The FAQs are out - discuss!

[Nomen mendax]

The COB Amendment is ambiguous to the point of uselessness.

Wounds - It's a war machine so (AFAIK) that means that its crew die as it takes wounds (as described in the text). According to the text it should clearly have 4 wounds so I assume that the 3 wounds in the stat line must be a misprint (contrast it with the Anvil of Doom which has 5 wounds which makes sense given its crew).

Attacks for the DH and the hags - It clearly states that the cauldron has 2 attacks for each hag and 3 for the DH with no mention of extra hand weapons. It also states that they "Add +1 to the number of attacks received by each crew model as long as they are Frenzied". It doesn't mention that they have extra hand weapons. But it also doesn't mention that they are frenzied in the amended Special Rules for the cauldron! So the only way you could assume they are frenzied is if you go to the rules for the Hags and the DH, which state that they have extra hand weapons.

Hopefully they will soon update the update ...

[Rkhatzar]

so no changes in magic,
good that all sorcerers have POD regardless lore chosen, but they could made Chillwind signature or, drop Bolt.;/

[Ebonyphoenix]

Due to the BRB, all spells in racial lores that can be "switched for" or are known automatically do not count for the "no multiple of same spell" rule. They are classified as the signature spells of a given lore.

Put another way, Power of Darkness and Chillwind can be known by every mage we bring to the table. The same could be said for High Elves with their Drain Magic and Shield of Saphery. Ditto for Wood Elves Treesinging, Skaven Skitterleap, Skaven Engineers with Warp Lightning, Tzeentch with Flickering Fire. Where it gets interesting is that two Necromancers can buy Vanhel's Dance Macabre for one list and spam it all they want, since the BRB makes a further exception for "purchased" spells.

[Rkhatzar]

Also we can use more dices to cast something like Sun of Xsomething on 25+ from Death lore, don't we?

[Agelmar]

After having re-read the FAQ, I think our mounts do get hatred after all, since Eternal Hatred now affects the "modell", not the "Dark Elf".

But why then remove the "Remember that hatred also applies to mounts as long as their riders are alive"? It makes no sense to remove such a clarification if GW intended DE mounts to have hatred in 8th.

And did CoB just lose it's terror + MR1 + Frenzy + E-hatred?

Before the Dark Elf got hatred, due to rules if the Dark Elf got hatred then the mount also gained their hatred. That changed in 8th so if the rider has hatred the mount no longer gets that hatred. That is why they theorize that the rule was updated to give bouth the mount and the dark elf hatred (through the model), and removed the line referencing a rule that no longer exists (mount gains rides hatred).

[Rkhatzar]

one opinion - Empire mortar - dead horde elves. oh, salamanders ? - dead elves.
Autohitin' is just brainless.

[Ebonyphoenix]

I think the Hatred discussion will be highly confused until we sort out how the Rider+mount fusion works. To add to the confusion, if you look at the new Tactica section for DarkElves on the GW site, it states our riders and mounts both get hatred rerolls.

Once again, go go GW confusion.

[Tethlis]

After having re-read the FAQ, I think our mounts do get hatred after all, since Eternal Hatred now affects the "modell", not the "Dark Elf".

I concur. GW removed the reference to the old 7th edition rulebook entry by deleting the last sentence. That leaves us with the statement that models with the Eternal Hatred rule benefit from it. Cold One Knights, Hydras and Black Dragons are models with the Eternal Hatred rule, and there is no longer an indicator within that rule that mounts would NOT get Eternal Hatred.

[Killerk]

@KillerK: My bad, missed the "add" part.

as if I get every thing right .

as for hatred I would go with Agelmar. Makes the most sense.


Concerning the CoB, we should start complaining on the GW forum, and complain a lot, as to the rules for the CoB, that way there is a chance that they will fix the errata .

[Ebonyphoenix]

Do you happen to have a link to where to contact them?

[Comrade igor]

After having re-read the FAQ, I think our mounts do get hatred after all, since Eternal Hatred now affects the "modell", not the "Dark Elf".

A knight and a cold one is still two separate things, and cold ones don't have eternal hatred in their unit entry so they don't get it.

