The Druchii are based on which civilization?

[Calisson]

There have been very educated discussions about Druchii's sources of inspiration in the thread:
The Druchii are based on Colonial American Slavers?
As a summary, there have been quoted sources of inspiration for our beloved Druchii in the following civilizations or litterature
(in cyan, the polled ones, in brown, the lesser influence ones, not polled).


- Rome,Late Republican/Early Imperial Romans, a mix of its golden age and fall into decadence. Nero and his mum, megalomaniac ruler, slavery, treachery, assassins, poison etc. However, out of high politics, the rest of the Roman society was not like Druchii society, nor the clothes, nor the war habits.

- Ancient Persia: God-king, Autocratic top down society.
Not included for poll because not that much different from Rome, and less known. Also, it was a highly pluriethnic society, unlike DE.

- Sparta: Ensalvement and crazy killing of Helots plus the martial character and ruthless outlook. A great society of warriors which a very few could match. Ruthless warriors which crush their everyone that stands up to them.. Sparta (martial society, no economy to speak of really except war, with 'slaves' to do the toiling while the populous pursues warcraft)
However, the Spartans lacked an empire and ambition. The upper classes are decedent, spartan has come to meen sparce and without luxury. The Druchii raid for and immport slaves, the Spartan's helots were bound to the land and native, and finaly Sparta was never a naval power, while the navy seems to be the Druchii's strongest military arm.

- Aztecs have been mentioned because of the search for slaves to be sacrificed. However, note that this fate was considered an honour in the Aztec society. As all other cultural traits were different, the link with Druchii's slaves and Khaine's sacrifices is too light to consider this a strong contender and I don't include this option in the poll.

- India. The Cult of Love belongs typically to India rather to any western culture. The cult of Khaine has something to do with the cult of Kali, and there used to be the assassin sect of Thugs. Some Druchii gods look Hindu: see the physical description given to Anath Raema, p.58, the sister of Khaine which has the habit to wear skulls on her belt, making one think about Kali; also, p.59, Hekarti, a goddess with many faces and many arms, is herself typically an Indian goddess. Politically, there have been Moghols leaders ruthlessly taking control of most of the Empire, during which conquests they made pyramids of skulls from whole city populations. The caste system has links with Druchii's nobility not mengling with lesser populations, or pure Khainites not accepting impure people among them. Also, the lack of commiseration for the poor dying on the streets is appealing. And did I mention the alphabet with some similarities?
Now, there are also many differences, Indians never raided anybody, had no slaves, are very religious people, are not selfish, invented peaceful resistance and profound philosophies...

- Barbaresque Moor Pirates With their constant piracy raiding, slave taking and general ill behaviour, a mix of refined civilization and ruthlessness against their preys. Barbaresque or Barbary mauresque states were located in present North Africa, and their piracy was a pain during the whole Middle Ages.

- Vikings. Sure, Chaos Marauders are based on Vikings as well, but fluff wise the Druchii are a better match.
Vikings lived in the most isolated parts of the known world and generally kept to themselves, except when embarking on their yearly raids. These raids were designed to bring home slaves and wealth, sound familiar? The idea of setting out from home to raid anyone and everyone around them draws the biggest parallel to the Druchii.
Also Viking society was organized around a caste system, Nobility, freemen and slaves. One notable difference between this and the Druchii was that Viking slaves were not specifically set aside for slaughter; although they could be killed off at any time.
Finally, Vikings were not the stereotypical savage brutes, but were also craftsmen.

- China has been mentioned for the repeater crossbow and that's about it. I don't consider that a major source of inspiration, so it is not in the poll. Same for Japan, which ninjas may have inspired the star assassin, but that's it.

- British->American colonies: In addition to Naggaroth being located in the equivalent of North America, this Colonial American Slavers society has been caricatured as extreme self-centerdness and commitment to personal gain above all else, violence, arrogance, slavery, a big Civil War, and breaking off from a larger island nation to go start their own country. In the previous AB, the Druchii are said to have massacred the local, uncivilized tribes when they arrived. The location however is more the equivalent of Canada. However, most D.netters didn't support that description of early America.

