How do you kill Tyrion?

Non sence1 · Post by **Non sence1** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:19 pm

I play aginst a high elf player alot and in our next game he is planning on bringing Tyrion to the battle. I was looking at his stats and everything and the guy is unkillable. So i was wondering is there any way me, being a dark elf player, can kill him?

Noble korhedron · Post by **Noble korhedron** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:07 pm

Before I give you any advice, I would like to know what Tryion can do? I have no HE book at hand, so please give a summary of his abilites/profile?

Cananatra · Post by **Cananatra** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:49 pm

@ noble Korhedron:Magic S7 attacks, lots of armour/wards/regen.

He tends not to dish out too much hurt on rank and file due to low levels of attack, though he will carve most characters up.

Usualy I find its best to just break whatever units he's in and run it down. Killing him is like going after our pendent + regen lord. Possible, but a waste of time.

Vulcan · Post by **Vulcan** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:41 pm

Throw your own unkillable lord up against him and let the two duke it out all game. Then slaughter everything else he has and come back and crush him. (Easier said than done, I know...)

Post by **Dalamar** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:13 pm

So what's stopping an assassin with Touch of Death and Rune of Khaine from killing him?

5-7 KB attacks should take care of Tyrion? (what's his WS? 8 or higher? so I can count averages, and is his ward 3+ or different?)

Desert icon · Post by **Desert icon** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:27 am

What's stopping that Assassin? The fact that Tyrion has WS10, I10, and 4 ASF Flaming attacks at S7... not to mention that any Killing Blows caused will have to get past that annoying 4+ ward save.

That's assuming that the Assassin gets to go first; you'll have to roll off to see who gets to attack first.

Anything with the Pendant should really help, but good luck getting through that Regen, ward save, and 0+ armor that Tyrion's lugging around. I echo Cananatra, kill the unit he's with, and run him down. Tyrion's probably the most difficult character to kill in the game.

Bies · Post by **Bies** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:34 am

Your best bet is to pin him with an infantry block and flank with a hydra or dragon, cold ones etc. (NOT in touch with tyrion preferably) and just break the unit and run Tyrion down.

characters going up against him will die.

That said usually Tyrion is the weaker of the twins. Come screaming for help when you play Teclis cause that's an annoying character (every helf list I know plays him).

Demetrius · Post by **Demetrius** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:51 am

WS10 I10 with ASF... my god. Thats a joke.

Get your Pendant BSB in there and that should hold him up long enough to get a supporting flank charge.

Mazrim taim · Post by **Mazrim taim** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:20 am

Tyrion has a 0+ Armor save, a 4+ ward save, and regeneration. The rulebook states that his mount increases Tyrion's unit strength to two, which may or may not give Tyrion a total US of 3 for being mounted, depended on how this rule is interpreted. Tyrion's armor makes him immune to flame and all breath weapons, so Tyrion will always get his regen save. Tyrions four ASF attacks, in addition to being S7, are flaming attacks, so no regeneration saves for our unkillable lord. He also has M10 and a S4 breath weapon (one use only)

Post by **Calisson** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:56 pm

Seems to be a job for Malekith himself!

Senluthan · Post by **Senluthan** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:06 pm

Calisson wrote:Seems to be a job for Malekith himself!

He would be slaughtered! ...
Tyrion ASF will take 2 of Malekiths 3 wounds before Malekith gets a chance to hit him.. (1,85 when mounted on CO or COC)
Next Malektith makes 2 hit (making 1 magic item disappear) then he makes 1,66 (with T3) wound which gives 0,27 wounds not saved before ward and reg.. making it 0,069 wounds when malekith is either on CO or Black Dragon if mounted on COC 0,55 making 0,138 wounds per round

Black Dragon will make 0,17 unsaved wound..
Which makes the highest wound 0,243 pr round Malekith and his black dragon..

Total slaughter of our Witch King! ...

Post by **Calisson** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:22 pm

I did not do the stats.
But...
1 magic item disappearing before the dragon hits, that may change the odds! I had this in mind.

Also, Malekith is a sorcerer. Many things can be done by a Level 4 with Dark Lore on a dragon flying around (who said Malekith would stupidly charge frontally?), before the combat starts or even during the combat:
Black Horror, Soul Stealer, Word of Pain would be excellent. Even Blade wind is not a magic missile and would work.
The two other spells would work only before the combat starts.

