hatred and ring of hotek broken???

Damnedscorpio · Post by **Damnedscorpio** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:05 pm

i have played my all cavalry list with the ring of hotek on my cold one champion and i get non stop complaints stating that both of these are broken i some what agree on this but they are also both double edged swords what are you oppinions and remember a dragon and hydra both benifit from hatred

Post by **Dalamar** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:07 pm

Speed of Asuryan is much higher in the "broken" department than Eternal Hatred as it doesn't require any thinking from the general. It's just there.

And Ring of Hotek is finally as it should be
You shut down the magic phase... for both sides.

Damnedscorpio · Post by **Damnedscorpio** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:20 pm

well my high elf friend begs to differ and says the total oppisite he says hatred is something that requires no thinking and bends the chance of charging and he thinks the ring of hotek needs to be more points

Post by **Dalamar** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:23 pm

ASF can't be exploited by your enemy
Hatred can be.

Damnedscorpio · Post by **Damnedscorpio** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:29 pm

you are right i love hatred i have seen the weaknesses though but i also see his point you charge in with 6 coldones with chanpion you have 13 attacks you hit 11 times and wounds are based on toughness they have speed armor and hatred you will have to agree they are a little much and the way i have them set up is you cant cast magic at them either or you are looking at a good chance of miscasting i see both sides and i hated asf now its on the other foot what is asf for spearmen and dragon princes if they get charged nothing i have no complaints for the new book it makes me feel i have a winning chance i even took on a 2250 vc bloodnight army and won yesterday and that was when my high elf playing friend lost it

and the end of his arguement was that we have magic items to give asf he doesnt have anything to give him hatred and lets remember when we go against high elves they get that damn reroll

Mod edit: in the future, please, please, please watch your grammar. Not everyone here is a native english speaker and using correct conventions makes you easier to understand. Also, don't double post. Thank you for your time. ~Fingol

Kargan daemonclaw · Post by **Kargan daemonclaw** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:32 am

The Ring of Hotek is OK but it is completely useless against some magic.

Tomb Kings incantations and bound items being the most common.

The Dark Elf army certainly got a boost from the book and went from an army of easy beats to a competitive one.

Your HE playing friend needs to come up with some new tactics and or composition to handle your army.

BTW some punctuation and captials will make your posting much eaiser to read.

DE vs HE will always be very bloody. HE get the always reroll to hit and HW get the reroll psychology tests so won't run.

ASF might not be much good on knights but it is fantastic on units like Sword Masters and white lions. You can't take those units with knights unless you have some kind of magical protection.

Post by **Layne** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:03 am

I would say that Hatred is unbroken - especially compared to ASF - in that it doesn't require an anti-rule to counter it. Indeed, as Dalamar says, it can be used to one's advantage. The trouble with trying to use it to your advantage, is that it can only be done when we charge, so to bring it to our undoing, you have first to give us the initiative.

Since HE got ASf, every new army has been given at least one unit and two trinkets that also ASF... but I never saw anything in Daemons or VC that said, "A model bearing the Care Bear of Lovable Cuteness can never be Hated..."

So no, Hatred isn't broken. A little bent, but not broken.

Crawd · Post by **Crawd** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:56 am

How can Hatred be called broken? It helps, of course, but it doesn't make us invincible. If you compare with a Nurgle Wall (5+ Ward and Regen), Hatred is nothing.

The Ring of Hotek is good but just good, most of the time, you just want it as protection and it won't do anything against a VC or OK that cast most of his spells on 1 die. It also doesn't do anything against the Tomb King. I don't say that it's a bad item, it's just a good way to counter a heavy magic list and against a combat list, it just won't do anything.

The Reverse Ward, on the other hand, is pretty strong, not broken if you know how to deal with it (even if I failed 2 test in the same turn with a double 6) by combat results, low Str value to no Str value attacks or even no saves at all.

In my opinion, nothing in Warhammer is broken, some are just stronger and needs to be ajusted to beat this list but in overall, it's balanced.

Reincus · Post by **Reincus** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:22 pm

damnedscorpio wrote:you are right i love hatred i have seen the weaknesses though but i also see his point you charge in with 6 coldones with chanpion you have 13 attacks you hit 11 times and wounds are based on toughness they have speed armor and hatred you will have to agree they are a little much and the way i have them set up is you cant cast magic at them either or you are looking at a good chance of miscasting i see both sides and i hated asf now its on the other foot what is asf for spearmen and dragon princes if they get charged nothing i have no complaints for the new book it makes me feel i have a winning chance i even took on a 2250 vc bloodnight army and won yesterday and that was when my high elf playing friend lost it

Not a single period or capitalization, impressive!

Lordsaradain · Post by **Lordsaradain** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:01 pm

Difficult to read I'd say.

