Monstrous Mounts, Worth It?

[Maldor]

What are everyone's thoughts regarding Monstrous Mounts under 8th?

On the pro side, the new Thunderstomp and breath rules (for the dragon at least) makes them more lethal in combat. Additionally, extending the general's Ld range to 18" is a nice bonus.

On the con side, they no longer negate ranks, terror is toned down, they don't benefit from hatred anymore, and they are unlikely to break enemies because of the stalwart rule, nor will they charge as far as before.

Given these changes, is it worth taking monstrous mounts? Obviously the Dragon has distinct advantages in terms of both survivability and lethality over the Manticore. Should I be looking to trade up from the Manticore to the Dragon, or should Monstrous mounts be left at home altogether?

[Dyvim tvar]

I think a dragon is still worthwhile--hard to kill, deals lots of damage in combat, and breath weapon means death to an infantry unit per game. But with the loss of ability to break ranks and, just as important, the ability of infantry units to fight back with lots of attacks, the Manticore is not worth it's points.

[Dangerous Beans]

@Dyvim; thats why I wish the Manti had Heroic KB... the fluff certainly seems to indicate that anyway...

[Fuzzydeath]

Another drawback to keep in mind is how Large target now works.

although it no longer gives a +1 to hit, just about every penalty for stuff in the way is gone, and with true LOS it's way easier to hit now.

That being said, the thunderstomp IS rather nice. If you successfully manage to hit a flank, even a manticore is going to just tear things up (no supporting attacks to the flanks/rear). Stubborn for a turn, sure, but not for long. Against most units, they'll have lost stalwart after only 2 rounds of combat.

And if you must charge headfirst (perhaps to avoid cannonballs), remember the monster's base is only so wide, and therefore only so many models may strike back.

The advantage of monsters is they pack a huge punch on a tiny frontage.. way more damage put out than you'll see come back. And if your general or BSB is on that monster, there's that much more temptation to direct attacks away from the monster to try to hit the character.

[Dangerous Beans]

Another tip to improve the manticore's use for less price than the Black Dragon: giving the black dragon egg to the chara and use the breath weapon in combat - Manti attacks+chara attacks+auto hit breath attacks...

still - I'm gonna miss my lovely Manticore model as I'm not sure that this is still *that* viable...

- Beanz

[Setomidor]

I just have a feeling that the battlefield will be swarmed with War machines (both Stone Throwers and Cannons), and both will be absolutely lethal even to dragons.

in 7:th ed there was always some terrain that you could hide your Dragon behind, suffer one turn of massive shooting and then get a charge of. Now you are unlikely to hide, and when you DO get hit by a cannon, both the rider AND the Dragon will suffer the hit.

[Masked jackal]

Another tip to improve the manticore's use for less price than the Black Dragon: giving the black dragon egg to the chara and use the breath weapon in combat - Manti attacks+chara attacks+auto hit breath attacks...

still - I'm gonna miss my lovely Manticore model as I'm not sure that this is still *that* viable...

- Beanz

Interesting idea, give the Dragonlord a Dragon Egg himself. 2d6 S4 hits in addition to the Dragons own breath weapon and thunderstomp? Yes, please.

[Vulcan]

Both of them are now best used as cannonfire-bait, and in that role the Manticore is superior because it is cheaper.

I'm dead serious here. Every Empire list I've seen so far has 2-3 cannon and a bunch of other shooting. Dwarf lists look similar. Skaven lists almost always have either Warp-lighning cannon or Doomwheels. Not needing to guess gave a HUGE boost to the weapons... that are the fastest way to deal with our monsterous mounts.

So use them to draw fire for a round or two... if you bother to use them at all.

I won't.

[Tethlis]

Ran a Black Dragon against Skaven in a 2500 point game last night, and was very pleased despite some skepticism. I lost 17 Black Guard to a Doomrocket shot on Turn 1, which punched a huge hole in my line. The dragon and Hydra stepped up to fill the gap in the line, teamed up with my spearmen to charge a 30-strong Stormvermin unit with BSB, who promptly fled because they know they couldn't maintain Steadfast against that kind of hitting power + ranks. I then redirected the dragon and Hydra into a 6-strong Rat Ogre unit with Warlord on Bonebreaker, killed virtually every Rat Ogre despite a bad breath weapon roll and not being able to Thunderstomp, and the 18 inch-Leadership range kept my entire battle line in check the entire game. Through the threat of all that hitting power, I neutralized the opponent's BSB and general in a single turn.

The Dragon not only enhances the effectiveness of your general's Leadership, but still draws missile fire (most of which easily bounces off) and is still good at killings things that your infantry don't want to mess with at all. I will definitely use my Dreadlord to counter medium monsters and elite infantry that will tear apart T3, 5+ armor save Dark Elves. I was very, very pleased with how the unit performed.

[Minsc]

The Dragon is still worthwhile.

The Manticore was fighting a loosing battle in 7th Ed. Now in 8th Ed. it's as good as dead in all but the friendliest/craziest of games.

[Maldor]

Thunderstomp isn't as nice as people seem to believe. It only works against infantry, war beasts, and swarms, but does nothing against cav.

[Masked jackal]

Thunderstomp isn't as nice as people seem to believe. It only works against infantry, war beasts, and swarms, but does nothing against cav.

But cav would be more likely the ones to be charged, and S6 does wonders to remove those juicy armor saves...

[Blunch3]

I think a dragon is still worthwhile--hard to kill, deals lots of damage in combat, and breath weapon means death to an infantry unit per game. But with the loss of ability to break ranks and, just as important, the ability of infantry units to fight back with lots of attacks, the Manticore is not worth it's points.

I'd second this. I actually never thought the manticore was worth it in 7th and I believe that even more so with 8th.

[Masterofdarkness]

Cannons do not really worry me as much. They will get one round of shooting(two if they go first) if you put them in line of sight.

After the dragon is in their lines they are going to have a hard time firing. Look at cannons, if there is a CHANCE that it will hit a unit in combat or a friendly they may not fire. Makes having to place that initial shot a lot harder does it not?

[Keeper of the cauldron]

Wow. Thanks for that info masterofdarkness. I had not heard that about cannons. So if we close quickly enough, we can take them out or wave as we charge something else. Cool.