COK

Dread_knight666 · Post by **Dread_knight666** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:31 am

I am curious how peoples attitudes have changed towards COK since the release of the new book? I know previously it seemed many people simply wouldn't take them, because of the risk stupidity causes. But I find they are an excellent choice and many opponents downright fear them on the table top. Sure they are stupid, but they have alot of things in their advantage, high Ld, I, WS and even S for elves. Fear is huge too, probably their most powerful ability. I almost think that we have some of the best knights in the game considering their point cost, sure Chaos knights and blood knights will rock them, but they are both substantially more points wise, I think you could almost get two for the price of one BK or CKofC.

Now giving them the hydra banner seems too good to be true. I tried this once and I was rather shocked with how powerful the unit became, nothing else in our list can make the HB more worthwhile. Nothing can really take a charge from COK with this banner, or at least this has been my limited experience. Yoiu can really shake things up with a shadow mage following close behind too! A hydra banner charge on turn one would be so crushing and unexpected!

Sure stupidity sucks, but I think they have retained stupidity to keep the points lower than usual. I honestly think their biggest disadvantage is their movement of 7... I wish they could move 8, that extra inch would give them the edge against most other heavy cav. Movement 7 just seems like they are being penalized for barding.

Gorenut · Post by **Gorenut** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:51 am

Yea.. I don't think anyone complains about these guys at all. I'm sure all around the board, people have positive thoughts about them now. I think they're awesome.. with the right banner combinations and with aid of the Cauldron of Blood, they can easily become even more devastating than Blood Knights and Chaos Knights.

Balthamael · Post by **Balthamael** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:50 am

With the pointdrop they were given, CoKs have become a permanent part of my list. They are in my opinion the best heavy hitters in our Army Book. The Knights are faster than any other of our hitters (since Chariots can't march) and pack a decent punch. I try to not compare them to Dragon Princes though, who has M8, A2, ASF and no Stupidity for 3 more points. (They don't cause fear though)

In the previous Army Book I tended to go for Chariots rather than Knights due to the 2-for-1 rule. That way I always had one chariot that could do the job while the other one went stupid. Now that I no longer can field as many Chariots, the CoKs have found their way back in. They are now more affordable and with Harpies beeing Core, I have one more Special Slot that can be used for heavy hitters than before.

Post by **Dalamar** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:59 am

Dragon Princes also have only S3 which is a big thing.

Balthamael · Post by **Balthamael** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:11 am

Dalamar wrote:Dragon Princes also have only S3 which is a big thing.

Oh, yeah. I totally forgot that CoKs got a nice Strength upgrade too. That's what I get for posting at 7 in the morning. Well, they really have become a must-take for me in the new AB.

Azure · Post by **Azure** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:14 am

Though I used to be a strong naysayer in CoK, Strength 4 has shown me the light. They hit hard... REAL HARD.

Unit of 6 with RoH and full command. Warbanner if you have the extra points.

-Rex

Milney · Post by **Milney** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:19 am

I still try and avoid using them, as stupidity has always hindered my plans.

However after seeing that my GT list was so similar to other Druchii GT lists this year I've decided to use a unit of 6, with a Hydra BSB and a Cold One Sorceress (Yes, you heard me!) just to see if I can get these to actually work xD

Steve tu · Post by **Steve tu** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:11 am

In my last few games the unit of 6 with RoH and Standard of Slaughter has been the one main consistent performer. So am going to try out 2 units of 6, the other unit with the warbanner and see how they do.

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:27 am

they have been improved greatly, both by getting +1 strength and by gaining hatred, which further enhance the value of high stength. now they are definitely a very viable choice, especially when carrying a warbaner and joined by a hydra-banner BSB - in this setup they can break most any fully ranked unit by simply charging front (unless the unit has special rules for break tests, like stubborn or unbreakable).

Victor simic · Post by **Victor simic** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:03 am

Yeah Stupidity is a curse, but I have actually stuck with them since I started with the Dark Elves, and that was when CO`s were mighty indeed and Stupidity could be mitigated with a 10 pt. banner.

