Desperately need help against Dwarf army for tournament

[Cwoody0]

Hello D.net, long-time reader, first-time poster here, and i have quite a dilemma!
Here's the story: my group of friends and I have been playing WFB for probably 6 to 8 months now, and having a jolly time with it. We're doing a little tournament amongst ourselves, where the winner gets a little trophy and bragging rights. There's one guy that picked up a Dwarf army a month ago at the most, he's got an obnoxious 1-2 year old kid that he dosen't watch so he goes around spilling glue and breaking stuff, he's crass, cocky, he's incredibly careless with his miniatures, leaving them lying around on the floor and stuff, and worst of all: he's freakin unbeatable.
I beat him with my Dark Elf army the first time we played, but ever since then he's been nigh unstoppable.
We're in the tournament finals. Only two tiers stand between him and victory. I am his next opponent, and then after that he will be playing against either the Vampire Counts or the Lizardmen.
We are all under the impression that if I don't beat him this Sunday, nobody will.
So please, D.net, please give me the strategic edge I need to beat this jerk so that we don't have someone who will break the trophy shortly after receiving it win this tournament.

Here's the problem: I am restricted to the army that I made to fight in the tournament. I think it's a pretty good one... let me see if I can get the details of it.

Dreadlord w/ Manticore
-Sea Dragon Cloak
-Shield
-Caledor's Bane
-Armor of Eternal Servitude
-Talisman of Protection

Sorceress
-Focus Familiar

Master w/ Cold One
-Hydra Banner (battle standard)
5x Cold One Knights
-Dread Knight
-Musician
-Standard of Slaughter

Sorceress
-Sacrificial Dagger
-Pearl of infinite Bleakness
10x Warriors

10x Repeater Crossbowmen

5x Dark Riders
-Herald
-Musician
-Repeater Crossbows

War Hydra

2x Reaper Bolt Thrower

Assassin
-Extra hand weapon
-Repeater Handbow
-Cloak of Twilight
-Touch of Death
-Manbane

2x Cold one Chariot


____
and I think that's it. I know that he's got a lot of war machines, such as the organ gun and stuff, and an Anvil of Doom. Any advice would be very much appreciated!


EDIT: 8/14/2010
-This thread is dead and gone long ago, indeed.
But for the record: the man described in the beginning of this post is literally my best friend in the entire world. I was the best man at his marriage, and he at mine. I bashed on him in this situation out of recommendation from another forum member in order to receive aid quickly. Two-faced, yes. But, I was victorious in the battle against him thanks to the advice I got in this thread; and is that not the Dark Elf way?

[Uman]

I haven't really played Stunties..... but I've watched a friend use them at a tourney. Looking at your list, there's not a lot of troops there, so assaulting a Dwarf gunline will likely cost you with casualties... Your Dark Riders are probably your best bet at trying to cause some pain on his warmachines, especially if he deploys any on the flank - then again - he'll know that too

Your Assassin will be helpful - he needs to get out and start using his Cloak to wreak havoc in the Dwarf lines as soon as he can get there to save your hitty units (CoKs, Hydra and CoCs) from being blown apart as they cross the table to get into combat.

You have some edge in the magic phase, so try to capitalise on that... Dark (for Chillwind) and Metal (for high armour saves and lots of warmachines) are nice against Dwarfs... Shadow could be handy too to supplement movement (Steed) but your Assassin already has the Cloak, so actually probably not so handy in your case!

If you have a higher level mage and have a chance of getting a few spells - Death is quite good too - lots of S4 magic attacks, Fear/Terror causing and LD negative modifiers... I wouldn't pick it for a L1 or L2 over the other lores though, as they have more useful default spells I think.

You might as well deploy forwards to reduce the time you'll be under fire and also to give you some reaction time against any sneaky miners.

March blocking will be a pain, and Slayers will hold up your combat troops which you don't want - since they don't wear armour, they might be a good pick for your xbows...

I've never seen an Anvil used...

