Making the manti work in 2k

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Valvet
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Making the manti work in 2k

Post by Valvet »

I have just finished a new model for a noble/dreadlord on manticore and i have been wondering about how i would get the most of it.

It's most obvious use seems to be in games under 2000 points for it can be chosen as a mount for a noble. In smaller point sizes it seems to be a very popular choice.

But looking at lists around 2k, the manticore seems to be seen less and less.
So I wanted to know what you thought of how it is best used:
Is it a good idea to upgrade the rider to a dreadlord, or is a noble enough to do the job? What roles does the manti fit, and what builds support it?

Thanks for your input.
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Post by Druchii77 »

It isn't very optimal at 2K+, but that doesn't mean it isn't feasible. People tend to stick with what is safe. Manticores have no armor and can go frenzy on you. This makes them less attractive. I for one love the model and have a built a list to use with it. It should be fun.
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Post by Mordru »

It can be very effective in 2k level games because it allows the following often desirable options.

An extra terror causing monster, high mobility hitting power for a noble that does not need to be the general, can be kitted out to be the BSB either with or without magic banner.
I like to run him with deathpiercer and AoD. Yes its 330 points but you are looking at a model with 7 killing blow attacks with a minimum S5 on the charge.

They are vulnerable to shooting and so some care must be taken with them.
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Post by Kheel »

@Mordru: Yes its 330 points but you are looking at a model with 7 killing blow attacks with a minimum S5 on the charge.

The fact that the Manticore has KB is why I play it. If it would not have KB, I would never take it even in smaller games. The frenzy is what makes it unrelyable - but a noble with 9LD can usually keep it at bay - durin a 6 turn game you usally fail it an average of 2 turn, at least in my case. Though, manticore being a large target, it is a magnet for arrows and any shooting and magic - rarely has it survived a whole game versus a shooty opponent.

I would considder the option of a master on pegasus with Deathmask (if you want a cheap Terror causer - 194 points or 219 points as BSB). With full mundane with Lance for smaller games. This model can hide behind friendly troops, and is also what I make my BSB sometimes rather than on a manticore.
Its mobile, can hit relatively hard in flanks with 3 St 6 and 2 St 5 on the charge with hatred, usually carries out 3-4 wounds on T4 models.

It comes down to the what the rest of your army looks like and if you are faced with an opponent such as WoC who have a high save. A manticore will simply eat them up with its KB :)
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Post by Roodz »

Mines the same as mordru - bsb, mant, DP and AoD.

i want to get it working too as i like the model and its already converted and painted.
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Post by Sulla »

I quite enjoy using a dreadlord on manti with 3 sorceresses occasionally. I costs about the same as a dragon lord and 2 sorceresses but lets me have a little more magic protection and with power of darkness, makes the army quite a bit more hitty in the magic department than just 2 levle 2's.

The manticore is a lot more vulnerable to rank and file shooting than the dragon but fits my playstyle for large flyers better (more of a patient hunter style than an up the guts type).

I do have a BSB manticore master painted too but I don't see much opportunity to use both vs my regular opponents. Too much magic in their lists.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

The Manticore does seem to have become a collector of dust on many a shelf these days. I never use it myself. Haven't done for years. Not since I got my first dragon. I just never seem to find a viable place for it in any of my lists.
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Post by Mordru »

It depends to a large extent on your gaming environment. Dragons are frowned on in some places whereas the Manticore is not seen as over the top. There is a significant level of resentment for the unkillable dreadlord on dragon build.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Agreed. Most of the groups I play in though use min/max armies so the Manti' becomes somewhat of a liability.

However, I do like the idea of a Level 4 riding one. Give her the focus familiar and possibly the Black Dragon Egg + whatever else you fancy. Add in a Level 2 for support, the BSB/pendant combo, some DRs and Harpies, a Hydra, 2 RBTs, some COKs with the ring of hotek and maybe a couple of Chariots ought to make for a reasonable list.
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Post by Valvet »

That s actually my point, many of the players in my group don't like the use of a dragon. And i don't blame them, facing the dragon with O&G doesn't seem like fun to me.

I also thought about using a sorc on manti, but i prefer the peg as her mount, because in a magic heavy army i don't want to spend the 150 points, as the sorcs are already very expensive as it is.

I also found that i would rather use a master to ride it, to keep the point-costs low.
My main question is now, what army would best fit it's use.
What are your ideas on this one? i would like to hear some opinions and thoughts, how the manti could see a comeback from the dusty shelves.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Manticore doesn't take up any extra hero slot though when you give it to a Supreme Sorceress. Then, in the later turns of the game she can add to the combat prowess of the army.
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Post by Valvet »

That is a valid point you mention about the hero slots.

But i think, in combination with the supreme sorc somewhat limits the mantis potential. When you have a sorc on top you obviously wouldn't risk a charge on anything that has even the most remote chance of striking back at her. This limits the choice of charge targets and takes away one nasty feature of the beast: the killing blow.
I think that one great use of the manti to hunt for enemy characters, which i personally wouldn't do, is if i would risk my supreme sorceress with such a charge.