Well, that may be not enough (I'm not doing the stats), and uses a lot of pts...

In the meantime, a rain of shooting may be enough: what are the stats for 90 RXB at long range?
45 hits, 23 wounds, 4 unsaved, 1 wound.
Not even working if he stays inside a unit.

OK, let's try something else.
5 x 5 harpies.
Every turn, you position 1 unit of 5 harpies at 1" in front of the worrisome warrior. He can only charge harpies, which obligely will flee, in the direction YOU set up. He can only pursue in the same direction.
6 turns later, that is an expensive character made useless by 275 pts of harpies, some of them destroyed, some of them rallied...

Senluthan · Post by **Senluthan** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:43 pm

of course there are other things than just the charge from a lvl 4 sorc.. but i wouldn't count on him not getring in close combat from a hero with as long movement as fly! ... and he wont be able to make a single unsaved wound.. statistically..

and of course a magic item disappearing is quite nice especially if it means some of all his saves is going down.. but total of 3 rounds with full store from soul stealer... I see it as to much of a gamble.. but the same is it with other characters.. hmm

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:37 pm

Most unkillable characters are best killed via combat res

If he's on his own, I'd suggest using a massed block of infantry, led by an unkillable dreadlord (pendant of khaeleth plus armour of eternal servitude) to challenge him (both will survive pretty much undamaged) and then win the day through combat resolution. If he's with a I5 unit (all high elf units except for dragon princes or phoenix guard), then put your dreadlord in with a unit of ASF Black Guard supported by a cauldron of blood: you should win for sure. If he is leading a unit of I6 elves (dragon princes or phoenix guard, do the same, but just pray you roll higher on the roll off for which unit strikes first!)

Camaris · Post by **Camaris** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:05 pm

All the times I saw Tyrion take the field, he was leading an I6 unit of dragon princes. After all, it does make sense to give your cavalry character the best cavalry bodyguard available. As others have suggested, I just deal with the guy by having a bunch of DR/harpies lead him around the table by doing flee charge responses, while I slaughter the rest of the HE army.

Desert icon · Post by **Desert icon** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:44 pm

Red... wrote:I'd suggest using a massed block of infantry, led by an unkillable dreadlord (pendant of khaeleth plus armour of eternal servitude)

Armor of Eternal Servitude is a waste of points against Tyrion, mainly because Tyrion's attacks are flaming. Armor of Darkness or the Enchanted Shield would work much better and be cheaper. Really armor isn't your best bet against Tyrion, it's the Pendant. I think the answer to "how do you kill Tyrion" should be "you don't kill Tyrion, you survive him."

Here's something you could try if you really, desperately wanted to kill Tyrion. Grab a unit, any unit, and throw 3 or 4 Assassins in there (yes, I know you can only hide 1 Assassin per unit, but that doesn't stop you from moving them in afterwards). Make sure they all line up with Tyrion when he inevitably charges you. Refuse the challenge he may/may not issue, and have him send 1 Assassin to the back. Now he's stuck with 2-3 Assassins in front of him and only 4 lowly attacks to work with. Odds are you might just take him down with enough Killing blows.

Now, back to my sanity, the Pendant is the only way to reliably deal with him (Harpy redirection is great, but they die to a light breeze or start to flee if a Gnoblar looks at them funny). I'll bet you those Pendant naysayers aren't saying too many nays now!

Babnik · Post by **Babnik** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:41 pm

Killing Tyrion is the same story as killing a treeman... Almost impossible for us to get rid of them. So try to "glue" this annoying abomination into a close combat against a very tough or stubborn unit.

Noble korhedron · Post by **Noble korhedron** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:43 pm

Babnik wrote:Killing Tyrion is the same story as killing a treeman... Almost impossible for us to get rid of them. So try to "glue" this annoying abomination into a close combat against a very tough or stubborn unit.

Seems like a waste of your 0-1, Rare choice, Banner of Hag Graef BLack Guard!!

Desert Icon wrote:
Noble Korhedron wrote:Seems like a waste of your 0-1, Rare choice, Banner of Hag Graef BLack Guard!!

Black Guards aren't 0-1 Rare choices anymore... they're Special choices now and the 0-1 has been removed.