- Nazi in more modern times: elven race, week shall die so the strong shall prevail, eradicate, enslave, have some hi-tech.


Now, if we move away from historic civilizations into litterature:

- Snorri Sturluson's (1179–1241) døkkàlfar (first mention of Dark Elves in litterature). As there was no description of DE, it cannot claim to be a source of inspiration. I won't include it in the poll.

- You can think about other legends such as the Tuatha De Danann, from Irish legends. see wikipedia.
They arrived by ship to invade the island of Ireland. They were masters of combat and magic. They were no humans, although not unlike humans.

- Tolkien's Silmarillion Elves

- Melbinonéans re-named and shoved onto a convenient landmass, take a root through the Stuff of Legends archive and read the relevant novels of Elric of Melniboné

- Gary Gygax's D&D with its Drows, the dark skinned evil race of Elves living under the Earth.



Which one inspired most GW designers when they designed the druchii society? Please post your opinion!
If you feel that several sources must be taken, please expand here below.

OK, you may have noticed I tilted a little bit the poll in favour of India, and that is my answer as well.

DISCLAIMER: be cautious that there are many clichés which are blatant caricatures, and it is these caricatures which are compared to Druchii, not the real people who lived actually. No offense is meant to anyone.

[Venkh]

I went for Drow. Citadel made Drow models for D&D and I think the Dark Elf background was created so that they could be used in Warhammer games.
They werent Druchii then, just Dark Elves. Most of the established canon came later but at the point of introduction they were the Warhammer version of Drow.

The background has evolved since and the influences are myriad but the core influence was the Drow.

[Arquinsiel]

http://solegends.com/citec/index.htm

All I need to say really.

[Eccelex]

I can't think about anything but nazis when it comes to druchii because of their cruelty.

[Layne]

In creating Dark Elf society, they've pretty well kifed liberally from everyone except for me. I kife from them, and I enjoy it. I fully appreciate their point of view. I rather don't think they've tried to make the Dark Elves so much like Americans. They hardly resemble them, it's just that in their "parallel universe" the parallel to North America was the only place left for them. Which is, in turn, in my opinion, the only similarity between Dark Elves and Americans.

They live where they do because they were not welcome where they were. That's the main reason why people went to America, still go to America and probably shall for some time yet. The Dark Elves all went at the same time, for pretty much the same reason, and there is where they start to differ. After that I'm afraid they differ pretty wildly. I should expect, for instance, that Dark Elves have a huge people trafficking industry, but don't consider it a problem [outside of logistic difficulties] yet would have an immigration rate of exactly zero.

Back to the original point ; I wouldn't say that any of the options given were a greater or lesser influence, because then you have to go into in what detail did they all kife from each other, or from the same sources as each other?

[Sulla]

The reason why GW elves (all 3 flavours) are so enticing to me is that GW haven't based them simply on one source, but have strongly blended many sources and added their own original background to them too. They are all far more than the sum of their parts.

[Masked jackal]

What Sulla said, pretty much. Dark Elves are a blender of many different sources, and I don't think one could ever be identified as a primary source.

[Red...]

I think you've missed many other potential sources too, including quite a lot of fantasy lore.

The Druchii's enjoyment of causing pain and cruelty I think goes beyond any of the sources listed (except maybe the Nazis, but that's a whole different and probably quite emotional debate and lets not go there). Similarly, their love of beauty (even killing is an art form for the executioners) and devotion (e.g. the witches) goes beyond any classical or historical civilisation imo.

Interesting Q though...

[Rork]

I don't think you can pinpoint one source entirely (though some may be stronger influences than others).

They start from a point of a people being evil for the sake of being evil, and draw in aspects of raiding/piratical/imperial civilisations.

So it's likely to be all of the above. A hint of colonial slavery mixed with assorted historical civilisations are merely the seasoning and salad to the Evil Elf concept formed and borrowed by GW to make the Dark Elf meal itself.

