Why take Bleakswords and other noob Q's.

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Kygarroth
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Why take Bleakswords and other noob Q's.

Post by Kygarroth »

Forgive this lowly worm and his noobish questions, but putting together my first army list I thought Bleakswords would be cool (Empire habits die slowly I guess), only to make the horrifying discovery that they are exactly the same as Corsairs only with one less attack.

Is that right? Once I add a shield to the Bleaksword, the stats are identical, the AS is the same and so is the cost, but Corsairs get an extra attack? Seems like im missing something here....

The other rookie questions;

How many warlocks? Im thinking of 6, for an extra body, but should I try to carry 10 min. to get a casting bonus?

Where exactly wpould I use the SoS over witch elves? the WE seem to come out ahead due to the save...

Can we make shades work well? I love the idea is all

AND

How many people are taking Assassins? Im dead set on taking one and a Bloowrack Shrine (the model is gorgeous) and want ot make it work well.

Thanks for any help, and I tried finding these topics, but the closest I got was an excellant thread on Ass builds, not weather people use them or not.
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Re: Why take Bleakswords and other noob Q's.

Post by Kurze »

I think you will find that corsairs are actually two points more expensive once you take the compulsory weapon upgrade ( Ahw or rhb)
Corsairs have a 4+ armor save, whereas the bleakswords have 5+ and a 6++ due to parry.
Most people rate the corsairs over the other melee core (aside from witch elves of course), but I have many old sword and board Druchii and damnit I'm gonna use them!
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Gerner
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Re: Why take Bleakswords and other noob Q's.

Post by Gerner »

Hey Kygarroth and welcome.
Question are only noob questions if you never learn the answer. ;)

Kurze helped you a lot with the Corsair so I will jump to the next ones.

Most people prefer 5-6 warlocks, but other like to have 10. Beside the cast bonus they are a very good combat unit. It is personal taste so if you can try both.

Hmn.. I would say Witch Elves are better since they are both cheaper and fill up core. That said if you can get the Sisters into combat they are very good with their ward save (4+) and remove rank bonus's. There are some better threads explaining that already here on the forum.

Shades work very well. Most people take 5-8 and gear them with great weapons. Taking them with AHW is also an option, but possible not as good.

Not many. They can work (see the Hashini Loadout thread), but compared to Masters they pale somewhat. :)
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Re: Why take Bleakswords and other noob Q's.

Post by Kygarroth »

Thankyou both for the fast replies, I've got some things to think about now I guess.

@Kurze, without having run numbers, It looks like swords might be a really good horde unit, cheap and having the numbers to make the 6++ count. While corsair might do best in groups less then 30 to max out the AHW attacks - is that about right? And lastly, would the extra attacks from spearmen be less useful in a horde then the swords ++?

@gerner, that is very kind thankyou. I'm seeing the warlocks as an excellant harrasing and fast support unit due to the ward save and spells, I may just run 8-10 to make them solid. Good news on shades, GW scout skulkers are to good to ignore.
As for the witches, I may consider running a medium size with CoB but SoS with a bloodweack could work well too I think, what would you suggest?

Lastly, as a horde unit w/ bloodwrack shrine bsb and lvl4, would spears or sword with shields be better?


I promise I'm learning and scouring the boards for info.

Thanks so much guys :D
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Gerner
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Re: Why take Bleakswords and other noob Q's.

Post by Gerner »

Kygarroth wrote:@gerner, that is very kind thankyou. I'm seeing the warlocks as an excellant harrasing and fast support unit due to the ward save and spells, I may just run 8-10 to make them solid. Good news on shades, GW scout skulkers are to good to ignore.
As for the witches, I may consider running a medium size with CoB but SoS with a bloodweack could work well too I think, what would you suggest?

Lastly, as a horde unit w/ bloodwrack shrine bsb and lvl4, would spears or sword with shields be better?

Well, they are more a supporting and harrasing unit when they are 5-6 and a solid combat unit when 10+. :)
Both are amazing, really depends on your list. The Witches with Cauldron is very offensive (and expensive) while the Sisters with the Shrine are more defensive in melee.

I would say spears, but I rarely use any core beside Dark Riders and Witch Elves. :)
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Re: Why take Bleakswords and other noob Q's.

Post by Setomidor »

I think the Bleakswords models are awesome, and that's one strong reason to play them. :) Game-wise I would rank Dark Riders and WEs as the best core options, but the difference in power level for the other three units are minor.

I personally can't see myself getting any SoS models, I find the core WE to be superior (on paper) to the point that I won't even try the SoS :) the WE are great though, in small units, big units, with or without the Cauldron, they rule regardless of setup!
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Re: Why take Bleakswords and other noob Q's.