But the main problem i have with the combination you suggested is the frenzy, thats one that shouldn't be forgotten here: chances are, that your supreme sorc will be forced to charge in on any target, easily resulting in loosing her. I think thats to big a risk for a model that sums up at over 500 points.

Thats my main concern and it can also be a problem for a master/draedlord on manti.

It doesn't look good for Khaine's pet. Can anybody help out here? Maybe a nice army build or some positive experiences?
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Valvet wrote:That is a valid point you mention about the hero slots.

But i think, in combination with the supreme sorc somewhat limits the mantis potential. When you have a sorc on top you obviously wouldn't risk a charge on anything that has even the most remote chance of striking back at her. This limits the choice of charge targets and takes away one nasty feature of the beast: the killing blow.
I think that one great use of the manti to hunt for enemy characters, which i personally wouldn't do, is if i would risk my supreme sorceress with such a charge.

Ok, let's look at your first point then (I'm actually getting quite interested in fielding this combo now I'm discussing it :lol: ). Taking a Level 4 on a Manticore I would more often than not go for Dark Magic. Assuming I get Soulstear I have a very good chance of getting her up to 6 wounds fairly quickly. Given the Black Dragon Egg to make her t6 if she gets unexpectedly charged and all of a sudden she is pretty damn hard to kill.

Lore of Death has Steal Soul. A couple of successful castings of that spell and she is looking very healthy all of a sudden. And don't forget, thanks to the new 7th ed faq you still get an additional wound for her even if the enemy save it with their ward :?


But the main problem i have with the combination you suggested is the frenzy, thats one that shouldn't be forgotten here: chances are, that your supreme sorc will be forced to charge in on any target, easily resulting in loosing her. I think thats to big a risk for a model that sums up at over 500 points.

That is a problem that the focus familiar helps to overcome. Set her up facing away from the enemy. Or behind interposing terrain and use the familiar for casting.

Even so, once her wound count is up and depending upon her other equipment she could be pretty formidable in a combat phase. The forced charge to avoid is one into lots of static combat res, but then again she fights first as it is her charge and the frenzy gives the Manticore that extra attack chance for another KB. Even at s5, 5 attacks is still pretty damn nasty. Especially if there is a unit champion to challenge.

So all is not necessarily lost.

And that is before you take into consideration whatever else might be in your list. Including the possibility of her having the pendant for example, or her being able to benefit from a 5+ COB blessing.

There are lots of options and ways to protect her.


Thats my main concern and it can also be a problem for a master/draedlord on manti.

It doesn't look good for Khaine's pet. Can anybody help out here? Maybe a nice army build or some positive experiences?
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Post by Demetrius »

In all of my army lists, I always use a manti master/ Dreadlord. They always perform high, and if you play them right, they can tear through opponents army. If you work them up a flank first couple of turns, then fly behind enemy lines, you can scare off most of the enemy missile troops, then put yourself in a position to charge a big unit in the rear with CoKs are something boosted by CoB in the front. This combo breaks just about anything.

Yes, they arent as effective as Dragons, but they also cost 120 points less, and still have the potential to do almost as good. I normally have a unit of DRs running behind my Manti to shoot at enemy skirmishers/ missile troops.

Oh, and also, you can have a manticore in less than 2k points! Just for that, they should be widely used.
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Post by Brad »

Kheel wrote:The frenzy is what makes it unrelyable - but a noble with 9LD can usually keep it at bay - durin a 6 turn game you usally fail it an average of 2 turn, at least in my case.


This might be a silly question but what test are you talking about? Frenzy is automatic, there's no Ld test involved.

One point I haven't seen mentioned about the manticore is that with a rider it is US5, which means it can break ranks and itself gain the flank/rear bonus. Charging a full unit in the flank means you are only at -1 in static CR (outnumber + standard - flank) - it's likely you'll get the two casualties required to win the combat even if you have charged in unsupported.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Here's a list for you...

Level 4 - Manticore, focus familiar, scroll, black dragon egg, null talisman
Level 2 - dark steed, scroll, darkstar cloak
Master - BSB, dark steed, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, pendant of khaleth, sword of might

5 DRs - rxbs
5 DRs - rxbs
10 Warriors - rxbs
5 Harpies
5 Harpies

5 Shades
6 Cold One Knights - standard, champion, banner of Hag Graef, ring of Hotek

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
War Hydra

Assassin - cloak of twilight, manbane, rending stars

2249pts
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Post by Mordru »

Brad wrote:
Kheel wrote:The frenzy is what makes it unrelyable - but a noble with 9LD can usually keep it at bay - durin a 6 turn game you usally fail it an average of 2 turn, at least in my case.


This might be a silly question but what test are you talking about? Frenzy is automatic, there's no Ld test involved.


The frenzy only occurs if the riders fails a leadership test to control the Manticore. The test must be taken at the start of each turn. It is right there in the army book you must have just missed it.
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Post by Brad »

Well I did say it was a silly question ;) For some reason I was thinking the manti is just Frenzied, not Uncontrollable. :oops:
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Post by Valvet »

@Dark Alliance: I see where you are going, it's a nice list.

