Taking leave of The Dark Riders!

Enfant terrible · Post by **Enfant terrible** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:32 pm

Lately I've been wondering, especially in the light of Charlie's GT winning army, if we need the infamous Dark Riders at all ... I've been using armies with no DR's at all (replacing them with RxB cores instead) and it seems to work nicely. Even if RxB's are static and vulnerable to certain opponents and certain tactics, I seem to have been taking leave of them (at least for the time being) ...

Anybody feels the same way?

Marauder mitch2 · Post by **Marauder mitch2** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:35 pm

I feel a DE army without riders plays differently but it takes time to figure how to live without them.

Skilgannon · Post by **Skilgannon** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:21 pm

Interesting concept. You have said you have replaced the Dark Riders with RXBs but what about shades and harpies these would be the more natural replacements are you running many of these already or are you pretty light on these as well. I can see RXBs particualry with shields doing well at some of the roles I use Dark Riders for and they are a good unit on a flank.

What i do love about the Dark Riders is the flexibility you get with the speed, shooting and hatered on the charge. They can fill shortcomings in my army quite easily and that would be hard to replicate with any other unit. I can imagine playing without Dark Riders needs an army with carefully specilised units to fulfil roles and careful use to ensure they deliver in these roles.

Enfant terrible · Post by **Enfant terrible** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:54 pm

Skilgannon wrote:Interesting concept. You have said you have replaced the Dark Riders with RXBs but what about shades and harpies these would be the more natural replacements are you running many of these already or are you pretty light on these as well. I can see RXBs particualry with shields doing well at some of the roles I use Dark Riders for and they are a good unit on a flank.

Remember that harpies don't count towards minimum core choices! And shades are special choices.

But I do run at least 2 units of 5 harpies and also include a unit of 7 shades with GW (at least that's what I've done in the 6 games or so without a single DR).

Skilgannon wrote:What i do love about the Dark Riders is the flexibility you get with the speed, shooting and hatered on the charge. They can fill shortcomings in my army quite easily and that would be hard to replicate with any other unit. I can imagine playing without Dark Riders needs an army with carefully specilised units to fulfil roles and careful use to ensure they deliver in these roles.

You are right that DR more often than not are missed due to their FLEXIBILITY - where other troops are specialized towards one or two tasks, DR really has the potential to fulfill ALL and still be expendable!

I've been running two pretty similar lists (without the DR's):
Manti Lord, Deathpiercer.
Master, BSB build.
Caddy
Cauldron Hag or Master on Peggy with Caledor's Bane

3*10 RxB
2*5 Harpies

14-19 ASF, Ring of Hotek, BG's.
7 Shades
If Master on Pegasus I also include a Cold One Chariot.

2 Reapers
1 Hydra

Pretty standard stuff ... and it does work. One might object to the fact that there are no TACTICAL reasons to exclude DR's - and that would be right! I just wanted to see if the DE army was just as strong without the DR's and it is!

tmr · Post by **tmr** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:00 pm

so what armies would you run this list against and how? what armies wouldn't you run it against?

What would the set-up look like?

I like the list but not sure how I would employ it.

So many questions and no answers...

thanks

tr

Post by **Dyvim tvar** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:03 pm

There is no way I could do without my Dark Riders!

The skaerkrow · Post by **The skaerkrow** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:19 pm

As far as I'm concerned, Dark Riders are the definitive unit in the Dark Elven army. Do you need them? No, but you're always better with them than without them.

Ehakir · Post by **Ehakir** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:55 pm

Why would you limit yourself to not using dark riders?

Asikari · Post by **Asikari** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:26 pm

I see no reason why an army list without Dark Riders as a less than viable option. In doing so, you may be giving up some control and counter-artillery ability, however - other units in various combinations could fill the niche left vacant.

Personally, I like Dark Riders. On many occasions my opponents have left other parts of my army unmolested while they deal with them.

Skilgannon · Post by **Skilgannon** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:23 am

Why would you limit yourself to not using dark riders?

Why limit yourself at all?

Tactical interest, Develop new playing styles, Doing something different for the sake of it, theming an army.

Enfant terrible · Post by **Enfant terrible** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:59 am

@asikari, Ehakir, et.al. Well first off - I'm a HUGE fan of Dark Riders! I think the can be invaluable, but I also think that they more often than not are limiting the tactical capabilities of a lot of players (in this regard your're absolutely right Skilgannon) ...

I just tried out the No-DR tactics simply to try out something different - it seems to work for me (I've fought a WoC: Knights heavy, DoC (Khorne/Nurgle), HE (Stardragon) and Empire (Cavalry/Shooting) against the empire army I really suffered as I had few units to provoke charges!! - which in the end might show the weak spots in my army.

@tmr: As for setup, I usually make a shooting base at one flank (protected by Hydra and BG) and fast units at the far other flank (almost like the refused tactics). You've the oppotunity to play both a very aggressive and very defensive game - the last will earn you more draws than massacres though

Hidaus morbusa · Post by **Hidaus morbusa** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:46 am

I worked out a 2250 list the other night, and when I took a closer look this morning I realised that I had included NO DR :shock:

Seeing this thread makes me want to try without, but I'm a little nervous that I'm going to miss them a lot.

The choice in this case seems to be 1 of three:
2x5 DR w/RXB
5 DR w/RxB + 10 RXB Warriors w/Shield
2x10 RXB Warriors w/Shield

What would you do?
It's a dragon list with only a caddie and the ring, a hard hitting general. A hydra, 2 reapers big spear block with BSB and Warbanner, 2 Chariots, 20 Corsairs, 2x5 Harpies

Enfant terrible · Post by **Enfant terrible** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:02 am

Hidaus Morbusa wrote:I worked out a 2250 list the other night, and when I took a closer look this morning I realised that I had included NO DR
Seeing this thread makes me want to try without, but I'm a little nervous that I'm going to miss them a lot.