Hydra does though.

[Greenman]

I think the Hatred discussion will be highly confused until we sort out how the Rider+mount fusion works. To add to the confusion, if you look at the new Tactica section for DarkElves on the GW site, it states our riders and mounts both get hatred rerolls.

Once again, go go GW confusion.

no where in the tactica it says that also the mounts gets hatred.. just the hydra is mentioned to have


btw are we aloud to bypass the 12 PD limit when having used like 6 and refill with power of darkness?

[Greenman]

After having re-read the FAQ, I think our mounts do get hatred after all, since Eternal Hatred now affects the "modell", not the "Dark Elf".

A knight and a cold one is still two separate things, and cold ones don't have eternal hatred in their unit entry so they don't get it.

Hydra does though.

aye the mounts-models would have hatred if the mounts have "eternal hatred" rule in their describtion

[Ebonyphoenix]

I think the Hatred discussion will be highly confused until we sort out how the Rider+mount fusion works. To add to the confusion, if you look at the new Tactica section for DarkElves on the GW site, it states our riders and mounts both get hatred rerolls.

Once again, go go GW confusion.

no where in the tactica it says that also the mounts gets hatred.. just the hydra is mentioned to have


btw are we aloud to bypass the 12 PD limit when having used like 6 and refill with power of darkness?

Regarding the hatred conundrum please read the "Super Combo" paragraph again. The quote name is a link to the tactica too.

Each of the Cold Ones will have 2 Strength 4 Attacks and the Riders (assuming you charged) will have 2 Strength 6 Attacks, all re-rolling missed hits.

Regarding the PoD, nothing says you can't refill your pool by any means. There are just 2 limits to obey, one of which we ignore.
The one we ignore, due to Druchii Sorcery, is the 6 dice cap per spell casting attempt. That includes dice such as magic mushrooms, slann "free" dice, and any similar ability that triggers before or after the initial roll (sacrificial dagger would have counted in this).
The second is that at no point in any magic phase may you have more than 12 dice stored in your Power or Dispel Pool. The rule in the BRB says nothing about number of dice per turn, just a limit on the pool. The pool would include dice for general use as well as unique mage dice, so keep that in mind for our Darkstar Cloak, the Witch King's Iron Circlet, PoD dice, etc.

[C_freman]

I just checked with the rulebook, and I think i can throw some light regarding COB wounds.

For those who already have it, page 108:

A warmachine Wounds are always considered to be equal to the number of remaining models (which is stated in the war machine's entry) - the Wounds value of its profile is included only out of completeness

So, even if it states 3 Wounds in the profile, it won't be removed until the 4th.

Regarding the ROH issues with "casting", throughout the magic section, the rulebook keeps using "casting" to refer both to the caster and the target

Direct damage spells can only be cast on enemy units

Augment spells can even be cast onto units in close combat...

So I guess it's safe to assume that (between this and the german FAQ), ROH works as before, save for the spell going off.

[Tethlis]

Great post by c_freman. I will certainly cite those sources when explaining these changes to opponents.

[Red...]

Concerning the CoB, we should start complaining on the GW forum, and complain a lot, as to the rules for the CoB, that way there is a chance that they will fix the errata .

Concur. Let them errata the errata.

[Timz]

That includes dice such as magic mushrooms, slann "free" dice, and any similar ability that triggers before or after the initial roll (sacrificial dagger would have counted in this).
The second is that at no point in any magic phase may you have more than 12 dice stored in your Power or Dispel Pool. The rule in the BRB says nothing about number of dice per turn, just a limit on the pool. The pool would include dice for general use as well as unique mage dice, so keep that in mind for our Darkstar Cloak, the Witch King's Iron Circlet, PoD dice, etc.

I disagree with this interpretation, even though it would benefit DE.

The 12-power-dice phase doesn't make sense if you allow Power Dice, Slaan rule, special abilities, magic items, and everything which they specifically state don't overwrite the max 12 dice be added.

I think if you get 9 dice and cast 3 spells, taking a "free" dice with each cast, then you can't get any more free dice since you've already generated 12, doesn't matter if you used them or not.

