A way to kill hellpits.

[Geist]

So after some fooling around and in general being very silly, I have found a way that will kill a hellpit every time with out fail.
First the theroy.
Black Guard with Asf and assassin with d3 and manbane.

For test 1 we have Bsb and Dread lord. Lord has Exe Axe and Bsb has soulrender. Unit is 16 strong.

Test one Results are hellpit dies 3 times, survives 3 times. This is full combat with goal being hellpit reduced to zero wounds. Test was repeated once. This gives us 12 samples. AKA 2 batches of 6 combats rolled. This will hold true for each one.

For test 2 we have bsb and dread lord. Lord has exe Axe and bsb has soulrender. Unit is 16 strong and blessed with +1 attack from cauldron.

Test two Results are hellpit dies 6 times in batch one and 4 times in batch two. This gives us a net of 10 out 12 batches that hellpit is dead.

Test three we have bsb dread lord and a master. Lord has exe axe, master has soulrender and bsb has great weapon and hyrda banner. Unit is 15 strong and blessed with +1 attack from cauldron.

Test three Results are hellpit dies 6 times in each test. This gives us a net of 12 out of 12 hellpit is reduced to zero wounds.

This is the only way I can find to 100% with out fail kill a hellpit. Everything hits on 3+ rerollable, 1 model wounds on 2+ everyone else wounds on 3+. It saves on 4+. 36 sample batches to support what I am saying.

Wrap up notes and thoughts.
Yes this is very silly, yes that makes the blackguard cost way too much. Does it work? Yes is it truly worth it? More than likely NO. I might try it in a silly game. Discuss.

[Minsc]

Soft it up with Lore of Fire (wich also prevents it from ressurecting itself), and RBT's.

Finnish it of with a Hydra/CoK's/BG/Witch Elves(!)/Executioners, all pref. buffed with +1 A From cauldron and it should go down.
Executioners Axe should work pretty well, but it's quite situational.

[Bounce]

I can't see why your opponent would let your Black Guard unit get anywhere near the Hellpit abomination. Not too mention it shouldn't be surprising if you kill it your new super unit is surely much more expensive.

[Ehakir]

Shoot the rats that stand around it and make it take a panic test preferable with doom&darkness cast upon it

[Bitterman]

I can't see why your opponent would let your Black Guard unit get anywhere near the Hellpit abomination. Not too mention it shouldn't be surprising if you kill it your new super unit is surely much more expensive.

Quite so. I suspect 40 RBTs would kill it quite quickly, but it's hardly a reasonable investment of the points.

[Marauder mitch2]

Or smile when you don't see double doomwheels. I played the hell pit once and i was using kings, and the chariot king killed it on the charge, and the other time impacts did nothing and popped him eventally.

I see the abomination is a bit like a hydra, but it only has the regen so massed hits will make it fail its save, also with its random movement and no ranged attacks it is easier to deal with.

[Sulla]

I see the abomination is a bit like a hydra, but it only has the regen so massed hits will make it fail its save, also with its random movement and no ranged attacks it is easier to deal with.

Only vs certain armies. Vs manouver armies, the hellpit is a massive threat. You generally have nothing that can take a charge from it, nothing that can defeat it before return attacks (which are more than capable of wiping out a unit of knights) and with 360LoS and an average charge range of 10+" a hellpit ancoring a flank creates a massive exclusion zone.

The combat rules make it a tough opponent, but the manouver rules are what make it truly ferocious vs certain styles of army.

[Rabidnid]

Only vs certain armies. Vs manouver armies, the hellpit is a massive threat. You generally have nothing that can take a charge from it, nothing that can defeat it before return attacks (which are more than capable of wiping out a unit of knights) and with 360LoS and an average charge range of 10+" a hellpit ancoring a flank creates a massive exclusion zone.

The combat rules make it a tough opponent, but the manouver rules are what make it truly ferocious vs certain styles of army.

Maneuver armies are limited anyway. They might do well against mortal Chaos or Vampires, but will fall on their face versus a balanced army with mobility and shooting/magic missiles.

