Bearded Elves?

[Chain]

I first thought this to be impossible, though from reading the Malus Darkblade stuff, it sound like both mustache and goatees are possible on elves

Have they ever made a figure of a bearded elf? and to what extend do there beard grow?


Imagining an elf with a dwarfbeard is strange

[Fr0]

Sounds too beardy, imo.

I've never seen a conversion.

[Gibious]

Paint a goatee on =D

I have deja vu with this topic too

[Heldrak]

There are one or two bearded/mustachioed Elven figures waaaaaaaay back in the Citadel Elf range, but they're few and far between.

Notably the High Elf Wizard Macross the Seer:

http://www.collecting-citadel-miniature ... f6a-03.jpg

and the Elf Fighter/Magic-User from the old Citadel BDD1 Dungeons & Dragons Adventurers boxed set.

http://www.citadel-add-range.org.uk/bdd01.html

The original ME22 Elrond figure from the old Citadel LOTR line (from the mid-1980s) has a mustache.

http://www.solegends.com/citlotr/me22elrond.jpg

Those are the only Elven figures with facial hair in the entire Citadel range (and of those 3, only Macross the Seer was part of the mainstream Warhammer line).

[Bounce]

Elves don't have beards. As Elves are opposite to dwarves and Dwarves do have beards.

By being clean shaven it shows how pure and superior elves are to other races.

[Western elf]

By being clean shaven it shows how pure and superior elves are to other races.

Or maybe it shows that elves have less differentiation between genders.

[Thomus darkblade]

Well all dwarves have beards. Male and female. Fact of the matter is that elves and humans can interbreed and have fertile offspring. That makes them, the same species! woo! only cultural differences separate us!
As such, yes elves can grow facial hair, Although like the native peoples of the real "New World" 1- Theres not very much of it, and 2-It's not seen as overly attractive.

[Dread_knight666]

Elves don't have beards. As Elves are opposite to dwarves and Dwarves do have beards.

By being clean shaven it shows how pure and superior elves are to other races.

Well according to the chronicles of Malus Dark Blade dark elves do commonly have facial hair. Although near as I can remember not a beard, just mustache's and goatee's, which can be quite stylish IMO. I would paint facial hair on some of my elves, but I fear I am not a good enough painter to make it convincing.

Considering this is fantasy, if I decide my elves need afro's and side burns I can do that. Why limit yourself to painting and styling them a certain way, when they are purely fictional creatures? I was going to paint my elves with purple skin because I felt like it, would they not still be elves? I suppose if you want to stay true to original elven form, you better research some Norse mythology.

BTW Elves are not the opposite of dwarves.... Although they are indeed exact opposites in many ways.

[Grimma]

Elves don't grow beards for fear of being laughed at by dwarves for their pitiful attempts at growing facial hair. It's a personal insecurity thing.

[Weenth]

Well all dwarves have beards. Male and female.
Fact of the matter is that elves and humans can interbreed and have fertile offspring. That makes them, the same species! woo! only cultural differences separate us!
As such, yes elves can grow facial hair, Although like the native peoples of the real "New World" 1- Theres not very much of it, and 2-It's not seen as overly attractive.

Where did You get this info from? AFAIK none of this is true in Warhammer background (well, except already mentioned small facehair in Darkblade comics... the same comic that shows Malus as unable to see in the dark without artifical light, which, according to WFRP all elves can).

The only miniature of female dwarf, which I can think of now (from 5th ed WFB campaign) doesn't have a beard, so do those few on ilustrations of 1 ed. WFRP. No pictures/minis of bearded dwarf women in Warhammer that I know of.

There are also no half-elves mentioned anywhere in officiall fluff. The only thing closest to it is suggestion - and suggestion only - that main character of Konrad trilogy is one (If I recall well - he gets some equippement (shield it was?) that suposedly belonged to his unknown father, and it bears elven heraldry on it).

[Milney]

Fact of the matter is that elves and humans can interbreed and have fertile offspring. That makes them, the same species!

Only according to the Biological Species Concept (BSC). According to the 10+ other methods of determining species, they're not.

[Mr. anderson]

Fact of the matter is that elves and humans can interbreed and have fertile offspring. That makes them, the same species!

Only according to the Biological Species Concept (BSC). According to the 10+ other methods of determining species, they're not.

Being the same species does not necessarily mean that you have exactly the same DNA (for example a person born in Africa might look quite different to a person born in Norway but they are both completely equal human beings). And if you start becoming technical about biology in the Warhammer world I think you will get absolutely nowhere.

Just as an aside - I have never actually heard of half-elves in warhammer so I'm not convinced that elves and humans can even interbreed according to games workshop.

HUZZAH!

[Thomus darkblade]

Heldrak posted a half elf earlier in this thread, albiet a LOTR one. Half elves are common enough in fantasy lore for me to consider them

Only according to the Biological Species Concept (BSC). According to the 10+ other methods of determining species, they're not.

I'm unfamiliar with these 10 other methods. All I know is that If you can interbreed and have fertile offspring you're close enough to be considered the same species. There are exceptions of course for genetically similar populations separated irredeemably by geography, (like caribou and reindeer)
For Hominids however, the distinction is blurred as culture is a real and definitive factor in how separate populations live and breed. Saying that a geographically isolated population (Say New Guineans) are a different species is extremely problematic.

Anyway, this is a silly thing to argue about, but I think that the idea that elves and humans are the same species is worthy of some consideration. Take it for what you will. They're just pewter models anyways.

[Milney]

I'm unfamiliar with these 10 other methods. All I know is that If you can interbreed and have fertile offspring you're close enough to be considered the same species. There are exceptions of course for genetically similar populations separated irredeemably by geography, (like caribou and reindeer)
For Hominids however, the distinction is blurred as culture is a real and definitive factor in how separate populations live and breed. Saying that a geographically isolated population (Say New Guineans) are a different species is extremely problematic.

