The Druchii are based on Colonial American Slavers?

[Sistine_shrapnel]

So, I think it's fair to say that nearly every race in Warhammer has some basis in a real-world culture. The World Map even looks extremely similar to our world's geography. The Empire, for example, is based on the Holy Roman Empire, while the Brettonians are a cross between High Medieval France and the Court of King. The Lizardmen are the Aztecs, and the kingdoms of "Araby" and "Nippon" don't even try to conceal their similarity to real-world cultures.

Now, where does that leave the Dark Elves? They live in the equivalent of North America, are all very pale, and take slaves from everywhere they can. I think the comparison is pretty easy to make.

The fact that slavery is such a big part of Druchii culture has always bothered me, but this puts a whole new layer of weird on it for me.

[Loki]

You are wandering into dangerous territory here with some politics in this discussion. You seem to be implying that Americans are all white and take slaves. I'll be watching this thread very closely.

[Rabidnid]

Elves aren't human, and your analogy doesn't explain orcs, VC, dwaves, chaos or skaven.

Its a game.

[Sistine_shrapnel]

Loki - I'm sorry, I should have approached the subject more delicately. It's a sensitive one, after all.

What I meant was not that contemperary or colonial American culture is equivalent to Dark Elf culture, and certainly not that all Americans are white and take slaves. I meant that the druchii seem to be based on white Colonial slave-takers in the same way that the Empire are based on the Holy Roman Empire. Of course it's a game, as Rabidnid said, and I don't intend to point fingers at GW or accuse anyone of anything.

The problem I have is this: slavery is already a concept so loaded with historical and cultural baggage that I don't see why, in a fantasy world, in needs to be further associated with its real historical practice. It removes it from the fantasy and makes me uncomfortable playing the army.

Rabidnid:

The analogy isn't perfect, and some of the races do lie outside of it. Though the comparisons aren't as strong, you could argue that the Orcs are the Scots, the Beastmen are the Barbarians of Gaul, the VC are Transylvanians, etc. You could even say that the High Elves are Atlanteans.

You could also argue that elves are human, inasmuch as they represent ourselves only magnified. They are what we would be if we could live forever and had our emotional intensity amped up. Similarly, while Skaven don't have an exact cultural parallel, they are "a characterful, black parody of mankind and ultimately embody everything that is wrong with humanity, only more so" (from the 7th Ed Armybook Intro).

[Sulla]

Pretty sure americans never rode dinosaurs, chariots or dragons either. And even the most fantical telly-vangelist has a long way to go before he reaches the levels of a witch elf hag.

The elven archetypes in warhammer are far too developed to fit on one human race. The DE share some characteristics of a stylised version of imperial rome (megalomaniacal ruler, slavery, treachery, assassins, poison etc). You (OP) would be far better off looking towards them for inspiration than colonial america...

[Sistine_shrapnel]

Well, see my post above. I'm not saying the two are exactly the same, or that modern American culture resembles Dark Elf culture.

It's a good point that the druchii resemble Ancient Rome, but I should clarify that I'm not looking at Colonial America for inspiration, just pointing out that I'm bothered by the parallel.

[Loki]

Yeah, while America might have been one of the last western societies to have slavery, they were hardly the ones who came up with the idea. By your analogy, any country in western Europe would suffice.

[Rabidnid]

The problem I have is this: slavery is already a concept so loaded with historical and cultural baggage that I don't see why, in a fantasy world, in needs to be further associated with its real historical practice.

Only in the USA. The rest of the world, even where it used slavery, did not have the same attitude towards the people it enslaved. The Imperial Roman model is much closer to the Druchii model.

[Sistine_shrapnel]

True. Many ancient societies practiced slavery. What seems to make the analogy for me though is the fact that the Dark Elves live in the equivalent of North America. The continents of the Warhammer world look like ours with a few small differences. Lustria is situated in the South America equivalent and Naggaroth is above it.

Link to an image of the map:

http://www.axiomfiles.com/Files/180936/ ... ground.jpg

Then again, maybe the Dark Elves are Canadians...

[Eccelex]

I've been wondering the same because:
- perfect fit empire/roman
- perfect fit bretonnian/medieval age
- perfect fit lizardmen/aztecs
- perfect fit dark elves/usa territory wise... -> wut?

Indeed whb is based on the real world, but now our dark elves are more like nazis than americans to me... They do not exterminate but cruelty wise they maybe are even worse (if you can compare love of torture /vs/ will to exterminate.. cruelty wise...), and yup it makes me feel uncomfortable

Now its just a game so whatever...

[Auere]

I agree with sistine here. Alot of warhammer actually ressembles the medival "real world". I mean, just look at the map! Apart from Ulthuan its almost the same...

Brettonians: France, with french names for cities and characters and roughly some of the same units. Love for cavalry in shiny armour!

