like this was what was really intended as well.

I would also add the f in 3 ranks rule as a standard elf rule as well to this list.

Overall it would have a much more offensive feel to it with a mixture of smaller Garrison formation units flanking a larger spear armed block.

With the extra rank you are always tempted to move the whole lot forward so reducing the effectiveness of the garrison units shooting (-2 to hit when shooting). I also feel this would probably kill off the tendancy to take large (expensive) rxb armed units purely for their superior hth save as is often done currently.

The extra rank does not negate the choice of corsairs as they still benefit from a superiour AS when advancing into combat, but both units would deliver the same amount to hitting power, leaving you the choice of a smaller but durable corsair unit or a larger block of less durable spearmen but who are more effective if you have to use them defensively.

Overall this just feels right to me compared to many of the other ideas, the extra S is a lame point as is armour piercing - if you do't have enough attacks its a useless ability - just look at Black Guard in turn 2. The reform idea simply does not reflect the druchii thirst for battle - this is a good idea for HE though with their superiour calmness in battle.

K
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Post by Keledron »

Maelis wrote:OK, but what for? Do we realy need it?

Our Cityguards (Drannach Warriors - I realy hate the CG name :) ) are something unique just like HE 3 ranks fighting or arrows with armour piercing for WE archers.

I would make the Drannach Warrirs unit like this

8 pts per model
+1 pts option for a shield
+1 pts option for upgrade to Cityguards formation
--- +3 pts per rxbow option for front rank

and thats it. They are Spearelves, they are Cityguards, they are the sollution for all the spears bitz that we throw away from Dark Elf Warriors Plastics Box Set.

Is still something more needed?

If you rely want some rule for spearelves, then think about the poisoned blades, but I dont think we need ANYTHING else in this subject.


This is by far the simplist solution the plastic box set looks like this was what was really intended as well.

I would also add the f in 3 ranks rule as a standard elf rule as well to this list.

Overall it would have a much more offensive feel to it with a mixture of smaller Garrison formation units flanking a larger spear armed block.

With the extra rank you are always tempted to move the whole lot forward so reducing the effectiveness of the garrison units shooting (-2 to hit when shooting). I also feel this would probably kill off the tendancy to take large (expensive) rxb armed units purely for their superior hth save as is often done currently.

The extra rank does not negate the choice of corsairs as they still benefit from a superiour AS when advancing into combat, but both units would deliver the same amount to hitting power, leaving you the choice of a smaller but durable corsair unit or a larger block of less durable spearmen but who are more effective if you have to use them defensively.

Overall this just feels right to me compared to many of the other ideas, the extra S is a lame point as is armour piercing - if you do't have enough attacks its a useless ability - just look at Black Guard in turn 2. The reform idea simply does not reflect the druchii thirst for battle - this is a good idea for HE though with their superiour calmness in battle.

K
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Post by Reader of posts »

langmann wrote: I think the free reform would be better suited to corsairs first of all, and secondly make a better banner than anything else.


Why should corsairs have the free reform? They have had different training. Corsairs are like the marines, spearmen/CG the army. The superior training rule is much like 'counts troops' for the empire, or 'first among equals' for the high elves.
I can't see how this couldn't be seen as an option. All it is is an upgrade nothing more. If we were to include this in our revision, we could test both spearmen at 8pts and the free reform separately or in combination.
People thought it would be abusive to use free reform spearmen in vast numbers of units. Now, with my rule, this can't be done. I'm not seeing the problem here.

langmann wrote:Secondly I hate to say it but DE may be an offensive army, but they are certainly not fast.

I think you are talikng about foot armies. Sadly cavalry dominates this game, so we can't really change anything for the DE foot troops. Anyway, We can make armies which are up the opponent's nose in turn 2 with our DE, so we don't really lack speed either.

langmann wrote:Therefore I really like the idea of the spearmen being very cheap and possibly coming with heavy armour. That way you could make a large unit that can take a charge from all cavalry rather cheaply. (Remember pretty much no cavalry can beat a unit of spearmen unless the cavalry is stacked with a lord/hero or it has autobreak function with outnumber...).


