Witch Elves in 8th ed

[Destruction2]

What do you think witch elves will be like in 8th ed:
Better, worse or about the same as 7th ed, post your opinions

[Rabidnid]

What do you think witch elves will be like in 8th ed:
Better, worse or about the same as 7th ed, post your opinions

Big blocks of witches might not be a good idea. A block of 30 will get 50 poison attacks, but 40 spears will be cheaper and get 40 attacks anyway. Their total lack of saves is their main problem. My plan is to use them as sacrificial bait units 12 wide to cut up a horde we have to take the charge of but don't have a spear core block to deal with, and to flank core blocks with a rank to nullify rank and file bonusues, and to apply mass numbers of attacks without having to take mass numbers of attacks back. Their loads of attacks, high int and ItP make them a good candidate for taking knight charges when buffed with KB from a CoB.

[Bies]

TBH

I'm thinking, having read the book and played a SINGLE game that 1 or 2 big blocks of spearelves will be good and then MSU things like witchelves and black guard.

Idea being the spearelves can pin the enemy in place and then units of 10-14 "combat" troops with high DPS value such as poison/attacks/strength can hit the flanks and cause the damage to kill units.

Like a block of 30-40 spear elves and then 14-15-18 executioners (either in 7x2 or 5x3 or 6x3) to break enemy rank and get the kills (cause lets face it our spear elves will still be str3).

I'm thinking more and more 8th is about combined operations and large regulars with small "elite" units is an idea I really want to try out.

[Bra55monkey]

Personally im gonna use the 5x6 girls unit. with a hero with the minus BS item with the 5+ ward from the culdren. use losre of shadows to hopfully buff my girls with the Ultimate spell and smack people around with 15 s7 attacks at I 6

[Emperorpenguin]

You cannot give any magic items to a Death Hag and you cannot join a Witch Elf with a non-Khainite hero

[Maldor]

New spells like glittering robe will help keeps our girls alive longer.

[Olderplayer]

Casting at 9+ just to give a 5+ armour save is not worth it to save them. You're better off giving them a 5+ ward save to try to save them and keep them close to the COB to keep them stubborn. Otherwise, leave the WE's at home. They just won't hold up in large units. You will now have to pick your lores in advance. Your best lores generally in 8th ed are likely to be fire and our own magic, but metal is good if you know you'll be facing something line warriors of chaos in a single game. Unfortunately, the common lores that got boosted the most are the four (beast and life) are the four not available to our casters.

[Bies]

Casting at 9+ just to give a 5+ armour save is not worth it to save them. You're better off giving them a 5+ ward save to try to save them and keep them close to the COB to keep them stubborn. Otherwise, leave the WE's at home. They just won't hold up in large units. You will now have to pick your lores in advance. Your best lores generally in 8th ed are likely to be fire and our own magic, but metal is good if you know you'll be facing something line warriors of chaos in a single game. Unfortunately, the common lores that got boosted the most are the four (beast and life) are the four not available to our casters.

Not entirely true with magic.

Metal now has no str value, your AS = str. So LA+Shield 5+ AS = str2 hits. So you're looking at against regular armies (orks, empire, elves) 1/3 casualties per spell.

Up against knights of any type, dwarves, warriors etc. you're looking at some serious high strength wounds.

Fire is good, death to me is too particular with many spells being single character/target only not unit wide.

Shadow IMO can be good.

You cast signature shadow to reduce d3I from a unit and then Pit of Shades. Can hurt those large I blocks!

[Masterofdarkness]

I think that as long as they hit the enemy in the flanks they will be fine. They can not take all those attacks to the front. Also now that we can take 3 of each choice MSU will work again for those elite units. Thinking maybe 2 by 5-7

[Bies]

Not sure MSU will work how you envision.

Fact is you're going to suffer some wounds back units of 5-7 are unlikely to last a single round (unless hitting the flank but even then...)

My own thoughts as previously mentioned have smallish units of 10-18 for high DPS value and blocks of 30-40 spearelves as anvils.

[Bounce]

Now that slots are gone I like the idea of Kamikaze Witches. With I6 they will generally get to go first and against horde units can do a massive amount of damage for a small points cost and then let our tougher troops come in to finish them off.

In general though their lack of armour means they are going to struggle as the opponent will generally attack back and kill heaps of them and they usually don't have much static combat resolution either. Spearman look like the better option as they have better armour and due to thee extar ranks will still be getting lots of attacks at high initiative anyway.

One small point, withces should now make excellent monster killers as they can let things like Trolls/Ogres charge them but then strike first with a bucketload of attacks.