Same thing with PoD, Death lore, etc.

The intention is a hard limiter on OP magic... but if a DE or Lizardmen player (both of which have been told the limit applies) can use 16+ dice in a single magic phase, then it's a completely meaningless rule.


Q. Do the extra dice generated by Power of Darkness count against
the number of dice in the dice pool? (p63)
A. Yes.
Q. Does the ‘free’ power dice gained from Focused Rumination count
against the power limit? (p43)
A. Yes.

Pretty clear to me that PoD and Focused Rumination CANNOT be used to use more than 12 dice for magic.

[Voodoomaster]

That includes dice such as magic mushrooms, slann "free" dice, and any similar ability that triggers before or after the initial roll (sacrificial dagger would have counted in this).
The second is that at no point in any magic phase may you have more than 12 dice stored in your Power or Dispel Pool. The rule in the BRB says nothing about number of dice per turn, just a limit on the pool. The pool would include dice for general use as well as unique mage dice, so keep that in mind for our Darkstar Cloak, the Witch King's Iron Circlet, PoD dice, etc.

I disagree with this interpretation, even though it would benefit DE.

The 12-power-dice phase doesn't make sense if you allow Power Dice, Slaan rule, special abilities, magic items, and everything which they specifically state don't overwrite the max 12 dice be added.

I think if you get 9 dice and cast 3 spells, taking a "free" dice with each cast, then you can't get any more free dice since you've already generated 12, doesn't matter if you used them or not.

Same thing with PoD, Death lore, etc.

The intention is a hard limiter on OP magic... but if a DE or Lizardmen player (both of which have been told the limit applies) can use 16+ dice in a single magic phase, then it's a completely meaningless rule.


Q. Do the extra dice generated by Power of Darkness count against
the number of dice in the dice pool? (p63)
A. Yes.
Q. Does the ‘free’ power dice gained from Focused Rumination count
against the power limit? (p43)
A. Yes.

Pretty clear to me that PoD and Focused Rumination CANNOT be used to use more than 12 dice for magic.

eh??? the limit is that the pool cannot contain more than 12 dice during any stage of the phase as i read it and as how it is intended to play, so if you generate extra dice say from the prime example, the lore of death which for every unsaved wound you roll a dice and on a 5 or a 6 an additional power dice is added to the army pool. so even if you generated 12 dice at the start. Cast a spell using 2 dice and got 3 dice back from the lore of death ability you would gain only 2 dice for you to use again in the pool as you cannot go past 12, the 3rd extra dice would be lost.
we can use as many dice as we have even if extra are generated past 12, more likely that spells are run out of first before dice.

[C_freman]

Yes, the book states that

The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice at any point in the phase - any dice generated beyond this number are lost.

Not only doesn't it mention anything about not being able to add more as long as it doesn't surpasses the limit, but also it would be a really complex way to say that you can't have use than 12 dice instead of, for example, saying that you can't use more than 12 dice in total in any magic phase.

The intention is a hard limiter on OP magic... but if a DE or Lizardmen player (both of which have been told the limit applies) can use 16+ dice in a single magic phase, then it's a completely meaningless rule.


Q. Do the extra dice generated by Power of Darkness count against
the number of dice in the dice pool? (p63)
A. Yes.
Q. Does the ‘free’ power dice gained from Focused Rumination count
against the power limit? (p43)
A. Yes.

Pretty clear to me that PoD and Focused Rumination CANNOT be used to use more than 12 dice for magic.

If this was not so, you could, for instance, have 12 dice in the pool and then cast POD and have up to 15 dice in the pool.

This way, it is clear that you can't get past the limit of 12, even though you can "refil" the used ones.

[Thanee]

Q. Do attacks from Lifetaker count as magical attacks? (p101)
A. Yes.

Thank you, GW!


Hmm... Bladewind... when cast on a single character only generates one hit now?

Q. How are the attacks generated by Hydra's Teeth and Bladewind
allocated? (p100)
A. Roll for the number of attacks and then allocate the ones
you are allowed against characters or champions. Any
remaining attacks are allocated by the attacker against models
in the unit that are not characters or champions.