It is a good idea. However spearmen with HA will be almsot the smae troops as stormvermin with shields. Both are at 9 points, but SV have worse I and LD. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but I thought it we worth the mentioning.
Leaving the above aside, this would be the first elf foot regiment with a 3+ save, although they do have weapon teams (I don't consider the +! to flee a real bonus). All I'm saying is that doesn't really sound elfy to me.

langmann wrote:I think spearmen are defensive by nature, and anything that changes that to make them better is just going to make corsairs, executioners and witch elves useless, or pigeon hole the spearmen into a role where the only cheap plastic unit we have is only useful on certain battlefields.

Agreed

langmann wrote:Finally it makes garrison formation/cityguard an attractive addition to spearmen without making spearmen obsolete. (Garrison would cost 10 points/model, 13 for rxb as usual.)
I think DA has hit the nail on the head.

Agreed, although I might have a problem with heavy elves like I said before.

Let's face it Corsairs, CG or spearmen are not really the damage dealers of our army. Although corsairs can be nice on the offensive, and Cg on defensive, both arn't really known for their incredible quality at doing either job. However, both have a the same weakness, they are vulnarable.

Spearmen with HA not only will spearmen be better at defending then CG, becuase they can get a 3+ save, they will also be better at attacking.
Spearmen will be cheaper than both these units, and will be far more durable. Too bad they arn't that great at dealing damage, and doesn't matter a whole lot when you put a noble in the spearmen.

The only corsair bonus point is that they can have a magic banner and have 2 attacks on charge. But they still are more expensive and less resistant (spearmen also get a 4+ save against shooting, just like corsairs).
CG can shoot, but they are far more expensive and far less manouverable.

Combine this with the fact that spearmen don't look anymore heavily armoured then city guard, and this whole idea of HA sounds ridiculous. It would be the same as the exes with LA in the former army list, only now spearmen get HA when they clearly are wearing LA.
War is not about who is right, but who is left.
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Post by Reader of posts »

langmann wrote: I think the free reform would be better suited to corsairs first of all, and secondly make a better banner than anything else.


Why should corsairs have the free reform? They have had different training. Corsairs are like the marines, spearmen/CG the army. The superior training rule is much like 'counts troops' for the empire, or 'first among equals' for the high elves.
I can't see how this couldn't be seen as an option. All it is is an upgrade nothing more. If we were to include this in our revision, we could test both spearmen at 8pts and the free reform separately or in combination.
People thought it would be abusive to use free reform spearmen in vast numbers of units. Now, with my rule, this can't be done. I'm not seeing the problem here.

langmann wrote:Secondly I hate to say it but DE may be an offensive army, but they are certainly not fast.

I think you are talikng about foot armies. Sadly cavalry dominates this game, so we can't really change anything for the DE foot troops. Anyway, We can make armies which are up the opponent's nose in turn 2 with our DE, so we don't really lack speed either.

langmann wrote:Therefore I really like the idea of the spearmen being very cheap and possibly coming with heavy armour. That way you could make a large unit that can take a charge from all cavalry rather cheaply. (Remember pretty much no cavalry can beat a unit of spearmen unless the cavalry is stacked with a lord/hero or it has autobreak function with outnumber...).


It is a good idea. However spearmen with HA will be almsot the smae troops as stormvermin with shields. Both are at 9 points, but SV have worse I and LD. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but I thought it we worth the mentioning.
Leaving the above aside, this would be the first elf foot regiment with a 3+ save, although they do have weapon teams (I don't consider the +! to flee a real bonus). All I'm saying is that doesn't really sound elfy to me.

langmann wrote:I think spearmen are defensive by nature, and anything that changes that to make them better is just going to make corsairs, executioners and witch elves useless, or pigeon hole the spearmen into a role where the only cheap plastic unit we have is only useful on certain battlefields.

Agreed

langmann wrote:Finally it makes garrison formation/cityguard an attractive addition to spearmen without making spearmen obsolete. (Garrison would cost 10 points/model, 13 for rxb as usual.)
I think DA has hit the nail on the head.

Agreed, although I might have a problem with heavy elves like I said before.

Let's face it Corsairs, CG or spearmen are not really the damage dealers of our army. Although corsairs can be nice on the offensive, and Cg on defensive, both arn't really known for their incredible quality at doing either job. However, both have a the same weakness, they are vulnarable.

Spearmen with HA not only will spearmen be better at defending then CG, becuase they can get a 3+ save, they will also be better at attacking.
Spearmen will be cheaper than both these units, and will be far more durable. Too bad they arn't that great at dealing damage, and doesn't matter a whole lot when you put a noble in the spearmen.