D'OH!! *slaps forehead*

Desert icon · Post by **Desert icon** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:53 pm

Noble Korhedron wrote:Seems like a waste of your 0-1, Rare choice, Banner of Hag Graef BLack Guard!!

Black Guards aren't 0-1 Rare choices anymore... they're Special choices now and the 0-1 has been removed.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:16 pm

Armor of Eternal Servitude is a waste of points against Tyrion, mainly because Tyrion's attacks are flaming. Armor of Darkness or the Enchanted Shield would work much better and be cheaper. Really armor isn't your best bet against Tyrion, it's the Pendant. I think the answer to "how do you kill Tyrion" should be "you don't kill Tyrion, you survive him."

Ah yes, forgot about that, but the general point remains: (pendant + AoD or Enchanted Shield as you say).

Grab a unit, any unit, and throw 3 or 4 Assassins in there

Thats actually amusingly close to the fluff: Tyrion is hunted down and brought to the point of death by four assassins sent by Malekith to kill him. He slays all four, but the final assassin manages to call out for help, letting Malekith know where he is, after which he unleashes the Daemon Nkari to track him down

I'll bet you those Pendant naysayers aren't saying too many nays now!

As someone who is a general Pendant naysayer

I'd have to respond that I do think the Pendant is broken, BUT its fair game against other broken units or characters (e.g. Tyrion!).

Cananatra · Post by **Cananatra** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:56 pm

Seriously people, stop trying to take him head on.
I usualy see him in a unit of dragon princes, just hit his unit with a can opener. He cant generate much ACR, all he's good at it not dieing and lopping lords heads off. A block of spears with a master lade of ruin is going to cause him headaches, even more so if you flank in.

Lastly, if he challenges with tyrion. accept with a champion and use your character to dice tyrions unit.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:19 pm

A block of spears with a master lade of ruin is going to cause him headaches, even more so if you flank in.

Why would that unit work against a unit of dragon princes? His unit will strike first, allowing him to either kill the master or slice up enough ACR (WS5 S6 + horses is nasty) that you lose combat (S3 spears vs heavy cavalry armour saves = little impact, your master with three attacks can kill three max if he's lucky... You would need ASF Blackguard, and even then its a dice off over who goes first...

Getting a flank charge with a unit of spearmen vs a unit of heavy cavalry (charge 10" versus charge 14") would be quite a challenge (not undoable, but scarcely an easy manoeuvre...)

Minsc · Post by **Minsc** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:15 pm

Tyrion is more of a anvil with hammer-capabilities than an actuall Hammer, so I suggest either swamp/redirect/block him (and his unit, wich usually is some dragon princes.) or pitch him against your own tank:

Dreadlord /w Pendant, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Ruin, Cold One, Seadragon Cloak, Heavy Armour.

Tyrion got 4 attacks, 2,66 hits, 2,22 wounds, 1,11 after AS, 0,18 after pendant.
Dreadlord got 4 attacks (more with CoB), 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 after ward, 0,5 after regen.
So the Dreadlord is more likely to kill Tyrion before Tyrion kills him.

The Dreadlord also costs more than 100 pts less, and if you put him in a unit of Black Guard, they will probably kill Tyrions units faster than his unit kills yours.

Cananatra · Post by **Cananatra** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:10 am

Red... wrote:
Getting a flank charge with a unit of spearmen vs a unit of heavy cavalry (charge 10" versus charge 14") would be quite a challenge (not undoable, but scarcely an easy manoeuvre...)

Well you can just have them sitting beside and behind another unit to get a flank charge off. As for the master not being effective? Against elite heavy cav that master is great. 3 kills isnt much on a 20 strong unit, thats another matter entirely on a 5-6 strong unit.

I've played against tyrion more times then i care to count. Going toe to toe with him in characters is a waste of effort, you'll be tied up there all match. You might wear him down with our unkillable, you might get a lucky KB through. However his unit wont be much more difficult to break then any other unit in the HE army. Just break him and run him down.

Non sence1 · Post by **Non sence1** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:09 am

Thanks for your help everyone. Sorry it took me so long to get in on the conversation. I couldn't log into my account for some reason. Anyway, i got to thinking, if i could beat him in combat and outnumber him with a fear causeing unit like COK. Then he has to roll double ones to not flee. So bring a caldron and the ASF banner on COK. Giving them all the extra attck with the caldron. With the unkillable lord in there, hopefully winning combat and making him flee.