[Cold one night]

I would like o point out the Druchii similarity to Scandinavian Vikings.
I know that Chaos Marauders are probably based on Vikings as well, but fluff wise the Druchii are a better match.
Vikings lived in the most isolated parts of the known world and generally kept to themselves, except when embarking on their yearly raids.
These raids were designed to bring home slaves and wealth, sound familiar?
Also Viking society was organized around a caste system, Nobility, freemen and slaves. One notable difference between this and the Druchii was that Viking slaves were not specifically set aside for slaughter; although they could be killed off at any time.
Finally, recent forays into Viking history have shown that Vikings were not the stereotypical savage brutes portrayed in film and lore, but were also craftsmen.

Of all the above, the idea of setting out from home to raid anyone and everyone around them draws the biggest parallel to the Druchii.

[Vonkrieglitz]

The way I see it Dark Elves are made up of a conglomeration of the following, specifically meant to contrast High Elves, who I see as a mix of Ancient Athenian Greeks, Late Republican/Early Imperial Romans, and generic Elven fantasy/mythology.

So Dark Elves:
- Sparta (martial society, no economy to speak of really except war, with 'slaves' to do the toiling while the populous pursues warcraft)
- Ancient Persia: God-king, Autocratic top down society
- Rome at it's decline to decadence
- 'The East' in the sense of a conglomerate of Chinese, Japanese, Middle Eastern and Indian influences (no offense meant here, i'm using the term in the art sense)
- Generic elven/drow fantasy and the fantasy version of an evil society

so in a nutshell, there really is no 'one' source in my opinion

[Arquinsiel]

The Druchii's enjoyment of causing pain and cruelty I think goes beyond any of the sources listed (except maybe the Nazis, but that's a whole different and probably quite emotional debate and lets not go there). Similarly, their love of beauty (even killing is an art form for the executioners) and devotion (e.g. the witches) goes beyond any classical or historical civilisation imo.

You *really* have to read Elric. You are going to love Doctor Jest.

[Venkh]

All I need to say really.

I agree a little. However there legions of dark elf models that came our before and after these that look entirely different. The modern DE look doesnt appear till 6th edition and I dont think Mr Fitz took inspiration from those models. Those mounted Meniboneans could have been the inspiration for the Dragon Princes.

Ulthuan = Melnibone in so many respects its practically a lift. The inhabitants took on many of the trappings but worship Law rather than Chaos.

I like the idea of the Druchii being Melniboneans myself but GW always protray the Druchii as being more martial, less civilised and far crazier than Moorcocks invention.

[Sulla]

You *really* have to read Elric.

Agreed. There's a group of daemon-dabbling cruelty lovers if ever there were...

[Arquinsiel]

I agree a little. However there legions of dark elf models that came our before and after these that look entirely different. The modern DE look doesnt appear till 6th edition and I dont think Mr Fitz took inspiration from those models. Those mounted Meniboneans could have been the inspiration for the Dragon Princes.

Ulthuan = Melnibone in so many respects its practically a lift. The inhabitants took on many of the trappings but worship Law rather than Chaos.

I like the idea of the Druchii being Melniboneans myself but GW always protray the Druchii as being more martial, less civilised and far crazier than Moorcocks invention.

That's why I make the case that the Melniboneans are the root of both High and Dark elves at the same time. They once were a martial society conquering the world but lately they just can't be arsed getting out of bed.

[Excidium666]

I'm going with Sparta.

A great society of warriors which a very few could match. Ruthless warriors which crush their everyone that stands up to them.

[Drainial]

And alike in almost no other way. The upper classes are decedent, spartan has come to meen sparce and without luxury. The Druchii raid for and immport slaves, the Spartan's helots were bound to the land and native, and finaly Sparta was never a naval power, while the navy seems to be the Druchii's strongest military arm.

