Why are Executioners bad?

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights

Why are Executioners not used as much?

Poll ended at Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:36 pm

Low armour
5
12%
Not enough attacks
3
7%
Stirking Last
7
16%
Better options
16
37%
A mix of more then one (please explain the combo)
12
28%
 
Total votes: 43

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Red...
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Post by Red... »

Dread banner is the easiest way


40 point banner to cause fear is awful. It also requires you to put a BSB in the unit AND not give it the standard of HG.

death magic also gives you this option


You shouldn't rely on magic for a unit to survive.

if you loose a combat with with elves who have greatweapons you are doing something wrong


Easy to say. But games don't always go to plan. The best general prepares for times when your unit doesn't manage to achieve optimal positioning.

Yes, it's always nice to envisage playing a game where your executioners get a rear charge on the enemy while your chariot charges the front and your cold one knights go in via the flank, but to assume that this (or other less exaggerated sequences) will always happen is not a good idea.

For example, lets say your unit of execs is in combat with a unit of chaos knights. You win the combat. He runs away and you charge him down (as you have to, due to hatred) but fail to catch him. However, your flank is now in charge range of his chaos trolls. Next turn he charges you, survives your attacks (S6 vs T4, followed by an armour save and regen saves), then slaughters you en masse. You're stubborn but, oh dear, he causes fear. So off you go.
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Red -- You are putting the Executioners in a no-win situation. Any Dark Elf unit except for Black Guard would be in very serious trouble if charged in the flank by Chaos Trolls. And even the Black Guard could really only hope to hold -- they would have no real shot at winning that combat.

That being said, in the situation you describe, you have the unit of Executioners beating a unit of Chaos Knights. I think it is worth noting that Executioners are one of the few Dark Elf untis that would have a reasonable chance of accomplishing that first step in the equation.
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Post by Dalamar »

eglard wrote:Actually Exes can cause fear without Tullaris. Dread banner is the easiest way,


And also most expensive being at least...
155 points and that's no upgrades aside from BSB upgrade and the banner.
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Post by Stonecutter »

I love executioners but hate metal models :D They are fantastic support units and I have tried them as "detachments" in the 6-8 size range and they work extremely well even without a CoB. If you want to field a larger unit with an ASF, frenzied BSB but are worried about the BSB being baited out, just remember that the UNIT gets to declare charges first. Once they do this, the frenzied BSB has to go with the unit. The unit might still get flanked with this approach but at least it will retain ASF and have a BSB. The most common baiting of the BSB I have seen is done early in games with flyers or fast cav who flee so that the BSB can then be shot to ribbons. Declaring a charge with the unit prevents this and who knows, you might get lucky and run them down :lol:
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Post by Eglard »

My point was that there are other ways except Tullaris to get them to cause fear. I don't think they need it. Immunity to psychology would be nice though.
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Post by Fleshcollector »

Executioners are my favorite unit in the list and am only dissapointed by their weakness to fear.

However, as already stated there are ways to mitigate fear and my favorite is the Banner of Cold Blood for a mere 15 points. It certainly is not the be all end all but is a mitigation plan.

I find that fear, while a pain in the rear, only is crucial occasionally which the BoCB is there to mitigate, and all things considering that you know your list and how deploy units as a first measure of mitigation against fear.

The large block of executioners 6x3 with the BSB BoHG, is simply devastating and would be jacked if immune to psychology like Black Guard or causing fear itself for a mere pittance. Play the unit until your good with it and you will know that executioners do not suck by any stretch of the imagination, and could be the no brainer choice that Black Guard are with more easily obtained fear immunity or ItP.

I do think that executioners should automatically cause fear and be ItP based on their religious experience but to do so would make them unfair in their current incarnation at the points they are and the options available.