Good luck!!!


U

[Gruff]

First off, good luck!

Oooh... I wrote my army list critiques before reading your whole post, assuming you could tailor your army...sorry! it's going to be tough to suggest much with the restriction of not being able to change your army...

For next time, though, there are a couple of things that I'd suggest against in your army.

The Dreadlord on Manticore will get blown out of the air by a dwarf player with any shooting. The manticore is very weak to shooting.

Second, I'd personally prefer a Pendant of Khaeleth, Armour of Eternal Servitude, and Deathpiercer build. KB is going to be just as useful (or moreso) against high armour dwarves, and KB doesn't go away after the first round of combat, like the +3 str does on Caledor's bane. With the pendant you'll actually have a reliable ward save, too.

Third, I don't understand the setup of your second sorceress. Why the pearl? Dwarves aren't going to be causing a lot of psychology tests. If it's to avoid panic tests for sacrificing your warriors, I'd much prefer just buying more warriors.


For strategies with the army you have now?

It looks like a very fast army. You'll have to use that to full advantage to get into combat with a lot of strength very quickly. You'll melt to any shooting. Try to get combined charges against one unit at a time from him. If you cn get the Dreadlord/Manticore to break one of his units from the flank, you might even be able to overrun and start chewing through his army from one side of the board to the other. I'd personally try to deploy heavily on the flanks and leave the middle open. You have enough hammer units that you should be able to hit him hard on both sides of his line and work your way in.

Good luck again, and let us know how it goes!

[Starphoenix]

Based on the army you have described, terrain is going to have to play a large part in you strategy. The two keys will be to hide all of your army you can untill you are as close to his lines as possible; then you have to move all of your units into view/charge position all at once. If you give him the chance he will pick you appart unit by unit. Once you are engaged with his lines it will minimalise the effectiveness of his war machines. Speed is you biggest advantage against stubbies. Focus your attacks on his weaker units and just stay away from things like ironbreakers. Use a single die to cast POD with each spell caster and stick with Dark Magic. Yes, lore of Metal would be more effective against stubbies, but you probably aren't going to get too many spells off; so what you want are a lot of spell with low casting costs - make him burn his dispell dice and runes.

Last word of advice - keep a running tally in your head. Once you have enough points to win the battle, withdraw you units. The point of the battle isn't to wipe out the dwarves, it's simply to have fewer casualties. If you manage to take out a WM or two and a couple units of handgunners - make him come after you. Nothing is funnier than a turtling stubby lover realizing that he has to come out of his corner on turn 5 and try to catch a bunch of fleet-footed elves.

Good Luck

[Druchii77]

What the list really could use is some harpies. The easiest way to handle dwarves in my opinion is to take out their firebase first. Thus, you need to get your fast units into the warmachines and shooters before even considering taking out the blocks.

To this end, I would use the dark riders, the dreadlord,and perhaps a chariot to take out the warmachines. Although be careful of any organ guns. Use your shooting and magic to whittle down his dwarf handgunners and crossbows.

Then surround and combo charge his big blocks, though I would avoid anything any unit containing a dwarf lord or ironbreakers and hammerers. Go for the soft stuff.

[Cwoody0]

All good advice, for sure. Here's what I've gathered:
-Fast moving units are my friends here to get to the flanks and to take out the war machine crews.
-deploy mainly on the flanks and try to stick to the cover as much as possible
-stick to casting low-level spells w/ only one or two power dice to try to get him to burn through his dispells

The only problem is is the Anvil of Doom! That thing has a rune that when hit with "Ancient Power" does 2d6 s4 hits to d3 units - if the target can fly, they can't fly in the next movement phase, and if they can't fly, it cuts their movement in half! And as far as I know it doesn't even need LoS.
Another power it has is to let d3 dwarfs move or charge in their shooting phase, and the other one lets them re-roll panic and break tests and be immune to fear and terror.