[Tethlis]

Only vs certain armies. Vs manouver armies, the hellpit is a massive threat. You generally have nothing that can take a charge from it, nothing that can defeat it before return attacks (which are more than capable of wiping out a unit of knights) and with 360LoS and an average charge range of 10+" a hellpit ancoring a flank creates a massive exclusion zone.

The combat rules make it a tough opponent, but the manouver rules are what make it truly ferocious vs certain styles of army.

Truth. Combine this with the Stormbanner and it can be very hard to deal with. It's actually the main reason I've started including Manbane/Rending Star assassins in my tournament Dark Elf list; it's just too hard to deal with any other way, and causes way too much damage. Half a dozen Shades with Assassin are usually capable of bringing it down, even with Stormbanner in affect. Even if the HPA charges the Assassin/Shades, the stand and shoot is deadly and the Shades can soak up impact hits while the Assassin goes to work with ASF/Manbane.

When going after the HPA, I try to position some Dark Riders/Harpies near the combat to help block off the zone where the HPA could potentially come back to life. I've seen the HPA come back to life on several occassions (last month, it happened twice in one game, and my Assassin actually ended up killing the same HPA three times in three turns) and it's worth taking extra steps to prevent that from happening.

[Marauder mitch2]

The Hellpit is basically a weaker hydra with 360 random charge. Also if it chases after units like shades and Riders/ harpies you can rpedict roughly where they will go.

DE shooting is vicious vs skaven and the only problem i had was with storm banner and warpgale in affect. Warpgale is the thing i fear most as i h ave a dick about and shoot army.

The main problem is the random movement as you could roll average or you could roll below or above which acn leave the abom isolated.

[Tethlis]

The Hellpit is basically a weaker hydra with 360 random charge. Also if it chases after units like shades and Riders/ harpies you can rpedict roughly where they will go.

Weaker in what sense? It has more wounds and the possibility of coming back to life, and every attack mode it has does automatic Strength 6 hits, plus impact hits, plus usually some additional damage/utility feature (either -1 to hit the HPA with return attacks, D3 wounds, or simply 2D6 or 3D6 more Strength 6 auto-hits/attacks.)

The thing is crazy good, and while random movement can hurt it, it's far more of a help than a hindrance. You can't hide out of line-of-sight of it, which is terrifying.

[Minsc]

The Hellpit is basically a weaker hydra with 360 random charge

Allow me to laugh *haha*, there. You just lost all credibility.

Also QFT on Tethlis. The HPA is crazy good, and would eat a Hydra for dinner.

[Tethlis]

Also QFT on Tethlis. The HPA is crazy good, and would eat a Hydra for dinner.

I've lost Hydras and dragon lords on full wounds to the HPA, and I'm not talking about fluke rolling either. It's really not that farfetched for the HPA to blast through these units in one round of combat, or at least break them with a huge number of wounds inflicted. The Hydra can sometimes tank the HPA for more than one turn if you do well with Regen and it rolls average for impact hits and attack mode.

I've seen two plans develop, based on whether the HPA moves well or not.

All-out attack: pretty straightforward. If the HPA rolls well for movement, it dashes forward under the cover of stormbanner and eats whatever it touches.

Backfield lurker: This is really nasty versus Dark Elves, because it's easy for Skaven to manipulate us to due to Hatred overrun/pursue moves. If the HPA falls behind the rest of the skaven lines due to poor movement, the Skaven player can bring targets straight to the HPA. The Skaven send some fodder into one of our important units, lose deliberately, flee, and have the HPA just waiting on standby to obliterate the overrunning Dark Elves with a countercharge. This isn't hard for a skaven player to do, we don't have a great counter to it, and it can be done all across a Skaven battleline since the HPA can charge wherever it feels like.

[Marauder mitch2]

Sorry, but everytime i played i have never had trouble with it. It is the doomwheel that i have problems with. Maybe it is just the UK but doomwheels are a lot more scary.