The fact that Tullaris causes fear is truly awesome and worth his cost considering the aforementioned synergy although I am in the camp that his weak wound-count of one largely disqualifies him from competitive play, but nevertheless is overlooked in the face of his own suceptability to death. Can't blame folk there, as I consider it more worthwhile to add a Chariot before Tullaris, but is it worth it? Yes, especially if other mitigation means are used to protect him.

In the end a unit costing 249pts with a 200pt BSB. while a huge investment, and which incidentally brings synergy to many other components, can easily earn back its points against any army when one knows his army and how to play executioners.

Before I started bringing the BoCB my executioners (18) were lost only a few time and only in times due to fear or terror. Those incidents have not occurred since bringing the BoCB. Coincidence? I don't think so.
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Post by Dalamar »

Executioners will lose to zombies.
How bad is that?
They might win the first round of combat. But after that they strike *after* zombies, will lose 1 or 2 executioners, maybe kill 4 back (no more hatred) lose to outnumber and excessive amount of ranks and run to being outnumbered by fear causing enemy (and Banner of Cold Blood won't help here in the slightest).

I stopped using executioners after in the same game they failed a charge by 0.5" (CoKs would be there turn earlier and easily be in range) and then losing *one* model to screaming skull catapult, failing Ld by 1 and running away (CoKs would pass being Ld9). Not to mention that if they happened to be in charge range in the first place they'd still have to take fear test.

In the end - striking last as elves is *bad*. Execs *have* to charge and break the enemy in the same turn, otherwise they're toast. Maybe not instantly but they *will* lose protracted combats (even to zombies).

And scenario with Chaos Knights is pretty unrealistic.
The knights will be the ones charging, winning the combat, and running the executioners down due to fear-outnumber rule.
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Post by Fleshcollector »

I think loosing to zombies would not happen. Just use your hand weapon :D If it is more advantageous to not strike last then don't. Strength 4 attacks on them zombies should keep you in the lead.

Besides, using an assassin, the BSB and/or fear mitigation, deploy mitigation, movement, magic, shooting and imagination should mean that Executioners can do exactly what you design them and deploy them to do. They ain't blackguard, Knights, witches or even harpies. They got their niche and are loads of fun to make work.

And not playing them because of a failed charge by .5" isn't their fault. If they aren't in charge range then don't charge ;)

For me Executioners are superior to other units for their challenge and the results experienced by crushing the enemy with infantry.

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Post by Saori_nightstar »

I dont tend to play with them much as they are exspencive for what they are. Black guards seem to be a better option to play with as they are both more practical and have more options.
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Post by Desmodeus »

They really aren't bad... but they compete with your heavy cavalry and your scouts for Special choices. I would happily take them on any occasion I had 3 or 4 Special choices. (1 Shade unit, 1 or 2 CoK units and then the Executioners.)
I'd also think about taking them any other time as well.
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Post by Bounce »

Executioners are clearly better with a Cauldron but is it worth the 200 points of investment?

I feel to make Exec's viable for your army you have to sort of build the rest of the army around them. With so little armour they just die far too easily especially as they are forced to strike last in subsequent rounds of combat.
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

I habve a lot of experience running executioners, and in the games I've played, I've foudn that striking last in subsequent isn't that big of a deal.

First off, I do use the Cauldron, which is a HUGE boost to the Execs as others have noted. But what it comes down to is that if Executioners are taking a charge, you are probably doing something wrong. And if Executioners do end up in protracted combat, giving them +1 attack from the Cauldron normally more than makes up for the fact that they are striking second. I've butchered units like (unbreakable) Grave Guard in protracted combat by giving my Execs +1 attack. Sure, a couple of them die, but then the remainign models hit back with 2 strength 6 attacks each. pretty nasty.
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Post by Calisson »

Demetrius the Betrayer wrote:Callison- I will volunteer to make a DRAICH article on Executioners if you like.
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Post by Demetrius »

Sweet as. Will get onto it once I have some spare time XD
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Post by Minsc »

Executioners on their own are pretty bad.

Executioners with the support from a Cauldron are however really really good.