That thing is just screwed up. There's a Runelord and two guards on the thing, and the runelord has S4 T5 as base, and Dwarf runic armor and weaponry is just crazy so he'll be even stronger than that.
Basically I've gathered that my one big advantage is my speed, but this jerk and his magic anvil can totally take that away from me. I guess I need to hope to get first turn, and then just through all means get to that Runelord.

[Starphoenix]

The Anvil can be a beast, but it's not unbeatable. First, if he uses ancient power - he has a 50/50 misfire rate. His unit is unbreakable, but he should be no match for your Dreadlord.
If he is using "Wrath and Ruin," on your Manticore - just keep it hidden behind trees, and safe from the rest of his gunline. 1D6 S4 will be ramdomized between the rider and the mount. If he is using ancient power, he should fail as often as he succeeds, and hopefully give you a turn or two to move in and attack.

[Cwoody0]

Huh that's a good point about the anvil I guess.
I am fairly hopeful, your guys' advice has given me some hope. I'm going to deploy entirely on the flanks, and I'll see if he'll go for secret deployment (we usually don't do secret deployment) so that I can get a little bit of a jump on him w/ his stuff being deployed mainly in the middle (I've seen how he does it, he puts his anvil in the middle and then deploys everything around it) I can totally pinsir him.
I'm trying to think about what units should be on which side, and I'm thinking this:
left side having Dreadlord, Sorceress w/ 10 warriors, crossbowmen squad, the Hydra, a bolt thrower, and a chariot.
Right side having Cold One Knights w/ Battle Standard bearer, Sorceress w/ Focus Familiar, the Dark Riders, a Bolt Thrower, and a chariot.
And then the Assassin kind of being where it seems like he might be needed, probably on the Right, as the left has 6 units and the right has 5.
How does that sound? I want it to be somewhat balanced on either side. I am starting to get delusions of grandeur about this game.

[Tony 92]

I'd deploy the Assassin as a Scout and then take out as many war machine crews as possible. Start with the organ gun. That can shred half a unit in one turn, which is painful.

The key to beating Dwarves is to rob them of their static combat resolution as you won't be causing many casualties. So hence you can use the Cold One Chariots and the Dark Riders.

Maybe offer up the Hydra as a distraction for the Dreadlord over his shooting. T5 and regeneration should keep wounds down to a minimum.

Anyway, good luck!

[Cwoody0]

Yeah that's probably a good idea actually, if I can get him somewhere where the dwarfs can't see him I'll totally do that.

[Kolathador]

one thing to keep in mind, does he have miners? I play dwarves and they have made the difference in a game, so watch your flanks for surprises...

[Cwoody0]

I don't think he does, actually. By what I've gathered is that his army is primarily war-machine based: he's got two flaming bolt throwers, two organ guns, a flaming great cannon, and the anvil of doom w/ his Runelord. I'm not sure what all that adds up to, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't have any miners. I sure hope he doesn't have miners anyways, I've got enough problems with this battle w/o having some jerks coming in and messing up my line or flanks.

[Rabidnid]

I don't think he does, actually. By what I've gathered is that his army is primarily war-machine based: he's got two flaming bolt throwers, two organ guns, a flaming great cannon, and the anvil of doom w/ his Runelord. I'm not sure what all that adds up to, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't have any miners. I sure hope he doesn't have miners anyways, I've got enough problems with this battle w/o having some jerks coming in and messing up my line or flanks.

Hide.

Seriously, put down loads of terrain and just hide the whole game. Its his choice to run a completely immobile gunline, show him that winning actually requires an army that can move.

If he does bring his troops forward, you might get an opportunty to kill a few things, but basically you shoudl be able to get a draw or victory without too much effort.

Use your sorc with familiar to snipe from a wood and kill any miners or other strays you can without risking his firepower.

If you get the chioce, let him go first, that way you can grab table quarters and charge some of his units on turn 6 without having to worry about exposed flanks or shooting as the game will have ended.