[Krupp]

I voted for the nazis (wow that sounds wierd..) Their society is similar in the fact that they are constantly plotting and subverting each other and both are ruled by a powerhungry maniac. They take what they want and burn the rest, work people to death and live decadent lives while others starve to death.

[Archon_matt]

Malekith prior to his burning by Teclis was *a lot* like Hitler. He did a lot of the rage-killing and rage-invading, and a lot of his failures came about because he is such an angry l'il Elf

[Drainial]

Malekith was burned by the flames millenia before Teclis' birth and all of the invasions of Ulthuan apear to have been planned for decades in advance, particulaly the one during/following the war of the beared. I cannot think of a time when Malekith invaded anywhere because he was angry. He invaded places out of a feeling of being cheated of his birth right, for power and for advantage and thought that he would succeed in some cases because of is aragance but I cannot think of any real evidence for blind rage driving his decisions.

[Hauclir]

Just wanted to point out another plug for the Roman comparison wrt the cult of pleasure. It sounds to me a lot like the bacchic cult of the late republic. It's got some similarities in terms of sexual abandon and substance abuse and it was also criminalized and (some would say) brutally pursued while paradoxically surviving, even growing - especially in the upper class.

I think that a late republican and imperial Rome/pre-Islam Persia/Drow conglomeration is probably the foundation, with snippets from other civilizations tossed in. I included Nazi germany at first, but really Nazi germany was so similar to late republican/imperial Rome that i don't think it needs to be cited as a separate inspiration.

[Maldor]

I think there's a heavy Sparta vs Athens vibe to the Dark/High Elf storyline. That said, there are plenty of other flavors mixed in there. Personally, I view the Druchii as heavily exemplifying the masterly races Nietzsche talks about in his writings: the Hellenistic Greeks, the Romans, the feudal Japanese, basically any culture with a highly stratified nobility, love of war and conquest, little to no regard to that which one considers beneath oneself, etc.

[Dread_knight666]

I have always found a morbid link between dark elves and nazi germany, especially after reading the malus dark blade series. It's little known that the nazi did or atleast experimented with making things out of the dead jews, like soap, lampshades, book bindings, etc.. and when I read about dwarf hide clothing in malus it really reminded me of this.

DE also beleive every race but them are merley animals made to be used and then disposed of without remorse. Nazi germany utilized their slaves in a similar fashion and although their entire society was not founded on slavery, their war effort relied on it.

Even the nazi style of warfare blitzkreig(I beleive translates to lightning warfare) was a swift overwhelming assault, not unlike how DE are played or written about.

Even the relation between DE and their brothers the HE reminds of germans turning on their own country men in an attempt to exterminate them.

[Maldor]

There are plenty of people throughout history who made household items out of the dead. Ed Ghein for example, was a serial killer who made furniture from the skin and bones of his victims (Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs is loosely based on Ed).

Also, Blitzkreig refers to, like you said a swift overwhelming assault, but unlike DE is not a raiding tactic (i.e. not strike and fall back) but was used to quickly conquer and capture territory before enemy troops could respond. This was done through a combination of the Germans' high mobility tanks, the Luftwaffe, and their state-of-the-art use of radio to control troop movements over greater distances than previously possible. I'd say that that style is more similar to Chaos Knights and Daemonic Calvary than DE.

[Timz]

None of the above.

DE are "evil." They are the "bad guys"

This does not make them specifically culturally similar to any of the above-mentioned.

Nazis? Really? Nazis are nothing like Dark Elves... they're not even a medieval group. Dictators are not something that has to do with Germany, there have been cruel dictators in at least a third of the countries in the world.

You'd have to show me evidence to suggest that Nazis love torturing people any more than ANYONE likes to inflict pain on people. Read the aggressiveness of fellow americans on anonymous forums or websites.

"Evil" like enjoying being ruthless to enemies and killing them is a basic part of human psychology.

The soldiers in Iraq aren't vastly different than the nazi soldiers who were in France. They're humans.

So yes, Dark Elves resemble the dark aspects of human nature because they're generic bad guys. How any of the choices on the list matter, I can't see.