Empire: Holy Roman Empire. Obviously. Industry and german references all over.

DoW: Now the mercenaries REALLY cut it out. Estalia/Tilea = Italian states. I mean Pavise Crossbowmen and pikemen anyone? That is like the definition of medival and renesance Italy. And norse marauders are obviously vikings, cossacks kind of give them selves away and the list goes on...

Lizardmen: Aztecs / Inkas. The similarities in weapon choices are obvious.

It gets a little more difficult with the undead (partly because they are undead, ofcourse), but at least the tomb kings have some references to egypt.

Dwarves and Orcs and Goblins are obviously not alike any real world medival states, but their homelands position on the warhammer world makes one think of the 1000 year long struggle between "The hordes of the east" (Ottomans, timurids, mongols) and the last christian bastions to the east, namely austria, hungary, serbien... The O&G are a horde-army after all :-) Their weaponry choices dont neccesarily confirm this theory, though...

Skaven is the medival rat plight, now made into something even more monstreous in WHFB.

Chaos and the realm of chaos is pure fantasy, while beastmen would ressemble savage european tribes.

Now as for the elves. Its really a LotR-thing. They dont really connect well with the medival states. Wood Elves and their longbows can point towards england and the whole robin hood thing.
The untamed and dangerous Naggaroth is clearly positioned like north america but I cant really see the whole slavery and evil Dark Elf style fitting with the colony culture of the first americans, who were mostly oppotunists looking for a new future. Dark Elves are trapped in their ancient hatred and constantly try to reclaim their old homeland. There are no similarities, and the whole going around the globe collecting slaves actually points more at the european powers at the time.

[Eccelex]

Oh c'mon, don't try to rely everything to real world... The background has some roots in the real world for sure but it's'also about dwarfs and stuff, like any other fantasy world: they are just making it cookie-cutter... Therefore there is no need to try to rely dwarfs and such to our real world

Now btw, another one: kislev = russia obviously

About the empire it makes me think more about napoleon or the period just before, because of its technology..

[Dalamar]

Druchii - Ancient Rome, a mix of its golden age and fall into decadence.

[Handsome jack]

Are you kidding me. First of all, I deal with real world problems all day,this game is a way to relax and get away from the stress. I think somebody has way to much time on there hands when we need to start taking political correctness into account when choosing our wfb armies. And am I supposed to feel guilty about being American. I didn't get that message I guess. I'm going to continue slaving and pillaging guilt free in the wfb world, if this bothers some people maybe they should stick to playing high elves.

[Enkiel]

Druchii - Ancient Rome, a mix of its golden age and fall into decadence.

kinda make sense... but didnt they use to "release" their slave once in awhile in Ancient Rome?

Dont think i ever seen that part in Dark Elves lore.

[Rabidnid]

Druchii - Ancient Rome, a mix of its golden age and fall into decadence.

kinda make sense... but didnt they use to "release" their slave once in awhile in Ancient Rome?

Dont think i ever seen that part in Dark Elves lore.

they lost that when they aquired the pointy ears.

[Layne]

Well I should say the most relevant point of allegory between Naggaroth and the US would be that both societies were originally built by political and religious exiles. After that they start to differ ; the first Americans were voluntary exiles, seeking freedom form persecution [and so indeed were a lot of the later migrants, but by no means all] The Dark Elves were not voluntary exiles. They were left with no where to stand, so they took what little remained, and floated away swearing revenge. Also, the Americans were private individuals united by their beliefs. By the time of their exile, the Dark Elves were a sovereign nation, at open war with their oppressors. So the Dark Elves were more inclined and better positioned to make those sorts of statements. So that is where, and why, the similarities really end.

[Kefka]

The Warhammer world draws many similarities from the real world, but I am sure they are not meant to "parallel" in any particular way. There are similarities to certain geographical features, and some of the races resemble certain parts of certain cultures, but nothing is solid, and everything is different enough.
Take 40k for an example. (and please mods, as a Christian I mean no offense to anyone by this post) The Emperor draws many resemblances to God as do the astartes his followers and desciples. Horus betraying the Emperor and greatly weakening his power, men turn to evil, etc.
Okay, so Emperor = God, Horus = Satan
BUT WAIT!
google Horus Heresy. I bet there is a lot more on Egyptian history then there is anything biblical, and there are SO MANY other factors, like trying to fit the Primarchs into all their biblical roles, down to guardsmen, being, well, guardsmen. There are similarities, ideas "taken from" history or religion, but ultimately, they are NOT the same, only a few keypoints.

So that was probably the most blatant similarity GW has ever produces in their material, and it has more gray area then black and white. So while I am sure Naggaroth is geographically North America (though with its super cold temperatures,I would say Canada more specifically) The Druchii themselves share little in common with colonial slavers.
If they did, you would also be missing:
-Dark Elves finding many indigenous races and nearly killing them off
-Dark Elves creating huge civil war among themselves, effectively splitting into 2 sides
- Democracy!