[Slortor]

I don't think he does, actually. By what I've gathered is that his army is primarily war-machine based: he's got two flaming bolt throwers, two organ guns, a flaming great cannon, and the anvil of doom w/ his Runelord. I'm not sure what all that adds up to, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't have any miners. I sure hope he doesn't have miners anyways, I've got enough problems with this battle w/o having some jerks coming in and messing up my line or flanks.

Hide.

Seriously, put down loads of terrain and just hide the whole game. Its his choice to run a completely immobile gunline, show him that winning actually requires an army that can move.

If he does bring his troops forward, you might get an opportunty to kill a few things, but basically you shoudl be able to get a draw or victory without too much effort.

only problem with that is the anvil - which doesnt require LOS to damage units and can give the dwarves an movement - so hiding behind a wood and watching the stunties march round wont neccesarily be safe...

the general advice seems exactly right though. Also - the thing with WandR, if you give him loads of targets he cant take them all out. I did that last time i played an Anvil (it was Thorek in fact),just sent in the Dread on his Manti, 2 units of DR, a Hydra and 2 units of shades - there was no way he could stop all that turn 1 and turn two i tied him up - just be careful about his other guns though

[Rabidnid]

Cool, had no idea what an anvil did and was hoping that it could at least be dispelled. In that case you will need to kill the little fat... um... person.

Lores

METAL could be a good choice as most of his guys have good armour saves, you can pick out characters with the 1st spell

DARK for chillwind, blade wind, word of pain and black horror.

DEATH for doom and darkness mostly, but also drain life ( a vry cute spell combined with the familiar).

[Cwoody0]

I won! By the end I just had him out-maneuvered, which is exactly what I was going for. I came in extremely heavily on the left flank, kept my Cold One Knights and Dreadlord screened behind the Hydra and Chariot, while he kept using Wrath and Ruin on my Lord, slowing him down.
I pretty much waited for him to botch his anvil roll, then my Cold One Knights and Lord charged two of his warmachines while my Chariot charged a squad of his shooters, all three of them plowed through off the table, then came back my turn where I moved them all in to positions where they couldn't be seen and then I charged a big block of Stunties with my Knights and my Chariot while the Lord charged the Anvil of Doom. The Knights and Chariot killed every Stuntie w/o even counting combat resolution, then the Knights charged through to hit the Anvil from the other side, it was beautiful.
I steered clear of his unbreakable squad, Longbeards I think he said ... basically they were Immune to Psycology, Stubborn, and they each counted as double - so they were a unit of 40 - ? I also kept his great cannon crew tied up for 3 or 4 turns with my Dark Riders.
Anyways, in the end, we were even with standards, neither of us had killed the others general, but i had three table quarters while he didn't have any, giving me an extra 300 points... making me win by 176.
Technically a draw, yes, but enough for a win in the tournament.
So next I fight the Vampire Counts! Any suggestions?

[Slortor]

well first - congratulations on the win good to see our advice paid off.

What can you tell us about the vampire players build? Fighty? Magicy?

General advice though - killing the general is always good. Make sure whatever you hit that you hit it hard, you need to kill units in one or two turns else they'll just keep coming back. Watch out for the Danse as well.

Thats pretty much it till you can say a bit more about the opponent - congrats again.

[Cwoody0]

I heard from my Lizardmen friend that played him yesterday that his General is like crazy powerful, He's on a horse that has 9" movement, his close combat attacks auto-hit w/ S7, and every wound he deals he gets another attack.
Also I guess he's a lvl 3 caster? I dunno.
He's got some Wraiths, as well as a wight king w/ an item that takes away his enemy's charging bonus and makes it go at initiative 1, and stuff.
But according to my Lizardmen friend, the majority of his army is pretty weak. So we'll see, huh?