Anyway, this is a silly thing to argue about, but I think that the idea that elves and humans are the same species is worthy of some consideration. Take it for what you will. They're just pewter models anyways.

There you go, you've managed to guess one yourself, then we have the Phylogenetic Species Concept (based on distinguishing characteristics) and a whole host of other criteria for various definitions.

Whilst it is true that the Biological Species Concept (that utilises fertile offspring from a P1 cross as the criteria for speciation) is perhaps the most widespread and commonly used - such that it is the only one taught in schools, at an Academic/Graduate level claiming that they can interbreed therefore they are the same species will get you in hot water .

And the distinction between Hominids is not solely down to cultural differences (Meme's are irrelevant for defining species boundaries - though some [Dawkins] might disagree), but rather through the fact that we have significantly different genetic and physical characteristics between the 7 major populations of Homo sapiens. We are all technically "Sub-species" of Homo Sapiens, a confusing terminology caused by the fact that one concept of species cannot accurately account for everything

As for Elves/Humans being the same species? In a strictly fantasy sense - yes and no. Both were (to the best of my recollection) created to some degree by the Old Ones (as were Ogres, Lizardmen, Dwarves) and as such I would imagine that the Old Ones would have (and indeed did) made these races interchangeable to a greater or lesser extent. I'm sure that physical boundaries aside all of these races (perhaps with the exception of Lizardmen) could interbreed succesfully.

Then we also have the distinctive "traits" that were imbued to each race by the Old Ones. Elves were given long lives and an affinity for magic to watch over it, Dwarves a strong constitution and humans (as is always in fantasy/sci-fi stories) were given the gift of being adaptable. Perhaps it is this "uniquely" human ability to adapt that allows half-elves. Perhaps a Human could interbreed (given all physical constraints were ignored) with all the other Old One races and produce valid offspring, whereas the others are unable to do so

[Thomus darkblade]

And the distinction between Hominids is not solely down to cultural differences (Meme's are irrelevant for defining species boundaries - though some [Dawkins] might disagree), but rather through the fact that we have significantly different genetic and physical characteristics between the 7 major populations of Homo sapiens. We are all technically "Sub-species" of Homo Sapiens, a confusing terminology caused by the fact that one concept of species cannot accurately account for everything Wink

The seven sub species of human beings, ( Negroid caucasiod mongoloid, Aborigine and Native American? what's the seventh?) Are largely antiquated Lynian terms. My guess here is that there is a disciplinary difference here, ( You're a hard science guy, While I come from a social science background. ) I wouldn't be surprised if there was a continental divide either.
Anthropologists agree that there are -no- surviving sub species of human beings, as human variation is clinal. In fact there are heated debates as to whether or not well established "species" such as Homo Erectus, or Homo Neandretalensis are indeed separate species at all. While they are able to be differenciated skeletally, so is a poodle from a great dane, and they're both canus domesticus (or canus lupus according to BSC)

[Keeper of the cauldron]

One of the Manflayers models has a nice set of muttonchops going down the sides of his face, but other than that, i don/t know of any others.

[Ramaj]

FYI that DE isn't the only one, according to the WAR Graphic Novel Lord Uthorin and his son wear them too. This trait also runs in Malus' family, if he stopped shaving he too would sport facial hair (like Lurhan and Bruglir). I've wondered if it has anything to do with an influx of human blood far back in some lines. Perhaps in the early days of Naggaroth's founding some unorthodox breeding practices were adopted out of desperation. When you need as many able bodies as possible to hold the fort and your race isn't fertile to begin with...

[Irtehdar]

Ramaj I like your idea except that Druchii view other races as lower beings hardly worthy of existing at all. I think the idea of breeding with humans might be just about as pleasant for them as the idea of breeding with a porqupine is for you and me.
A more likely scenario would probably be way back in ancient times before the rise of human civilisation around the time when elves lived in small clay huts a pack(or heard or whatever) of humans have captured an elven maid and had their way with her. This could have resulted in an offspring or possibly 2. If these offspring were girls it might be hard to tell them apart from other elves(given females tend to be slender than males and doesnt show the evidence of genes for facial hair)
These individuals would give birth to stronger and sturdier built individuals which in this primitive stage would have a good chance to be successful meaning the ''facial hair'' gene might spread out on a relatively large number over the next couple generations but at the same time the genes that identify them as crossbreeds would slowly be washed out.
Thus we have a possible explanation to why facial hair occours occationally in some elven families but not in others.

PS: Blue eyes is a genetical mutation that is meant by some scientists to have only occoured once but this gene has spread out to alot of people today.

[Ramaj]

The Druchii were a beleaguered people when they first settled up north. Constant Marauder raids forced them to become even more bellicose and pragmatic. In Liber Chaotica it explains that DE beastmasters did all they could to capture and breed monsters etc. to strengthen the DE's precarious position. The easiest (and fastest) way to produce much needed soldiers would have been to 'use' women captured from the enemy and as 'Elfslayer' shows they are hardly above enjoying it X_X...A single DE could father many such children in a short span of time, furthermore human females are notably more prolific and better able to withstand childbirth than their elven counterparts. Elves seem to be slow breeders but it is likely that the determining factor is the female reproductive cycle. I am willing to bet that elven males are probably not much different from humans in that they are able to reproduce at the drop of a hat. Most halfbreeds would have died at a predictably young age, but those that survived could have passed on some of their traits to a good number of modern Druchii. So while DE are pretty racist the human strain is so diluted and widespread that it's hardly worth mentioning anymore...