Even throughout the last edition of our AB when COK`s were much maligned, I stuck with them. And yes, Stupidity DID confound me on occasion. It didn`t lose me battles (maybe once or twice), but it sure frustrated me. But I always felt that Fear, 2+AS, S4 Mounts, S6 on the Charge, and L9 (post revision), was worth taking. Plus, the Hydra Banner was always devastating, even with the old AB. My COK`s suitibly kitted out with BSB with HB, and a Highborn with the Hydra Blade, absolutely SMASHED all comers (well...most comers). With the new AB this combo is simply MORE devastating. S4 basic for Knights is a BIG boost.

Now, things are even better. I know many Druchii Generals forsook COK`s in the past due to high pt. cost and Stupidity. It`s good to see people using them again.

Maybe I caught Stupidity from the Cold Ones, but I always persevered with them. I`ve gotta say that they performed well much more than they went Stupid. I just lived with that particular liability.

I`m sure that those among us that have persevered with COK`s feel vindicated to a certain degree now that GW has made them more viable. They were always MEANT to be good. Now they ARE good.

Well done GW, and about time.

and with aid of the Cauldron of Blood

I don`t mean to be a biatch, but the CoB only bestows Blessings on Khainite units/characters. I myself reckon that COK`s SHOULD be Khainite according to fluff I`ve read in previous AB`s, but their not.

Unless you meant that the CoB could help support the COK`s in some other way, which would be perfectly viable, say by bestowing a Blessing on a Khainite unit supporting a COK charge or whatever.

Post by **Calisson** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:29 am

dread_knight666 wrote:I honestly think their biggest disadvantage is their movement of 7... I wish they could move 8, that extra inch would give them the edge against most other heavy cav.

That is a real problem when I am facing Bretonians and my CoK receive the charge, same with HE. My tactical skills are not sufficient to prevent that.
Another difficulty I have is with anything that ignores armor saves: goblin fanatics, many spells, some magic or rune weapons. There, their E3 is dramatic and often leads to the loss of this very expensive unit. The unit gets a lot of attention from my opponents and they often find a way to ruin my plans.

Derikari · Post by **Derikari** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:51 am

I don`t mean to be a biatch, but the CoB only bestows Blessings on Khainite units/characters

The CoB isn't limited to Khanite units/characters, they just automatically get stubborn if close enough.

Cisse · Post by **Cisse** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:00 am

Balthamael wrote:
Dalamar wrote:Dragon Princes also have only S3 which is a big thing.

Oh, yeah. I totally forgot that CoKs got a nice Strength upgrade too. That's what I get for posting at 7 in the morning. Well, they really have become a must-take for me in the new AB.

And the COK's cause fear, they have hatred, and their mounts have S4 as wel. Yes the dragon princes have some advantages, but the COK's are certainly just as good a buy for their points. I think fear evens out nicely with stupidity; I even think fear is better than stupidity is bad (if you get my drift). Perhaps you fail a LD9 test and are stupid for a turn, but then again the enemy may just as well lose a LD test as well and not be able to charge due to fear.

M7, meh. It's the same as almost every other heavy cav unit, bar Bret and HE cavalry. With some harpies/dark riders to use bait and flee tactics, I think it's perfectly possible to get the charge on even these foes.

Commander qupie · Post by **Commander qupie** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:26 am

here is your solution:
banner of hag greaf...
6 COK with crimson death champ and hydra banner BSB that will give even a charging bret unit a nice headache:
28 str 4 attacks and 3 str 6 attacks... (or even give the bsb a halbert because you will defeat about anything if you charge anyway)
That combined with hatred:
14 ws 5 attacks, 12 hits, 8 wounds
14 ws 3(or was it 2?) attacks, 10.5 hits, 7 wounds
15 3+ saves means about 5 death knights, and then the crimson death comes after that... (to take down that BSB or Champion)
just got to love that....
Edit: damn bret lance formation... 8 attacks less...

Milney · Post by **Milney** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:52 pm

Victor Simic wrote:
and with aid of the Cauldron of Blood
I don`t mean to be a biatch, but the CoB only bestows Blessings on Khainite units/characters. I myself reckon that COK`s SHOULD be Khainite according to fluff I`ve read in previous AB`s, but their not.

Unless you meant that the CoB could help support the COK`s in some other way, which would be perfectly viable, say by bestowing a Blessing on a Khainite unit supporting a COK charge or whatever.