Post by Dirty Mac »

Shades, Lets see. always ran 2 units of 10 in my lists with the 7th ed book.
They hit on 2's before modifiers , and can march and shoot, Basically they have a 34'' range, they are -1 to shoot at with BS shooting, They can deploy anywhere within 12'' of the enemy, handy when you want to deploy in a building in the middle of the Battlefield, if you take Additional hand weapons they have 2 WS 5 attacks each, Now that they have ASF, they can take GW and strike at Init 5 which is still pretty good. They also have Murderous Prowess so they re-roll ones to wound. I have had them kill units of knights, war Machines, and thin down ranks before committing troops to combat, and that was with the last book.
Combined with "The Withering" which is a hex from the lore of Shadow that lowers toughness, they become brutal, as does all your other shooting. "The Withering" is a Remains in play spell too, which is a bonus. I always take shades, And I always will.
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Re: Why take Bleakswords and other noob Q's.

Post by Calisson »

1. Spears, swords or AHW corsairs?
Corsairs are more expensive but have more attacks in every direction, even in small numbers, and have a better save.
Spears are less expensive and have as many attacks as corsairs, but only in the front and only when in large numbers.
Swords are less expensive, too, have less attacks, but get the 6++ parry save in the front only.

If all you need is bodies to survive as long as possible, then take swords. That provides the best fuel for dagger-happy sorceresses.
If all you need is to be steadfast, then swords will provide that longer than anyone else - while some other troops provide the active kills.
If you face high S attacks, then swords are better for the 6++.
If you face low S attacks, then corsairs are better for the 4+.
If you wouldn't mind your steadfast-providing unit to score some kills as well (facing rubbish troops), then spears are better.
If you want a resistant babysitting unit for your sorceress, then corsairs are better, because they resist better magic missiles, and they will strike ASF with more attacks versus light chaff sent mage-hunting.
If you want a real fighting unit which is not frenzied, then corsairs are better because they keep their fighting potential even in smaller numbers.


2. SoS or WE?
These girls are extremely different.
WE fill the core mandatory part of the army, while SoS compete with other rares (shrine, warlocks, Kbeast).

WE and SoS can work in MSU, WE providing plenty of attacks, SoS denying opponent's static combat resolution.

Either WE+COB or SoS+shrine make a large part of the army, requiring you to build the rest of the army around. Both are proven in combat to be effective.
WE have many attacks and synergize very well with the COB. You need to control their frenzy and let them charge.
SoS are very resistant in melee and synergize very well with the shrine. You can add a life sorc inside the unit and let them charge, but you need real killers around to countercharge.


3. Shades
These are in the agile troop category, i.e. they are not there to kill, but to control the enemy.
Agile troops include DR, harpies, peggymasters, warlocks. All of them are there to kill warmachines, interpose as speed bumps, fight light chaff... Each of them have their unique advantages.


4. Warlocks.
Not only they fill an agile unit role, but also a magic-user role.
For most people, the min size is enough.


5. Assassins.
Their role is not obvious.
Their problem is that they will die quickly, and have little time to be useful before that.
So far, D.net has not discovered a real good use. We will keep trying.
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Re: Why take Bleakswords and other noob Q's.

Post by Kygarroth »

Firslty, ill try to write all this up for a new comers list of pointers, if its useful.

Thankyou @gerner and @setomidor - Ive been struggling to make real use of anything other then WE and DR too, im trying to write a fairly mid-competitive but fluffy list containing a strong city guard element, but I get stuck on the WE raw power that is making me really wonder how to use the Bleakswords and Darkspears effectivly.


and thankyou @Calisson for the in depth run down. Looks like the AHW corsairs are best all rounders with the swords then spears and the WE in a poisoned hand-to-hand class of there frenzied own.

So far im looking at a horde of Corsairs to hold a BSB and Sorceress. Advantage is a better all comers unit for lower points games whic I can break up at a later date if I get a WE horde and CoB.

Shadess and warlocks are looking like they could synergise quite well on the same flank, perhaps the same flank as my RBT will deploy.

And so it looks pretty much like any of these choices are viable enough (with a little list tinkering) to make rule-of-cool the number 1 priority, whic is somethin im very happy about :)

Too bad about the assassins though. Seems like I can make a better one with a dark steed and scales.



(p.s; lastly, Blackguard or Executioners? Most lists are taking exec., but I looove the BG minis - is there an overwhelming difference? (to me the slight cost increase is well worth the extra A and I, though the lack of KB is an obvious issue)

-edit- WHOOOA I just realised the difference is S between the two, I now see the difference in units and potential application so no problems there anymore :D
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Re: Why take Bleakswords and other noob Q's.

Post by Calisson »

BG are the best all around troop, i.e. any other troop is better than BG at something, and any role is better suited to something else than BG.
BG are better than anyone to be stubborn, though. That means that they can survive better than anyone underdog fights (call that "speed bump").
Take BG either for this specialized role, in small numbers, or if you want generalists.