Why isn't it a hydra with 360 LOS, its got 1 more wound with no armour save, the movement is random. Yes it has those crazy attacks but it is also large and enough shots can kill it, let alone any DE magic based army would hurt it with fire magic. You should at least get 1 round maybe 2 to shoot it i as it lacks places to hide only behind the furnace or wheel.

Sorry if i lost creditiablity but as i said i have never had problems with it.

Oh i forgot, my list has rending stars/manbane and lots of shooting so myabe as i have the tools inbuilt thats why i find it easier.

My main way of thinking about killing it is ranged attacks and MM's. Sorry if i said something wrong.

[Tethlis]

You didn't do anything wrong, some players just have a different perspective than you. I think the point is that the HPA represents a pretty different threat than the Hydra because its killing power is significantly greater and its movement is far more versatile.

Also, a decent Skaven player will always upgrade their HPA with Magic Resistance (1) and Magical Attacks and keep it protected with the Storm Banner, meaning that you're always going to be at -1 when shooting at it (Large Target softens that penalty a bit) and it's got a bit more magic defense for shrugging off incoming spells. I agree with you that Manbane/Rending Star Assassins are undoubtedly the best way to deal with them. For every game I've had where I've shot an HPA down without concern, I've had a game where it shrugs off all the missile fire I direct at it and rampages through my army.

Last night, I spectated a game of VC versus Skaven. The Skaven player was getting horribly massacred, until the HPA managed to collide with a 6-strong Cairn Wraith unit with Banshee, wipe it out in one round of combat, score a huge overrun into 5 Blood Knights with Vamp character, wipe them out too, overran into the Vamp Count general's unit and killed the BSB with Drakenhoff Banner before the game ended. In two combats, the HPA utterly massacred two of the most overpowered combat units in the game and (very nearly) turned the Skaven Massacre into a minor victory. That wasn't even lucky dice either, the HPA actually rolled below average in each combat.

[L1qw1d]

Test three we have bsb dread lord and a master. Lord has exe axe, master has soulrender and bsb has great weapon and hyrda banner. Unit is 15 strong and blessed with +1 attack from cauldron.

I'm confused. I thought only the Death Hags could score extra stuff from Khaine, and if you had a BSB, you couldn't get additional magic toys?

[No one]

1: every unit can receive a blessing from the cauldron of blood
2: BSB can take magical items as normal, unless he has a magical banner (and in this example there is a 3rd master who carries soulrender, the BSB has the hydra banner and mundane gear)

[L1qw1d]

I was noting the Exe Axe

[Ant]

Exe's axe is a normal magic item, not a Gift of Khaine. You're thinking of the venom sword (and that can only be given to an assassin, not a death hag).

[Killerk]

last weekend, I faced 2 of these, on a Local Tournament.

I used a shooty army, and shot one of them even with the storm banner in effect.

if you put enough shot's at it, you'll eventually roll enough 6's to kill the thing.

I made a battle report, about preparing for a GT.

[Ebonyphoenix]

Pit of shades should work. If it fails it's I test, no more model. Plus since it's removed from the game it shouldn't be able to stand back up since it never was a casualty. Bonus!

Only problem is making the pit work on the rest of their army. Stupid high Initiative rats... (and yes, i see the irony of an elf complaining about I values)

[Tethlis]

For the HPA coming back to life, there are a few ways to combat this. If you break and run it down, it can't come back (though breaking Stubborn 8 isn't a guarantee.) Also, if you are able surround and block out the area in which it does, you can also prevent it coming back to life. If there isn't enough room to redeploy the HPA without it coming into contact with an enemy model, it stays dead.

[Dalamar]

Just wound it with a fireball. Once. It won't get up.

[Tethlis]

Just wound it with a fireball. Once. It won't get up.

Not every Dark Elf list has a decent caster using Lore of Fire, but ever Dark Elf list does have the potential to run down an HPA or block off its ability to come back to life.

[L1qw1d]

"If there isn't enough room to redeploy the HPA without it coming into contact with an enemy model, it stays dead."

thats for just one full (your side and theirs) round tho, correct? that was how it ran in the one I watched.