[Rork]

I think you have to look at it like this:

The Warhammer World's geography is analogous to the geography of Earth.

Most of the races are based in "Europe", so to speak - The Old World. Having the Dark Elves move in there would just be awkward at best.

So what do you do? Send them the other way.

Or look at it another way - Just because Italy is the same place as the centre of Ancient Rome, doesn't mean they're still a bunch of hedonistic, animal-sacrificing Imperialists.

(Except when it comes to tailoring and ice cream )

[Calisson]

Quotes and comments.
There are similarities to geographical features. Obviously. This helps especially to imagine a colourful and realistic universe in Warhammer Fantasy Role Playing game.
However, it is based on a FANTASY European world, where all the popular beliefs come true (strange animals...). This is the aspect I like best here.
The Atlantide was a belief in old times. However, contrary to Medieval fantasy Europe, there is a New World and trans"Atlantic" journeys are common. With this capacity for world sea travel, the WH world can better be situated in early Renaissance times.

The undead pirates of Sortora, the greedy hunt for lust in Lustria by the DoW leader Marco Colombo furthermore emphasises the choice of the time in History: around 1500 AD.

Now, let’s review how similar are the WHFB races to the late medieval imaginary world.
First of all, note that most monsters are taken from the authentic old lores.
The most blatant exception are probably the Orks, who were a creation of Tolkien, but nowadays are authentically part of our familiar fantasy medieval world.


The Empire, = Holy Roman Empire. Industry and German references all over. Teutonic Knightly orders. The importance of the steam, however, is very strange.

Kislev = Russia obviously; Cossacks = Slaves.

Norse marauders are obviously Vikings while the rest ofChaos and the realm of chaos is pure modern fantasy.

Brettonians = Late Medieval France, with French names for cities and characters. Inspiration from the Round Table, which is an early medieval tale (with roots far more older) in a late medieval society.

DoW /Tilea = Italian states. Pavise Crossbowmen and pikemen. That is like the definition of medieval and Renaissance Italy. Estalia= Spain, but it is not developed.

Lizardmen = Aztecs/ Incas. The similarities in weapon choices are obvious.
I'd say the society is much more Inca than Aztec, while the weaponry is rather Aztec.
The Ancients may be a reference to extraterrestrial hints that can be seen in several places (such as the Eastern island).

Khemri Tomb Kings reference to ancient Egypt.

Kingdoms of "Araby" and "Nippon" don't even try to conceal their similarity to real-world cultures.
Same for Cathay (old name for China) and Ind (French for India).

Surprisingly, nobody mentioned so far Ogres = Mongols. The analogy is not concealed the least, and the shaman culture is well integrated.

VC are Transsylvanians, the homeland of Dracula the Vampire.

I like the analogy aboutDwarves = the last Christian bastions fighting hordes from the East, namely Austria, Hungary, Serbia... However, the technology inclination of Dwarves is a little bit odd.

The O&G are a horde-army; Orcs homeland’s position makes one think of the hordes of the East (Ottomans, Timurids, Mongols). Well understood, the analogy is nice.
However, Night Goblins show feathers and other accessories linking them to North American Indian tribes, surprisingly as their “homeland” has nothing to do with North America.

Beastmen represent the savage European tribes, Barbarians raiding out of forests and being viewed by others as being untameable and ferocious, like early Germans in Roman times, or Scots (better than O&G, IMO).

Skaven "a characterful, black parody of mankind and ultimately embody everything that is wrong with humanity, only more so" (from the 7th Ed Armybook Intro) could be representants of the counter-culture of rogues in medieval cities. Think about “Notre-Dame de Paris” depiction of the thieves’ underground world.

Wood Elves = legendary Irish (tattoos, Lore) rather than Robin Hood.

High Elves = Atlantideans geographically. Their culture, however, has not much to do with anything I can identify in Medieval Europe. As mentioned, its really a LotR-thing.
Their culture and clothing should be from ancient Greece from which the Atlantide dwellers were supposed to come from, although it makes me think more about the Antique kingdoms of Middle-East: Asyrian, Persian and the like. Truly, nobody knows what the culture of Atlantide was!
Some political aspects like the independence between each of the kingdom, and the fact that they are exiled former inhabitants of the Old World, gives feelings like the early 13 British colonies which became later the USA.