If you have a Cauldron in your list, you should use a unit of Exec's if you know how to use them, but if you don't have a Cauldron, then there are better options.
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Post by Babnik »

Also, executionners have no unit size limit.
18 (6x3 ranks) or even 24 exec with war banner, assassin (rune of khaine and manbane), a draich master and of course the COB behind is an awesome unit if you want to move away from the over-used Black Guards w ASF banner option.
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Post by Dalamar »

24 execs with Dread Banner, Assassin, Draich Master and of course the CoB are also way too expensive compared to their expected results.
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Post by Haareth »

Executioners are bad:
-Low Armour
-Little attacks value
-Draichs always breaking off!
Executioners are good:
-Killing blow
-High attack strength
-Stylish models

I think they are good hard-hitting unit, but you must use 'em carefully.
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Post by Drek »

3/4 of the armies in this game would love to have Execs as an option, especially with all the goodies we can give them. Though they are not as good as BG or COK, they are still a very good choice.
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Post by Babnik »

Other thing about exec, thanks to their handweapon, they can adapt themselves to the kind of opponent they are facing.
In case, they fight core humans/green skins/gors/rats units with AS of 4 or 5, their S4 and I5 enable them to have good chance without using their draich. I know it is not fluff at all but who cares?
To conclude, they are great specials unit but suffer from BG and COK options when you only have 3 specials slots.
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Post by Desmodeus »

Babnik wrote:WE NEED AN OFFICIAL LIST OF KHAINE!

Damn right! Bar taking Hellebron and skipping on the Rare choices, we don't have the option of a fully Khainite list...
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Post by Red... »

Red -- You are putting the Executioners in a no-win situation. Any Dark Elf unit except for Black Guard would be in very serious trouble if charged in the flank by Chaos Trolls. And even the Black Guard could really only hope to hold -- they would have no real shot at winning that combat.


Yes, point ceded, I was exaggerating for effect. I think my point was that with specialist troops like execs its easy to say "if they don't work then you are playing them wrong" and ignore the fact - to quote that tired old saying - "the first casualty of battle is the plan". For me, truly excellent troops have the ability to do well, even when things go pear shaped, but execs are tailored only really for the good.


The fact that Tullaris causes fear is truly awesome and worth his cost considering the aforementioned synergy although I am in the camp that his weak wound-count of one largely disqualifies him from competitive play, but nevertheless is overlooked in the face of his own suceptability to death. Can't blame folk there, as I consider it more worthwhile to add a Chariot before Tullaris, but is it worth it? Yes, especially if other mitigation means are used to protect him.


Fleshcollector: I'd be really interested to hear more about your experiences of using him in battle :) I'm always tempted by him, but have not yet dipped my toe in that water.


Other thing about exec, thanks to their handweapon, they can adapt themselves to the kind of opponent they are facing.
In case, they fight core humans/green skins/gors/rats units with AS of 4 or 5, their S4 and I5 enable them to have good chance without using their draich. I know it is not fluff at all but who cares?


It's actually a very good point that I had never considered. Thank you for the novel suggestion :) As you say, generally not very useful, but it could be very occasionally good against a tarpit unit who has T3 or less and low-no armour saves.
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Post by Mazrim taim »

eglard wrote: if you loose a combat with with elves who have greatweapons you are doing something wrong. :twisted:


i disagree with that generalization. While their chances of hitting and wounding are very high, elves with great weapons strike last unless charging(BoCtaOE). this is more of a problem for elves than almost any other race with their low toughness, almost non-existant armor, and high points cost. Obviously this can be rectified, but doing so requires a large point investment. The problem as I see it is that, while Execs have the potential to be extremely powerful, they are almost helpless without support from a CoB, assassins, or the SoHG.
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Post by Drek »

If your Execs get charged then you ARE doing something wrong.
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Post by Fleshcollector »

Unless you have the Banner of Hag Graef and then things are certainly going right 8)
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