Matras · Post by **Matras** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:24 pm

Extremely so. Get yourself some punctuation, please, and tell your friend to stop whining. Okay, I know this sounds harsh, but seriously, we may have hatred, but he can still shut down magic just as effectively with his automatic spell, or he can mount his mages on something fast and ugly and just get them out of range - 12" is not THAT far. There are enough spells that affect only your own troops or usually DE units outside the ring's protection. And HE can easily be played without spellcasters, their troops are as good as ours. Great eagles and lots of elites, small dragons, core heavy cavalry - there are enough possibilities to create a good and competitive army. (Of course, you will still beat him, but that is a matter of style and us being the cooler army.)

Derikari · Post by **Derikari** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:03 pm

They don't have core heavy cav anymore.

Sonofaenerion · Post by **Sonofaenerion** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:41 pm

ASF is by far the more broken.

It requires very little tactics to use and on troops like white lions and swordmasters it is retarded. Hatred is more situational and comes with a (small) downside which can be exploited by an experienced general, it just means that DE can now hit hard enough to to get by the T3 and 5+ AS that is the army standard.

It may be a bit good on mounts tghough

Big daddy d · Post by **Big daddy d** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:11 pm

Actually I am the OP's opponent. To clarify my exact position; Ring of Hotek is far too effective for it's points cost, providing excellent magical protection for a 24" swath of the table for 25 points. I can see the argument that it is dependant upon facing magic heavy armies but does anyone see a problem with every army now being a dragon/cav/shooty army?

Second is the subject of army wide Hatred. It makes nearly every charge a no brainer victory, so again the tactics call for don't get charged. I have personally seen idiotic charges that shouldn't have had a chance succeed solely based on the "load game" function of Hatred. Since Warhammer has alwyas been and continues to be a game of charging/movement I would happily exhange ASF for Hatred. (on a fluff note since all elves are genetically the same how do the animals tell which elves they should hate? Is it the goth clothing?)

So i guess my biggest gripe is just the loss of variety that these latest armies are breeding. Defeating DE is not a problem for my HE, I own a Teclis model. And 6 bolt throwers. And a dragon. It would just be nice if my archmage and 40 spearmen didn't have to collect so much dust.

Big Daddy D

Atropos · Post by **Atropos** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:19 pm

Big Daddy D wrote:how do the animals tell which elves they should hate? Is it the goth clothing?)
Big Daddy D

Funny enough... Why do High Elves are supposed to be the most "skilled", and hence the ASF rule, if there's a unique elven race splitted into three?

ASF is a good rule, and so is Hatred. Hatred has a minor drawback, ASF has none. I like them both, and I play both DE and HE.

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:24 pm

@Big Daddy D
I do see your point (probably because I personally don't see ASF as broken, and because I see the new DE army list as being stronger than the new HE army list), and i agree with two things:
- Ring of hotek is a very useful item for its points
- The optimal build for a DE army is a dragon-lead army with lots of evasion troops

However, I do disagree with your opinion of army-wide hatred. Although I do agree that it is a very strong rule, I wouldn't say it's broken. It doesn't turn bad charges into good ones. What it really does is preventing the so-called "rubber lance syndrome", if you know what that means - like a kitted out highborn doing 1 wound to goblins. It also makes our fast cavalry one of the best fast cavalry choices in the game (only Glade Riders are better, due to the ability to go unhindered through woods - although dark riders are still better in CC).

As for broken-ness in the dar elf army, there is some:
- pendant
- harpy spam

However, comparing with the latest armies coming out, DE are not that really broken. They are more or less in the same league with HE, LZ, BR, not in the same league with daemons and vampires.

Big daddy d · Post by **Big daddy d** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:22 pm

@Lakissov
I see your points, perhaps I spoke too sardonically in regards to idiot charges, Hatred makes charges that would NORMALLY be foolish look much more attractive. 5 CoK into a full ranked unit has a very good chance of doing the 6 wounds needed to win, whereas units without the re-roll have to think long and hard about that charge. And of course there is no longer any threat of "rubber lance", your right.

In the end no amount of debate changes the fact that DE have hatred. Life goes on... but the Ring of Hotek is absurd, period.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:38 am

Big Daddy D wrote:@Lakissov
I see your points, perhaps I spoke too sardonically in regards to idiot charges, Hatred makes charges that would NORMALLY be foolish look much more attractive. 5 CoK into a full ranked unit has a very good chance of doing the 6 wounds needed to win, whereas units without the re-roll have to think long and hard about that charge. And of course there is no longer any threat of "rubber lance", your right.

In the end no amount of debate changes the fact that DE have hatred. Life goes on... but the Ring of Hotek is absurd, period.

Nah, that gadget that imperials get where the chracters swap profiles, that's absurd, so is 2 dragons in a HE list and HE artillery crew who before almost every hero in the game.