Execs are specialists: they are the best can openers. But their attacks are less reliable than any other DE, because they don't have the ASF (which makes rerolling vs lesser I).
Most people would take Execs over BG, because core troops already have plenty of low S attacks, so execs high S are always useful.
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Re: Why take Bleakswords and other noob Q's.

Post by Askador »

Kygarroth wrote:Forgive this lowly worm and his noobish questions, but putting together my first army list I thought Bleakswords would be cool (Empire habits die slowly I guess), only to make the horrifying discovery that they are exactly the same as Corsairs only with one less attack.

Is that right? Once I add a shield to the Bleaksword, the stats are identical, the AS is the same and so is the cost, but Corsairs get an extra attack? Seems like im missing something here....

The other rookie questions;

How many warlocks? Im thinking of 6, for an extra body, but should I try to carry 10 min. to get a casting bonus?

Where exactly wpould I use the SoS over witch elves? the WE seem to come out ahead due to the save...

Can we make shades work well? I love the idea is all

AND

How many people are taking Assassins? Im dead set on taking one and a Bloowrack Shrine (the model is gorgeous) and want ot make it work well.

Thanks for any help, and I tried finding these topics, but the closest I got was an excellant thread on Ass builds, not weather people use them or not.


I can give you some personal opinions. I think some will disagree about it always depends on your Playstyle.

1: I think the Swordman are kinda useless. I see no reason to use them. Even if you take Crossbowman they still can have the 5+ and 6++ with shield and also shoot very good. Its always worth the point i think.
And with Corsairs and WE in core they have a hard time to make it on the field.

2: For the Warloks. I play them in a group of 5 or in a block of 9 with a Wizard on hose inside. Its a good carry für a Death magic Lady. Dath magic has a low range and with fast Cav. you can get her where you want (With vanguard) her and you still can attack something with this block. Its also a Wizard level 3 with 9 Warloks and a Wizard.

3: No idea.. i cant use them really.

4: Shades are great. They shoot the heck out of units like Ogres and still can go in melee if they have a Two Hand sword. The good thing is they can march and still shoot. you can mostly always avoid beeing attaked. They run around enemy units and shoot and if you want you attack from the flank or the back. Just watch out of Fire Salamanders. Those beasts toast them.

5: I loves the Assassin in the last book. Now i think he is not worth his points. Even he does no damage or he has no saves. Both versions are not very useful.
For the Bloodwreck Shrine: I like the model. I usualy put it in a horde of Executeners. Its not expensive. You can get the Hord formation very easy with the shrine in the middle. The Leadership buff and debuff is handy and the shooting attack, inpact hits and fear is really cool.
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Kygarroth
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Re: Why take Bleakswords and other noob Q's.

Post by Kygarroth »

After a few days of theory craft ive come to the conclusion the difference is you. Sorry. The difference in surivability is about 1 wound over a horde unit in both shooting and hand to hand. Its really just down to preference for onemodel over another. -deit- Spears Vs. shields-edit-

A shield on the Dark shards just makes sense to me, they are worth the investment considering how much more expensive they are to begin with, also as Askador said, they get the 5+, 6++ of swordsmen. If I wanted an infintry horde army, it would be 2 big blocks of spears with at least 2 15-20 man blacks of shards.

Im going to play the 9man warlock unit with LadyDeath, nice idea there!.

Ill update if anythign comes from it, but I think we have all our answers lol.
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Re: Why take Bleakswords and other noob Q's.

Post by Vulcan »

I have a hard time justifying bleakswords as well. Considering that in close combat, darkshards are just as effective AND darkshards have a decent - not great, but decent - shooting function, there doesn't seem to be much purpose to bleakswords. I've used bleaksword models to bulk out darkshard units in the past.

Until 8E, Witches were Special choices, As core, they're almost TOO good. They're easily the strongest of the core melee choices. They tear through most other army's core units - and quite a few specials - like a chainsaw. But they also have their weaknesses. They tend to bounce off of anything with a high armor save, and they WILL take casualties in every combat. They're a razor that quickly gets ground away to nothingness if you are not careful with them. They are also vulnerable to frenzy-baiting, so use your chaff to block their charge lanes until YOU want them to charge.

Warlocks are an awesome fast cavalry choice. Even if they never cast a spell, they're great at chaff/chaff control roles. Their spells are a bonus.

Sisters of Slaughter are solid anvil troops. Their job is to pin an enemy in place while a hammer unit maneuvers into the enemy's flank.

Shades, being scouts, are indispensable. You want these in your army. I use them in two units of 5. They can be used to block vanguard moves, hunt war machines, do a suicide-charge to assassinate an enemy character, and just generally harrass and distract the enemy. If your enemy turns one of his combat blocks around to chase your shades, that unit is out of the main combat, giving you the advantage.

(Cheapest and easiest way to get shade models is to use Corsairs, but use Miliput or Green Stuff to smooth over the scales on the cloak. You could also use a Dremel to remove the scales, but that can be tricky in the deeper folds.)
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