[Mirz do ordas 2]

well,

to be honest, your list is to small (in nr of units) to be able to cope iwth a VP ;ost unless you can kill the general.

in this list, only your assassin has a chance at killing the general. the dreadlord will die due to his mount being a softy.

mm a wight lord with the light armour/ shroud, that was one i never thought off. o was always combineing that item with scpouting vampires to be honest, buyt a wight king cannot stand prolonged combat, and it only works BtB (and a WK is the perfect BSB in a big unit, not solo)

unless it is the first VC army with 2 WK (loses in magic), hyst remember the amrour only works BtB

[Mirz do ordas 2]

BTB

the shroud, can only be used on foot (and really an unmounted BSB wightlord????)
th M 9 is a talisman that can also only be used on foot, but the nightmare (1W mount) does give flying (20 move)

[Starphoenix]

Congrats!

Advice is pretty much the exact opposite of what it was last time. This time you have the shooting advantage; so use it to the fullest. Let him come to you. Move you DR and COC's into the flanks. Focus fire on a single unit at a time (pref. w/ a caster in it) and pound it until it is gone. Take out his casters as fast as you can.

Lastly, don't be lulled into a false sense of security. The first three turns should go to you, but undead are a turn 5-6 army.

GL

[Hans von darkelf]

stealth hydra as starphoenix says let him come to you but hide the scaly beasty behind some terrain until he/she/it reachs you and then jump a few units , hydras can be pretty much unstoppable 7 str5 ws 4 attacks with eternal hatred is nothing to besniffed at and not to forget the 6 armour pierceing attcks from the beastmasters good luck

[Cwoody0]

Good advice Starphoenix, I've played this particular guy before on several occasions, and he actually picked up a High Elf army because we all decided that the Vampires are overpowered, like the Tyranids in 40k.
I am confident, however, that I'll do fairly well against him as we were all newbies at the time and I didn't really realize that it's not really good for a "wipe them out on the charge w/ combat resolution" style army list to get stuck in w/ large numbers of fear-causing units... so last time I played him I shot at him like crazy and actually won. So we'll see what happens! It's not going to be this weekend, so it should be next weekend, but it may not be because I might have to come in to work then... so I've got some time to devise a devious plan. I like putting my cold one riders and the dreadlord on the flanks though, I'll totally do that.

[Aspiring executioner]

My advice for his taking down Knight Lord of Doom, is charge your Manti into him. The Manti has killing blow and if that fails then the 4 str 7 attacks should kill him, as he shouldn't have a ward save if he has the Dreadlance and other items. Or use your Assassin which is probably a much safer option. As others have said focus on one unit a turn and make sure they are all dead, don't even let 1 model remain standing.

Use your Lord or use magic against the wraiths (Bladewind is particularly brutal against wraiths and most other undead units). Be careful of that Wight King, make sure if he challenges use your champions and not your characters as he probably has the Sword of Kings which gives KB on a 5+ and if he doesn't manage to kill your champ, well they have a shot at taking him out.

Hope this helps and good luck.

[Cwoody0]

Alas, I lost. He got about 1600 points, and I got about 800.
But it wasn't my fault: I rolled atrociously. My Lord on the Manticore was held up by a unit of cavalry for literally three turns, while his lord wreaked havok along my lines. I basically had 26 rolls over the course of the game where my Manticore should have has a Killing Blow against his BSB Wight King. 26 attacks for the Manticore, 26 attacks from the Lord. Didn't even wound him once. It was infuriating.
And I miscast explosively with both my sorceresses, so his Carin Wraiths pretty much went unchallenged so they could kill my war machine crew.
But, the Cold One Knights and Hydra literally conquered the right side of the map for me, which was pretty glorious, the Hydra killing 4 of his squads on its own over the course of 2 turns, and the Cold One riders killing 2 units in one turn at the same time.
But, he got my general, which was over 500 points, as well as one more corner. I didn't touch his cavalry (that my lord spent so long screwing around with), his lord, or his Carin Wraiths, which were his expensive units.
I gotta say, I just plain and simple don't like playing the Vampire Counts, I think they're OP like crazy, and it's just an uphill battle the whole way, and one bad roll can totally screw everything up.
Bunch of undead jerks!