Is two hydras still "dirty"?

Sturguard · Post by **Sturguard** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:43 pm

Hey folks, as I stated in my previous thread, I am building an 8th edition dark elf army. I never played 7th edition but I lurked in the background reading the forums. I was wondering with all the advantages to taking large cheap infantry blocks, do people regard taking 2 hydras in say 2500 pts as beardy? Cheap infantry seems to have gotten a whole lot better and lets face it, even spearmen are not cheap. I two games this weekend, one with a hydra and one without against huge blocks of goblins. The hydra really seemed to make a big difference in the two games, being able to hold up a unit of gobbos by himself (killing 17) and thus giving me an extra turn to get a flank charge. That game was 1500, I was thinking of adding another hydra to my 2500 pt list as I have another hydra in the box.

Also, any thoughts on how to field a dragon? I have a beautiful dragon model and I really want to get it on the table, however, it seems I am also gravitating to taking a level 3-4 sorceress and there isnt the points to do a sorceress lord and a lord on a dragon.

Thanks for your responses.

R3flexx · Post by **R3flexx** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:52 pm

IMO 2 Hydra's is okay, but the Dragon is overkill for a game against a friend.

It's fine for tournaments and when you tell your friend you're bringing a brutal list to see how well your tournament list works. Other than that, suprise dragon r*** isn't very fun for the other guy.

Babnik · Post by **Babnik** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:02 pm

8th is just released so it will take couple of games to see if double hydras is still cheesy...

Can't break ranks anymore but I just read that flaming strength does not decrease with wounds so this feature is even more powerfull. Even with only attack/game it means this combo still grants a fair possibility to win a game without thinking too much

Sturguard · Post by **Sturguard** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:11 pm

r3flexx, I wasn't thinking of running two hydras plus the dragon, I was thinking more along the lines of 1 hydra and a dragon. Thanks for the responses guys, keep them coming.

Blaqkheart · Post by **Blaqkheart** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:11 am

I wish I had the money for another Hydra, but I still have more of my 8th edition 2500pt list to buy. I think it would be okay. I don't know how other people are, but from what I can tell by most of the people I play with, that bringing a challenging army to the table is acceptable and welcomed.

Irtehdar · Post by **Irtehdar** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:44 am

It really depends on the people you play with. Theres are all sorts of player groups out there. In some groups Ive been part of the most important thing (apart from having fun) was that lists should be balanced while in others the most important thing (again apart from having fun) was to bring out the most abusive cheesy lists you could think of and just have at each other.
In my steady group(people Ive played with for over 10 years) theres some people where I will intentionally fluff up my lists abit and use less of the crueler tactics than against others because with these people I enjoy wackier games (heck I played a 2k DE army against a 2k IG army with my best friend)

Id say try out with your group where the boundaries lies. Take a chat with some of the other people in your group about the hobby in general and find out if they have a problem playing against abusive lists. And if someone at some point hints that they dislike your BG's put them back on the shelve for some time. Apart from that fluffing up your army to give your opponent an advantage also helps you become more skilled. Dont get me wrong I play to win but if I can see in my opponents eyes that s/he is thinking: ''again?'' when I deploy something Ill take it off my standard list. (limiting myself in that way has ironically forced me into a somewhat bizarre playstyle that I like alot and at the same time makes people say Im an interesting opponent)

Evolvingeye · Post by **Evolvingeye** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:21 am

@Babnik Where did you read that the Hydra flaming breath attack strength doesn't decrease with wounds? I can't seem to find it.

Masked jackal · Post by **Masked jackal** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:32 am

evolvingeye wrote:@Babnik Where did you read that the Hydra flaming breath attack strength doesn't decrease with wounds? I can't seem to find it.

I believe that in the part where the rulebook describes close combat breath weapon attacks, it says that they're made at 'the models basic strength'.

Babnik · Post by **Babnik** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:03 am

@ evolvingeye and Maske Jackal
I downloaded the pdf army list update from GW website.
They change the wording for hydra breath attack. Flaming strength remain at 5 even if wounded. On the other hand, we can use it only once...
:cry:

Setomidor · Post by **Setomidor** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:29 am

But our armybook overrides this...

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:30 am

i can find no reference at all in our FAQ-pdf to the hydras breath weapon.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... 10_v11.pdf

where did you read it again?

Timz · Post by **Timz** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:13 am

Babnik wrote:@ evolvingeye and Maske Jackal
I downloaded the pdf army list update from GW website.
They change the wording for hydra breath attack. Flaming strength remain at 5 even if wounded. On the other hand, we can use it only once...

The update says nothing of the sort. It never evens mentions hydra breath.

Post by **Calisson** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:51 am

The FAQ first paragraph does mention to ADD that the hydra breath is now flaming. It does not replace the decreasing strength ruling.

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:46 am

@calisson
where? am i checking the wrong file or something?
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... 10_v11.pdf

Post by **Calisson** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:07 pm

That is another mystery.
The French FAQ says in the first page:
CORRECTIONS
Page 58 – Hydre de Guerre, Souffle Enflammé.
Ajoutez “Il s’agit d’une Attaque Enflammée.”

which I would translate by:
CORRECTIONS
Page 58 - War hydra, Flaming Breath.
Add " it is a Flaming Attack."

But there is nothing alike in the English edition.

Was it that former French-speaking hydras were not sure that their breath weapon was flaming, while English-speaking hydras did not need this FAQ? :roll:

So yes, you're checking the wrong file, as if you wish to use properly the RoH now, you need to speak either French or German!

