Hi
I'm looking to beef up my shooting phase and was wondering about the following two options:
1) 2x 10 Rxbelves with shields and 2x 5 Shades with AHW
2) 1x 10 Rxbelves with shields and 1x 8 Shades with GWs and 1x 8 Shades with AHW.
Option 1)
a) has more shots, although a higher percentage of lower BS shots.
b) has more deployments (good or bad).
c) it keeps all the units cheap and disposable.
d) is more susceptible to enemy shooting and panic (easier to hit the Rxbs and quick to panic the Shades.
e) has quite good defensive close combat potential.
Option 2) has the opposite of the above and is more flexible.
Which do you think is the better option?
PS I'm sorry if this would be better placed in the Army List section. I wasn't sure if the post equated more to a tactics debate or an army list debate.
Shades v Rxbelves
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
Shades v Rxbelves
Anything but a one... It's a one!
But I've got a reroll... OK that's a one too!!
But I've got a reroll... OK that's a one too!!
I say go with option 1 but give GW to shades. A unit of 8 shades is to big to scout and march block effectivly. With option 1 you are spreading your opponents shooting out, thus minimizing the chance of a unit being hammered by shooting. Even if a unit does get taken out, there is another one to take its place.
Go with option 1, 2 units of shades are never going to both be able to scout and while they are slightly better at shooting RXB men are much cheaper. I'd also give them Great Weapons, this is almost always the more successful option.
With specific unit sizes, I dont like 8 as most of them wont be able to get into combat which is a bit of a waste.
With specific unit sizes, I dont like 8 as most of them wont be able to get into combat which is a bit of a waste.
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Rabidnid
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Bounce wrote:Go with option 1, 2 units of shades are never going to both be able to scout and while they are slightly better at shooting RXB men are much cheaper. I'd also give them Great Weapons, this is almost always the more successful option.
With specific unit sizes, I dont like 8 as most of them wont be able to get into combat which is a bit of a waste.
Yeah 2x5 or 9 works for me. Mine are 2HW and LA for 18 points, mostly because I like the look of them.
"Luck is the residue of design"
Personally I'd go with option 3.
2x10 Crossbows, 1x9 Shades.
It does depend on what you want your shades to accomplish. I like having a big group to provide some combat capability, good shooting support, survivability. It isn't as good (as said above) at march blocking, it's not quite as throwaway as having two smaller groups though.
2x10 Crossbows, 1x9 Shades.
It does depend on what you want your shades to accomplish. I like having a big group to provide some combat capability, good shooting support, survivability. It isn't as good (as said above) at march blocking, it's not quite as throwaway as having two smaller groups though.
I agree with nesun, scouting also means that you can deploy the units in your own deployment if you cant find a good spot for them, and that can be a large advantage in itself. Even if they dont deploy in a scouting position they ALWAYS have an edge in the deployment phase, since they can be deployed after your opponent put all his untis down on the table.
Im a fan of Shades, I think they are amoung the best units in the DE book. Generally Id pick Shades over RxBs anyday. They cost 5-7 points more per model, which is pretty steep, but they gain:
1) Skirmish rule. This is a huge advantage for any missle unit. Skirmishers pretty much always gets to shoot with every1 in the unit because of their 360 LOS, and since they can deploy in any shape they dont risk getting blocked by other units (I remember playing a WE opponent with 50 GGs, he never got to shoot with more than 25-30 per turn). It also means you dont have to move to be able to shoot harassers. Fast cav / flyers coming down your flank is a huge problem for RXBs, if they have to turn they often need 6s to hit. Skirmishers also gain som survivability vs shooting, I'd take -1 to hit over a 5+ save anyday. Most spells and missle attacks are gonna bring that 5+ down to 6+ or worse.
2) WS 5, BS 5. This is another huge advantage. The ballistic skill kinda speaks for itself, you get more out of your shots. But the WS means you hit most stuff on 3+ with a reroll, which means 8 out of 9 attacks successfully hits, ouch!