The choice in this case seems to be 1 of three:
2x5 DR w/RXB
5 DR w/RxB + 10 RXB Warriors w/Shield
2x10 RXB Warriors w/Shield

What would you do?
It's a dragon list with only a caddie and the ring, a hard hitting general. A hydra, 2 reapers big spear block with BSB and Warbanner, 2 Chariots, 20 Corsairs, 2x5 Harpies

Normally Dragon lists seems to benefit more from the presence of Dark Riders than other lists do, simply due to the huge points sink from the Dragon, which in turn will give fewer elves (and you need more staying power without the DR's)... but I would say: Go for all three options and find out what works the best. I'm still in the tinkering phase with mine, but for now seems to do fine (W:4, D:1, L:1) ...

And happy holidays

Druchii77 · Post by **Druchii77** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:28 pm

While I will never admit that Dark Riders aren't the best fast cav in the game and also one of our most useful units, I think you can play the new build without them. With harpies being so readily available and cheap, we can get by without them. I do think that if you go DR free, you need not only harpies to replace them but some adequate form of shooting as well. My current lists include only a single unit of dark riders while I have two units of 10 crossbows and two units of harpies.

Falconrider · Post by **Falconrider** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:13 am

Having used Wood Elves as my 1st army i learned to forego the use of Glade Riders and decided that an Eagle and Warhawks were enough to fulfil similiar roles. Glade Riders just died to easily and i prefered the power of the Glade Guard and Dryads as my core. After taking up the Dark Elves my 1st few games were without Dark Riders as i had them in the same redundant catergory as the Glade Riders. I used to run 2 x RXB & 1 Warriors as core, i've since swapped a RXB unit for a DR unit and havn't looked back. The DR are the best shooty allround fast cav in the game. The only fast cav unit that trumps them for combat are the Wild Riders.

Enfant terrible · Post by **Enfant terrible** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:42 am

druchii77 wrote:My current lists include only a single unit of dark riders while I have two units of 10 crossbows and two units of harpies.

This is in fact quite close to my own build - which is: 3*10 RxB and 2*5 Harpies ...

Promises · Post by **Promises** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:31 pm

I have done quite a few battles without them but with plenty harpies and I must say during those I never missed them, but then when I got back to using them I was sure glad to have them, and did realise that they do suit my style quite well. They're by no means inexpandable, but they are a very powerfull unit indeed.

- human · Post by **- human** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:57 pm

Right before the new book came out, I traded off all 15 of my old Dark Rider models because they were so dated looking and because the deal was good. Since then, I haven't really missed them.

The Dark Elves are now a top-tier army that has lots of options for speed, warmachine hunting, and harassing. Shades are a great choice, harpies are a no-brainer and extremely cheap, and our characters are as fast as ever and still have great mount options. Furthermore, our elite troops, monsters, and character choices are strong enough to make it on their own without the masterful DR distraction/bait/flee tactics that used to be necessary in the old army book.

Dark Riders are still a great choice that will almost always fit seamlessly into our armies. But in this edition, they are no longer the crucial ingredient for success. This is a refreshing change, and I like it... playing all-infantry can be a lot of fun and can finally yield some impressive results!

Mereghost · Post by **Mereghost** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:19 pm

I agree, dark riders isn't a must now that we're 7th edition. That doesn't mean core fast cavalry is unnecessary though, they still do a critical job. Outriding the opponent has some advantages.

Dark riders still have their place in my armies. Not a necessity, but they still work fine IMO.

Prince daerlythe · Post by **Prince daerlythe** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:38 am

Personnally, I prefer an army without them. Why? Because my opponents know to target fast cavalry quickly, and they die off too quickly. Getting close enough to stall the march and harrass makes them vulnerable. Better to go with Shades, who's Scout and Skirmish rules get them close and make them hard to hit from the start.

Marauder mitch2 · Post by **Marauder mitch2** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:45 am

Dark Riders are good but RXBmen do roughly the same job just being more static whic is to take the enemies support out. I like but but with 10RXBmen they have twice the wounds.

Mordru · Post by **Mordru** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:45 am

Try some units of dark riders without the rxb upgrade. Cheap enough t be expendable, more reliable than harpies and hit harder in this edition due to hatred. I usually run my DRs this way now and lean on Rxb warriors and shades for shooting.

Cyberactivity · Post by **Cyberactivity** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:58 pm

For pure defence, 10 xbowmen with shields works better than dark riders.

For offensive ability, dark riders work better.

Skilgannon · Post by **Skilgannon** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:06 pm

I'm planning on dropping my Dark Riders for a tournament army with RXBs in their place. Can you guys go into more detail as to how to use the RXBs in place of Dark Riders.

Do you try and replicate their roles or do you just use their shooting to threaten an area?

Do you move the RXBs alot or do you hang back with them.

Skilgannon · Post by **Skilgannon** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:13 am

Well i had a warm up 1 day tournament where I tried my no Dark Rider army and it performed well as I won the tournament. I'm not sure whether I would have been better with Dark Riders over RXBs in some of the games I would definitely have liked them in my last game against High Elves. In the other games (against Dark Elves) I was probably better off with the RXB although alot of that is due to the way the armies played.

I'm not sure how much i've learned about playing without Dark Riders but I guess in a way it is similar to playing with my 6th Edition High Elves with two Great Eagles (although I could use cheap Silver Helms with them).