[Rabidnid]

Now that slots are gone I like the idea of Kamikaze Witches. With I6 they will generally get to go first and against horde units can do a massive amount of damage for a small points cost and then let our tougher troops come in to finish them off.

In general though their lack of armour means they are going to struggle as the opponent will generally attack back and kill heaps of them and they usually don't have much static combat resolution either. Spearman look like the better option as they have better armour and due to thee extar ranks will still be getting lots of attacks at high initiative anyway.

One small point, withces should now make excellent monster killers as they can let things like Trolls/Ogres charge them but then strike first with a bucketload of attacks.

And even knights with KB from the CoB. I'm currently thinking about 15 with just a muso as a flanker, that can suicide charge horde blocks frontally when if needed.

[Mr. anderson]

But why bother suicide charging into the front of an enemy unit? Better to avoid that sort of situation altogether, no?
All you need to do is front charge the unit with something else and then next turn get the witches into the flank. They'll do much more damage that way. Spearmen and corsairs and RxBmen in a 30strong unit are there to take charges, or chariots to charge in. They're tough enough to survive a couple of S3 attacks back after having caused some major mayhem. With a noble on top, it should hold one turn by itself, especially if said noble is equipped to take out large numbers of lightly armoured opponents.
I'd much rather avoid having to suicide charging anything into something, really... better to not even consider the option so you aren't tempted... suicide charges have a nasty habit of backrifing. If you are in a position where you absolutely have to suicide charge, that is obviously not by choice, thus it will cost you dearly when it fails to be as effective as you hoped.

[Killerk]

IMHO Witches just got a whole lot better.

Their the cheapest unit considering the amount of attack's / unit frontage.

In previous edition's they were rarely used, because
1. they could not go up against knight's,
2. they could be easily led around do to frenzy.
3. if charged the unit was gone.

and know
1. we will be seeing much less knight's on the field. more cheep poorly armored infantry will be fielded.
2. a failed LD check could wreck your day, but since we can redirect a charge.
3. they always strike back (considering the unit is big enough), and with I6 they will most likely go first.

[Rabidnid]

But why bother suicide charging into the front of an enemy unit? Better to avoid that sort of situation altogether, no?

I have no plan to charge anything frontally with them, but there are going to be a lot of hordes around and not everything will be facing a 30 strong spear or RXB block. If I need to present a unit with a threat they can't ignore the girls get the job. If I'm fighting a unit of 50 goblins which the girls take on frontally 12 wide that is 36 attacks, hitting on 3s with poison and re-rolls versus toughness 3 results in 24 wounds, which will kill 20 or so models. 30 surviving goblins hit 15 times and wound 7.5, killing 2/3s of the witches. Witches still win by about 13 retaining their frenzy and the goblins still test to avoid breaking. Assuming the goblins don't break and run I flank charge them in my turn destroying the units.

Its a good use for 125 point unit if a spear or RXB block isn't around.

[C_freman]

Are we sure that witches get to keep their 3 attacks? Looking at the rulebook, both Frenzy and additional hand weapon grant the Extra Attack ability, but there is no mention that the hability can stack.

It worries me, TBH.

[Drek]

The rules have never said what stacks. They only say what does not. So as long as it does not say that they do not stack, you're fine. Just beware of double negatives. They'll make you go crosseyed.

It does seem as if WE just got a whole lot better. But are they as good as Black Guard? I think not. But I think they can be pretty good, probably a better bet than Execs.

[Rabidnid]

The rules have never said what stacks. They only say what does not. So as long as it does not say that they do not stack, you're fine. Just beware of double negatives. They'll make you go crosseyed.

It does seem as if WE just got a whole lot better. But are they as good as Black Guard? I think not. But I think they can be pretty good, probably a better bet than Execs.

Reasonably cheap and loads of attacks, ItP and I-6. I've always thought they were better than BG. If Exes and Witches had access to 50 point banners when the book came out, BG would not be have been considered clearly superior to either.

[Bies]

The exact wording is:

"Unless otherwise noted the effects of multiple special rules are cumulative"

I don't know if that means you can "stack" Extra attack rule or if it means you can be under the influence of 2 special rules such as Hated + Terror.

Both Frenzy and AHW give you the special rule "extra attack"

People at W-E can't seem to decide.

[Fr0]

Now that slots are gone I like the idea of Kamikaze Witches.

Well, you're still limited in terms of how many of that slot can be taken..
That said, they got better because they can now take charges, but are still easy pickins' to shooting. WE will continue to have high volumes of attacks, and will really lay a beating to even large(ish) blocks. That said, I'm looking for a few more WE models.