3) Weapon option. GWs. GWs GWs GWs. Skirmish rule makes sure you get the maximum amount of models into combat, usually 7, which means they do 6.2 S5 hits on avarage, which is better than most elite combat infantry in other armys. If you bring a CoB and give them +1A they strike harder than Chaos Knights!! Even without the CoB they are still a force to be reckon with even in CC, unlike RxBs. AHW is pretty cool looking but imo vastly inferior to GWs. If you face low T with no or little armor then AHW is better, but then you should be shooting it to death instead.
4) Versatility. The tactical flexibility is great. Arm them with GWs and they are hammers, harassers, mage hunters, war machine hunters, shooting support and marsh blockers all in one. They might be more expensive than RXBs, but when they can take the role that normally would be filled by CoKs, harpies, dark riders AND RXBs all in one, they are pretty cheap.
Their biggest weakness is no dought survavability. Its limited vs shooting and against anything that either auto hits or have high BS they just die like flies. 18 point flies >.< ....
Dont assume its RXBs vs Shades tho. Shades can fill other units roles, so you can take 2x10 RXBs and let the shades replace other untis, such as DRs or CoKs. Play test them and see what sizes you like, and what role you give them while playing. If you never ever feel the need to use them in combat then GWs is pretty pointless, if you use them as a throw away harrasser then US 8+ is pretty wasteful. It all depends on what the rest of your army is.
Im a fan of Shades, I think they are amoung the best units in the DE book. Generally Id pick Shades over RxBs anyday. They cost 5-7 points more per model, which is pretty steep, but they gain:
1) Skirmish rule. This is a huge advantage for any missle unit. Skirmishers pretty much always gets to shoot with every1 in the unit because of their 360 LOS, and since they can deploy in any shape they dont risk getting blocked by other units (I remember playing a WE opponent with 50 GGs, he never got to shoot with more than 25-30 per turn). It also means you dont have to move to be able to shoot harassers. Fast cav / flyers coming down your flank is a huge problem for RXBs, if they have to turn they often need 6s to hit. Skirmishers also gain som survivability vs shooting, I'd take -1 to hit over a 5+ save anyday. Most spells and missle attacks are gonna bring that 5+ down to 6+ or worse.
2) WS 5, BS 5. This is another huge advantage. The ballistic skill kinda speaks for itself, you get more out of your shots. But the WS means you hit most stuff on 3+ with a reroll, which means 8 out of 9 attacks successfully hits, ouch!
3) Weapon option. GWs. GWs GWs GWs. Skirmish rule makes sure you get the maximum amount of models into combat, usually 7, which means they do 6.2 S5 hits on avarage, which is better than most elite combat infantry in other armys. If you bring a CoB and give them +1A they strike harder than Chaos Knights!! Even without the CoB they are still a force to be reckon with even in CC, unlike RxBs. AHW is pretty cool looking but imo vastly inferior to GWs. If you face low T with no or little armor then AHW is better, but then you should be shooting it to death instead.
4) Versatility. The tactical flexibility is great. Arm them with GWs and they are hammers, harassers, mage hunters, war machine hunters, shooting support and marsh blockers all in one. They might be more expensive than RXBs, but when they can take the role that normally would be filled by CoKs, harpies, dark riders AND RXBs all in one, they are pretty cheap.
Their biggest weakness is no dought survavability. Its limited vs shooting and against anything that either auto hits or have high BS they just die like flies. 18 point flies >.< ....
Dont assume its RXBs vs Shades tho. Shades can fill other units roles, so you can take 2x10 RXBs and let the shades replace other untis, such as DRs or CoKs. Play test them and see what sizes you like, and what role you give them while playing. If you never ever feel the need to use them in combat then GWs is pretty pointless, if you use them as a throw away harrasser then US 8+ is pretty wasteful. It all depends on what the rest of your army is.
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Cheers for the comments, they have certainly given me a bit more food for thought.
I'm going to try Option 1 out tomorrow, as I like to have throwaway units (as I ain't that good). I can find 5 points to give one of the units GWs and will see how they go.
I'm going to try Option 1 out tomorrow, as I like to have throwaway units (as I ain't that good). I can find 5 points to give one of the units GWs and will see how they go.
Anything but a one... It's a one!
But I've got a reroll... OK that's a one too!!
But I've got a reroll... OK that's a one too!!