I think you have a point with your high sorc on manti, she seems to be a very flexible choice that fulfills many and different roles.
I still feel frenzy could become a problem for her, but as you pointed out, the FF can offer some help here. Even if the need for spells that bring her life up may limit her choices of lores, i still think she has a potential and i will consider using her in a list similar to the one you suggested.

Thanks a lot for the tip, also if you plan on trying it for yourself, i would be very interested how it works out.


Opposed to DA's magic heavy attempt i came up with a concept of an army with master on manti, that has no magic at all.

It's a MSU-styled army with many core-choices and small unit of elites using two masters one on manti and one on steed.
But see for yourselves, it can be found here:
http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=59875 (the edited list is a bit further down the page)

Unfortunately i have not yet playtested it, but i think that the manti would work well with the concept of MSU, as it doesn't take up too many points, leaving me with more units on the field. It's mobiity is a major factor, because setting up multiple charges is a lot easier, when the flying beast can threaten multiple units at a time. Lastly i hope that the number of targets i present will result in my enemy having to divide his attention to many threats leaving the manti with less attention of all the nasty shooters.

Do you think this could be a viable possibility to use the manti?
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Post by Duke daedric »

As mantioned in some other posts the "Ring of Darkness" does seem to add to the survivability of the beast, however that is mostly a "Dreadlord" option.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Valvet wrote:@Dark Alliance: I see where you are going, it's a nice list.

I think you have a point with your high sorc on manti, she seems to be a very flexible choice that fulfills many and different roles.
I still feel frenzy could become a problem for her, but as you pointed out, the FF can offer some help here. Even if the need for spells that bring her life up may limit her choices of lores, i still think she has a potential and i will consider using her in a list similar to the one you suggested.

There are 2 lores which gain her wounds, with Dark magic being the best one. It also happens to be one of the best lores in the game and the one I use in 9 out of 10 games.

The only times I consider anything else are against WOC, where I tend to favour Metal and sometimes Fire against WEs. Only rarely though with Woodies would I change from Dark magic.

When using Metal lore against Chaos, there is little to worry about in the shooting phase so she can get into a better position, even consider charging a unit of Knights in the flank with her. Maybe even one of those small units of Warriors very much in favour at the moment. Don't forget she is a rank buster after all.


Thanks a lot for the tip, also if you plan on trying it for yourself, i would be very interested how it works out.

I think I will actually. There are a couple of 2250pt tournaments in the UK each year and it just might gain an outing. I do like it.


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Post by Cathel »

I even include it in small games sometimes.
Frenzy is a bit of a liability, but if you have more than one target in view and 20" you may still choose which to attack, as you can see over "not large" targets.

For me it worked great and easily got back it's point value.
It works very well versus bretonnians and ogres. Brets are threatened, cannot march and have to test for terror, also killing blow and high S attacks conme in handy. Ogres do not have to terror test and are not KB'ed, but also I do not ahve to test for fear to charge and If I can find a single character, he is likely to autobreak due to fear.
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Post by The skaerkrow »

The Manticore is one of my absolute favorite units in the Dark Elf army, and I've always run one @ 2,250 points (usually as a mount for a Master). The configuration that I use is a Master w/ Sword of Might, Armor of Eternal Servitude, Sea Dragon Cloak and Shield. This allows the model to deliver 7 Strength 5 attacks per combat round (9 when Frenzied) even after the initial charge, making it a credible threat to just about everything.
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Post by Promises »

When I have a master on my manticore I often find myself hoping to fail the control test after turn 1. If it does fail, you almost get the hitting power of a lord on a dragon, and with the manti positioned in turn 1 and it being a large target flyer you've got a plethora of choices to charge. Fact remains that the beasty dies very, very easily, be it in combat or to shooting/magic. I guess Ring of Darkness can help, and just being very carefull with it in the first few turns to ensure you silence threats to it.

I'm not sure about magicusers on big beasties just because its a bit frowned upon in our circle (we all play rather soft lists). I guess a SS on a Manti wouldnt be too bad but I think i'd go for the dragon in that case, its a bit more points and a slot but the dragons increased potential in stats and breath do seem worth it.

I wouldnt call the Manticore a useless choice, but its certainly a tricky one and one that needs some speical care. It looks great and tbh feels quite good tho.
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Manti choices

Post by Kierath heartshard »

Greetings fellow Druchii. Let me say first that I am a fan of the model, and converted Malus to be my Dreadlord on Manti. However, time and again I have been disappointed with the performance of said beastie. Admittedly this may be due to poor tactics, but it does not seem to pack the punch or instill the terror that the model seems to promise. I recently played the DL on manti combo as part of a 2k league army at my gaming club. With few exceptions it failed to delight. The set up was as follows:-

Dreadlord-Heavy Armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, PoK, Sword of might

manticore

I had envisioned it ripping through my foes with contemptuous ease. Alas more often than not it was shot to bits, charged (don't ask) or was out on the flank somewhere trying to get close enough to cause a terror test. All for the proncely sum of 410 points. In future the DL is getting a Cold One, and I'll spend the points on serried ranks of spears, as they were great.
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