druchii are very closely related to HE, it is one of the factions in a civil war among these States. The most relevant point of allegory between Naggaroth and the US would be that both societies were originally built by political and religious exiles, but IMO it applies to HE as well. Are the DE like the Southerners, with the KKK in power? No. Naggaroth with its super cold temperatures is geographically Canada, around the Bay of Hudson. There have never been much slavery around there, however. Nor dinosaurs, chariots or dragons either, nor witch elf hag. The culture prevailing there in late medieval times is represented by Night Goblins, not by DE.
Indeed, DE share some characteristics of a stylised version of imperial Rome (megalomaniac ruler, slavery, treachery, assassins, poison etc). Ancient Rome, a mix of its golden age and fall into decadence.
There are bits of lore from India, as well. The cult of Khaine has possibly something to do with the cult of Kali, , where there is the assassin sect of Thugs. This is furthermore emphasized by the aspect given to Hekarti, the goddess with many faces and many arms, typically an Indian goddess.
As HE are supposed to be imagined after Ancient Greeks, DE could well represent some of them as well. Remember, in Athens, the democrats were a tiny minority and there were more slaves than free men. The society in Sparta was not really democratic, too. Actually anything and its contrary was to be found in Ancient Greece.

The issue with this thread was a concern about slavery.
DE slavery is very specific. Contrary to pre-civil war America (and Western Indies), where slaves were like engines for crop growing, and had a real value, DE are evil and like to make slaves suffer.


Conclusion:
For HE and DE, the most important feature is that there are part of the same culture, of Ancient Greek inspiration, and that they are in the course of a civil war.
The analogy with white America can be made because of political aspects, such as the Civil War and the Exile from Old World. However, this is too late in real-world History to be a source of inspiration to WHFB.


Slavery is not the only disturbing aspect in the DE. What about Khainite murderers? Seems worse to me. Also, the search for power, the intrigues, the permanent iron rule of Malekith who is a lover of his mother, there are many disturbing aspects in DE. Fortunately, these aspects are not the mark of the US society!
Also, you should consider that, contrary to Skaven and not-that-long-ago real world humans, DE don’t enslave other DE. Kind of what you do with dogs: another species, that you tame for your use.

Even if it is a game, it can be understood that some players like the fluff of their army to be on the “good” side. Or, if not, at least they like to mitigate the “bad” aspects.
So do I, with a fluff more concerned with a corsair society, with a broader sense of teamwork than what is said in the rest of the DE society, and with hardly any Khainite, which murder instincts I just cannot share. OK, there remains the slavery rule. Well, that’s just booty! Corsairs are not likely to make slaves suffer, or at least not too much, as they need to remain in good state for being sold.

[Slortor]

I would suggest that by the middle ages you could probably make a case that the Dwarves are a mix of the Byzantine and Ottoman empires - as one directly took over the other....

That would to some extent explain the technology - the Ottomans were the most scientifically developed empire in Europe/the Near East for much of the period between 600 and 1700CE.

[Auere]

Thanks for putting it all together Calisson! I agree about the irish/WE - actually why not wales? I mean Wales has beautiful nature with forest and the welsh actually invented the longbow.

As for Dark Elves...
The repeating crossbow is kind of a DE trademark - which furthermore confuses everything, since it was a chinese invention. Go figure...

Dark Elves are just alot of RPG Drow mixed with Ancient Rome society and weaponry from ancient greece and china - with monsters on top of that! Its a bit of a mixup. Nice imagination - perhaps that is why DE are so popular! They are really completely their own.

[Auere]

AHAA!

I just stumbled upon something important about the Wood Elves.

It is indeed the welsh.

- Reknown and practically invented the longbow

- warrior tatoos and pale skin, fragile but agile and fast. Complete lack of armor.

- renegade culture in "harmony" with nature. Neither good nor bad but very territorial.

- pagan gods connected to forest all over. One of them being the White Fairy, Ishara. Seems familiar to you? That is because Isha is a Wood Elf goddess :-)

The king author movie kind of gives this picture of the welsh - the rest of it I looked up at wikipedia.

[Calisson]

Ancient Welsh and ancient Irish share the same, Celtic culture.
Welsh culture is known with the "Mabinogi", while Irish culture has been written by monks when they settled in after St Patrick, and they wrote many more tales: the book of conquests, with the "Tuatha Dê Danann" or heroic stories like the hero "Cûchulainn" or the tribe "Fiana". I mentioned the Irish culture as it is by fare the best preserved, but it was Celtish indeed.

In stories like the cycle of the Round Table, they share the same inheritage as Little Britanny (the present Bretagne), Cornwall and Scotland.

Tatoos were apreciated by all of them and the all had deep forests.

[Desmodeus]

Orcs are Scots and Beastmen are Gauls? Not even close! Barley a connection exists, barring being warlike and primitive compared to their contempories... Unless the new BoC book changes the lore drastically at any rate!

The elves appear to be based mostly on lore (by that I mean mostly Tolkein) rather than history, though some celtic influences seem to creep in more than once (again though, Tolkein)...