The only corsair bonus point is that they can have a magic banner and have 2 attacks on charge. But they still are more expensive and less resistant (spearmen also get a 4+ save against shooting, just like corsairs).
CG can shoot, but they are far more expensive and far less manouverable.

Combine this with the fact that spearmen don't look anymore heavily armoured then city guard, and this whole idea of HA sounds ridiculous. It would be the same as the exes with LA in the former army list, only now spearmen get HA when they clearly are wearing LA.
War is not about who is right, but who is left.
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Post by Reader of posts »

langmann wrote: I think the free reform would be better suited to corsairs first of all, and secondly make a better banner than anything else.


Why should corsairs have the free reform? They have had different training. Corsairs are like the marines, spearmen/CG the army. The superior training rule is much like 'counts troops' for the empire, or 'first among equals' for the high elves.
I can't see how this couldn't be seen as an option. All it is is an upgrade nothing more. If we were to include this in our revision, we could test both spearmen at 8pts and the free reform separately or in combination.
People thought it would be abusive to use free reform spearmen in vast numbers of units. Now, with my rule, this can't be done. I'm not seeing the problem here.

langmann wrote:Secondly I hate to say it but DE may be an offensive army, but they are certainly not fast.

I think you are talikng about foot armies. Sadly cavalry dominates this game, so we can't really change anything for the DE foot troops. Anyway, We can make armies which are up the opponent's nose in turn 2 with our DE, so we don't really lack speed either.

langmann wrote:Therefore I really like the idea of the spearmen being very cheap and possibly coming with heavy armour. That way you could make a large unit that can take a charge from all cavalry rather cheaply. (Remember pretty much no cavalry can beat a unit of spearmen unless the cavalry is stacked with a lord/hero or it has autobreak function with outnumber...).


It is a good idea. However spearmen with HA will be almsot the same troops as stormvermin with shields. Both are at 9 points, but SV have worse I and LD. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but I thought it we worth the mentioning.
Leaving the above aside, this would be the first elf foot regiment with a 3+ save, although they do have weapon teams (I don't consider the +! to flee a real bonus). All I'm saying is that doesn't really sound elfy to me.

langmann wrote:I think spearmen are defensive by nature, and anything that changes that to make them better is just going to make corsairs, executioners and witch elves useless, or pigeon hole the spearmen into a role where the only cheap plastic unit we have is only useful on certain battlefields.

Agreed

langmann wrote:Finally it makes garrison formation/cityguard an attractive addition to spearmen without making spearmen obsolete. (Garrison would cost 10 points/model, 13 for rxb as usual.)
I think DA has hit the nail on the head.

Agreed, although I might have a problem with heavy elves like I said before.

Let's face it Corsairs, CG or spearmen are not really the damage dealers of our army. Although corsairs can be nice on the offensive, and Cg on defensive, both arn't really known for their incredible quality at doing either job. However, both have a the same weakness, they are vulnarable.

Spearmen with HA not only will spearmen be better at defending then CG, becuase they can get a 3+ save, they will also be better at attacking.
Spearmen will be cheaper than both these units, and will be far more durable. Too bad they arn't that great at dealing damage, and doesn't matter a whole lot when you put a noble in the spearmen.

The only corsair bonus point is that they can have a magic banner and have 2 attacks on charge. But they still are more expensive and less resistant (spearmen also get a 4+ save against shooting, just like corsairs).
CG can shoot, but they are far more expensive and far less manouverable.

Combine this with the fact that spearmen don't look anymore heavily armoured then city guard, and this whole idea of HA sounds ridiculous. It would be the same as the exes with LA in the former army list, only now spearmen get HA when they clearly are wearing LA.
War is not about who is right, but who is left.
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Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points... :roll: i already hear the dwarfplayers crying... ;)

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
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Saithis
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Location: Europe

Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points...

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
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Saithis
Highborn
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Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 6:02 pm
Location: Europe

Post by Saithis »

to give them the option for HA and lower their points would be ok!
but then we could use handweapons with the spearmen -> 3+ AS for 9 points... :roll: i already hear the dwarfplayers crying... ;)

the idea of always attacking in two ranks would make them more offensive... more druchiilike, but would take away an advantage of the corsairs! with HA the speamen are more resistant in combination with spears this is a useful defensive unit!

don't forget: not every unit needs special rules! especially normal spearmen (core!) don't deserve greater rules...

regards Morasul
At last, we will have revenge...
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