Alasanii · Post by **Alasanii** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:40 am

Okay, am I missing something here. If I charge a unit that ASF don't they get to hit me before I hit them? I thought that is how it worked. So the chances of me surviving such an encounter are very slim considering most units only have 5+ armour saves.

So, I get to re-roll to hit on the charge. But, with the WS that elves have you generally have a good chance of hitting without the re-roll anyways.

As for the ring of Hotek. I like it, but it is double edged. And I have only had it work maybe twice in a game, because after that my opponent just starts to cast spells on his own units, that are 12"s away. Seems pretty simple to me.

As you uncover things about your opponent you must change your tactics, never be static with them always be dynamic.

Demetrius · Post by **Demetrius** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:33 am

Big Daddy- Hatred has no effect when we charge in to your ranked spearmen unit (ASF AND fight in three ranks which makes even a 5 wide unit get 16 attacks) or when we charge into your 2 attack ASF great weapon wielding psychos. In both situations, most of the time we wont be getting more than 1 or 2 models who can attack.

And even if we do somehow get lucky to win the combat, your not going to break because you get rerolls against us.

Also, you can fit 2 dragons in 2000 points, plus AFAIK around 6 specials, 4 rare and 2 cores in 2000.

If thats not broken, I dont know what is.

On another note, Ring of Hotek isnt that great, if you roll spells on 2 or 3 dice even miscasting on any doubles wont occur more than once per 3 or 4 times. Plus, most of your spells are defensive spells anyway so you shouldnt have a problem.

Gorenut · Post by **Gorenut** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:37 am

ASF makes it so you don't have worry as much about getting charged.. army-wide. Warhammer is a game about movement (in my mind) and charges should be rewarded... I don't see how anyone with ASF has any room to complain about hatred. It doesn't grant you MORE attacks like Frenzy.. it just simply helps you a little on the statistics. Makes charges more reliable.

While.. I don't think ASF is broken.. I just find it a very bland rule. Even making them all strike in Initiative order would suffice for me.

Ring of Hotek is nothing compared to the army composition the HE is afforded. I wish I could just take 2 core units and load up with nothing but Black Guards and Cold One Knights.

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:35 am

@Big Daddy D
Indeed, hatred increases the chances in any combat. However, only in the first round, which still makes it stupid (in my mind) to make charges where you are not pretty sure to not only win but also break your opponent. If previously it had to be three DE units charging into any decent enemy unit (i.e. not skaven slaves etc), then now two charging units suffice (or one very strong, like COK with hydra banner BSB).

And as for the ring - there is one vey important thing: this is a purely defensive item. All it does is protect a part of your army from strong magic offense (magic missles cast on 1-2 dice can stil be targeted there - the real protection is against 'monster spells'). Which is why it is priced 4 times cheaper than the analogical offensive item og high elves, which causes irresistible force. Ring of Hotel just protects, while Book of Hoeth destroys.

Elven prince · Post by **Elven prince** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:45 am

Lakissov wrote:Ring of Hotel just protects, while Book of Hoeth destroys.

The Ring should cost more, not only it protects your army from more dangerous spells it can turn any IF result into miscast. Casting with two dices is no guarantee you won't suffer miscast (it only has the lowest chance to miscast), it really is a nasty item.

gorenut wrote:I wish I could just take 2 core units and load up with nothing but Black Guards and Cold One Knights.

Though the first units in my list are Reaver Knights and Eagles, on average leaving me four special slots and two core to fill out. Thanks to the price of HE elites, I also don't fill out those four choices: unless I take two small units of Sword Masters.

Demetrius the Betrayer wrote:Plus, most of your spells are defensive spells anyway so you shouldnt have a problem.

Rugi · Post by **Rugi** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:08 am

Hatred broken??? I am happy when my opponents bring war priests and vampires with hatred to battle. It does more damage to them than it does to me. That is why I was so against hatred in the begining.
After one month I realised that DE can handle it better because they can control opponents movement better than other armies and can therefor reduce the downside of it.
What makes our armies deadly is the amount of shooting we can bring and shoot down absolutely all support units. That is more broken IMO than hatred.

Ring of hotek is of course great but I had some problems with it so far. If I take 2 sorceress it´s very hard for me to make a solid line I want to have. I can never put my COK near my casters so my deployment is often confused just because of it (champion has it).
So no, it is not broken.

If there is something broken, it´s definitely hydra. Those 7 attacks and regeneration are just beyond reasonable for only 175 points!

Comrade igor · Post by **Comrade igor** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:50 am

Hatred isn't broken simply because its has downsides. At the end of the day, we are just T3 low AS elves, so we are very much killable. If anything, hatred complements good play and tactics.

I would agree if hatred was just the re-rolls, because re-rolls -are- gamebreaking for a whole army.