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

As for the Power of Darkness and Power Pool...

I havn't read the book, yet, but are dice you use to cast a spell removed from the pool? Or do they stay there, just not usable anymore, since you already used them?

If it worked that way, I could see how the hard limit of 12 dice per turn could work out.

Otherwise, I have to agree, that PoD might (currently ) be used to go beyond 12 by using some then refilling the pool, then using some, and so on. It does not seem intended, though, I certainly agree with that as well.

Bye
Thanee

[C_freman]

It says "taken from the magic pool", so I guess they're removed.

Your point was valid, though.

[Bitterman]

The 12 power dice thing is at any one time. So if you start with 9, use two dice to cast PoD, and get 4 back, you've now got 11 in the pool. (Though four can only be used by the sorceress who cast PoD), even though that's 13 in total for the phase.

However - if you had, say, the Darkstar Cloak, and rolled 12 power dice, you'd only have 12 dice in the pool, not 13.

It is kind of a pointless limit though. It really does only stop those occasions where you've got a magic item that gives +1 PD and roll a double 6. Just about every other way of generating extra power dice works around it by the fact you'll never have 12 at one time.

The CoB is a mess. I hadn't realised how bad it was until reading this thread because I assumed lots of things that when you read it, actually can't necessarily be assumed any more. Not least of which is that the update seems to treat it as a war machine, but the Bestiary in the book says it's unique. So can it charge or not??? Not to mention the other valid points people have raised in this thread which confuse things beyond belief. By any rational explanation, the Death Hag and crew would still have Frenzy and Additional Hand Weapons... but that "rational explanation" is not supported by the RAW.

Similar comments for Hatred on mounts. I personally always thought it was silly that a horse gets Hatred just because an angry elf is riding it, so assumed the deletion of "remember mounts get hatred too" removed that rule. But if that's the case, why change "Dark Elf" to "model"? That suggests the rule is very much alive. Hardly clear!

The FAQs are full of other inconsistencies too. The WoC Warshine can't Thunderstomp - OK, fair enough, it's a horse and cart, that makes sense. But the Corpse Cart can Thunderstomp? How? What with? It's a horse and cart - without the horse! And the number of FAQs that completely reverse previous decisions is either hilarious or tragic, I can't decide which.

The book is very explicit about one thing though. Wounds for a war machine are the crew only, and the Wounds characteristic of the machine itself is ignored. Hence (...assuming the CoB is a WM) it doesn't matter that the CoB has 3 wounds - the crew, between them, have 4, and that's what counts. (...except that, again, the update calls it a war machine, and the Bestiary calls it unique, so it's still not actually watertight). This also means our RBTs have only 2 wounds, even though it's 3 on the profile.

[Fuzzydeath]

The entire text of Eternal Hatred, as redefined by our FAQ:

Eternal Hatred: All models with this rule Hate all opposing models (Hatred is explained in the Warhammer rulebook). In addition, such is their detestation of their cousins from Ulthuan that when fighting against a High Elves army, models with this rule reroll missed close combat attacks in every round of combat, not just the first.

What did the faq change?

Cleared up that all models with Eternal Hatred reroll in successive rounds, not just dark elves, and removed a reference to 7th ed rules (that mounts share psychology rules)

That's it. I don't think there's even a flimsiest of a leg to stand on to tell our opponents that this faq says mounts get Eternal Hatred. It even specifically says to reference the (current edition) rulebook for full rules for hatred.

The 'model instead of dark elf' change means things that are not 'dark elves' that have Eternal Hatred still get to use it. Thats what, the Hydra? RAW, until this rewrite the Hydra could have been argued to only enjoy hatred.. as a 'non-dark elf' it could have never been allowed to reroll in successive rounds vs HE prior to this FAQ


Cauldron: I think this is being overanalyzed as well. The Hags and Death Hags aren't said to NOT be used exactly as described elsewhere. So, since you don't change them, you use them as written elsewhere.. Extra Weapon, Frenzy, Poison, Blessings, etc.

War Machine vs Unique: Army Book take precedence. It's a warmachine, with all the rules that come with it.