Nub. Only Stubborn is limited to Khainite units. Blessings can affect anyone (except Harpies and Mounts).

Comrade igor · Post by **Comrade igor** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:08 pm

Azure wrote:Though I used to be a strong naysayer in CoK, Strength 4 has shown me the light. They hit hard... REAL HARD.

Unit of 6 with RoH and full command. Warbanner if you have the extra points.

-Rex

In fairness, you dont even need the command upgrades, a unit of 5 naked hits surprisingly hard too.

Steve tu · Post by **Steve tu** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:16 pm

That is a real problem when I am facing Bretonians and my CoK receive the charge, same with HE. My tactical skills are not sufficient to prevent that.

Lots of harpies and DR help here. harpies especially. I try to run unit to each CoK unit to help in the diverting to ensure we get the charge (as much as can be insured with stupidity...)

@1elbow · Post by **@1elbow** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:15 am

I've (and again, I mostly played fifth and back) always taken CoK in just about every situation ever. To me, most of their "disadvantages" are not too severe, while they are one of the toughest, hardest hitting heavy cavalry units, especially with a charcter that can boost the units CR with a couple extra "certain" wounds.

In terms of movement, I've rarely found the M7 or stupidity to be a hinderence. The rest of our army moves quickly and with enought agility that I don't think CoK should get charged in a disadavantageous way. We simply have enough mobility that we should be able to keep them from being totally out of position.

I hardly ever failed stupidity at a time that ruined my plans; I'd assume that you'd have to be playing a pretty high level player for CoK stupidity to really wreck your plans. On a LD8-plus unit, I don't see it as a weakness in the same vein that someone with a Troll unit does.

Long story short, I've long-argued that they are the best cavalry unit in WHFB (consindering it is subjective) for a long time and stick by it.

Dread_knight666 · Post by **Dread_knight666** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:24 am

On a side note COK probably have the coolest fluff in the game IMO. I love the story in the new book about the two brothers not being able to share their power and the one brother soaking the others cloak in blood. lol.

I guess movement 7 isn't to bad simply because of the speed of other options in our army, namely harpies. Harpies work great for keeping the enemies heavy cav out of the game and helping our knights get the charge and not fall victim to their own stupidity.

As for giving a unit of COK a war banner and the hydra banner, well I think that is completely overkill since they will annihilate almost anything on the charge. The banner makes the COK a total sledge hammer unit and hatred makes it all the more sweeter.

And a sorceress in a hydra banner unit would probably work quite well, considering she would never get attacked if you played your cards right. Only problem is the already existing target on your COK just gets even bigger by adding a BSB and a sorceress. Still having a shadow sorceress in the COK unit would be really beneficial.

I honestly think COK just may be one of the best knights in WHFB and with the new amazing plastic knights, making a COK army is actually affordable now! I am eagerly anticipating the release of a new plastic COK chariot, otherwise I will have to convert the HE chariots.

Entreri bloodletter · Post by **Entreri bloodletter** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:35 am

I was a fan of CoK even in the last edition simply because it was one of the hardest hitting units in the list. Now they have become a lot better for even cheaper meaning they almost always have a place in my lists.

The hatred combined with Str 6 is extremely nice and while they are a little bit slow compared to some heavy cav with as many cheap diverters as we have it hasn't been too much of a problem for me.

Many times my bretonian opponent simply has to charge the diverters and then I am able to get the charge off and win combat because our knights are such beasts in combat.

The hydra banner is amazing but even if you don't want to shell out the points for it we have other options in the form of standards and the CoB. All of these options make our heavy cav almost unstoppable. In one battle my unit of 6 CoK with hydra banner was single handedly responsible for destroying almost half his army including they general's unit of bestigor, 2 units of minotaurs and a couple other small things. Very good troop choice IMO

Falconrider · Post by **Falconrider** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:40 am

If i was going to run a hydra banner CoK unit i'd always give it the ASF banner too just in case they got charged.

Rugi · Post by **Rugi** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:42 am

A major drawback is indeed stupidity. Once I had 5 knights with full command and banner of murder and inside a lord and a BSB with hydra banner. I was going to charge a flank of 20 skeletons with a vampire lord on the other side but of course failed stupidity on 10.
Things like this happen and really ruin your game. But still, when they hit, they hit like no other!

COK

COK

Re: COK