(that would allow you to make good use of your motto:
The important thing is that by MY standards i won fair and square. )

Sturguard · Post by **Sturguard** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:38 pm

Calisson, what is your thoughts on dual hydra, in a friendly, yet competitive environment, do we "need" them to combat top tier armies? Thanks.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:00 pm

Was it that former French-speaking hydras were not sure that their breath weapon was flaming, while English-speaking hydras did not need this FAQ?

Or perhaps french speaking hydras have a flaming attack whereas the flaming breath of an english speaking hydra is for display purposes only

Post by **Calisson** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:23 pm

Sturguard wrote:Calisson, what is your thoughts on dual hydra, in a friendly, yet competitive environment, do we "need" them to combat top tier armies? Thanks.

Ooops, sorry for being off topic in my previous post.

Hydra are not vital, as far as I understand the logics of 8th edition battle (my experience is as scarce as anyone's).
COC, 5 COK, dragons fill in a somewhat similar role: the tough hard hitter.
They are still very tough for the opponent. But as soon as they find out that they have I2, they will be a target of choice for an I based spell (Death #6, Shadow #5).
More important, as hydra have no rank, any R&F unit remaining with 5 models is steadfast against them, allowing some rescue to arrive. At least they are not anymore able to win singlehandly most melees.
Also, there are many more flaming attacks nowadays:
All Fire Lore (#2 grants flaming attacks to a unit), Metal #0 & 4, Light #1, not forgetting a low cost magic banner.

Irtehdar · Post by **Irtehdar** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:28 pm

evolvingeye wrote:@Babnik Where did you read that the Hydra flaming breath attack strength doesn't decrease with wounds? I can't seem to find it.

The art of derailing a topic...

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:54 pm

@calisson
ah, thanks for clearing that up. personally im very much against translations, since they cause these kinds of missunderstandings. if they ever started to print rules in swedish id just laugh

@topic
i started with 1 hydra and 1 unit of CoK, but after play testing i switched to 2 hydras. first of all im incredibly unlucky with stupid (Ld 10 reroll wasnt enough and a tree-man got the charge on them

) but mostly it is because the hydra can do what the CoK does (hit hard on the charge) but it can also continue to win several rounds of close combat. CoK has a more trouble providing enough dead bodies to reliably keep wining against stuff that is tougher than skaven slaves.

If you play a tournament, you can tell ppl to go suck a bag of d&%¤#, and if you play with friends, just have discussions with them about both your armies. i doubt that "but the guys at the internet thinks its ok!" is a good argument if your opponent thinks 2 hydras are cheating. its all legal, and imo we really need a few hard hitters that we can be a bit reckless with, so that our more fragile troops needs to trike at the precise right moment. the hydra is a baseball bat that you can swing around wildly and hurt ppl with, but other stuff like executioners is like a sharp dagger. more deadly if you strike at the right spot

The virgin forest · Post by **The virgin forest** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:39 pm

Is two hydras still "dirty"?

If you have to ask, then... :lol:

As said by others, it depends on your environment. But if you (ab)use things like this, you invite people to retaliate with other stuff, like dual STanks/doomwheel/flavor of the month.

Warhammer can easily be reduced to a game of penal comparison (and compensation) :shock:

, so do yourself the favor and don't

-

On the other hand, you could just try it out, and see if they really are so dominant that they win you the game, and then remember to apologise to your opponent and vow never to use them again, if they are

Sturguard · Post by **Sturguard** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:21 pm

Honestly, I don't see alot of problems with them myself. As Calisson pointed out, there are plenty of ways to deal with them, and unlike a steam tank that has a 1+ armor save, there are plenty of flaming attacks in the game which deprive the hydra of regeneration- not to mention, plenty of things can wound the hydra on a 3,4,5+ (heck a swordmaster wounds him on a 4+), whereas most things only ever wound the steam tank on a 6+, so I don't think that is a fair comparison. The other things you mentioned I don't know the stats for so it is hard to say.The thing I tried to use the hydra for is to pin big ugly units for a turn, then support them on the next. There is little in the dark elf book that has any survivability (on its own) with the exception of CoK and hydras. CoK are good as well, but after the first turn, they suffer tremendously. Your second point actually answered my question well- the reason I ask is I have another hydra in box and I was thinking of trading/selling it- I think it is better to try a dual hydra here and there before getting rid of it and wishing I hadn't.

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:40 pm

I also think that since we're kinda stronger basic ranged (well, compared to our basic combat) and Specials, to me this is our main "charge and soften" Hammer item. I'm not saying there aren't more Hammers or it's the Best-est ever. I'm saying that it's the Rook when BG would be the Bishop and Exe would be the Knight.

A lot of our Specials play D, and/or strike last so sending 2 hydras in at say 2000 may very well be dirty pool if your composition is solely based on them and then some sort of knife in the back or an armada of BG right behind them, but still- WAY too many ways to take them out.

The virgin forest · Post by **The virgin forest** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:20 pm

Sturguard wrote:I think it is better to try a dual hydra here and there before getting rid of it and wishing I hadn't.

Sure. But just be careful not to start an arms race, as it is surely one you'll lose in the end, as new books come out, and the powercreep goes up a level

Timz · Post by **Timz** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:30 am

Most experienced generals know hydras are too strong for their points cost.

Their S5 autohits flame thrower is extreme. (avg 7 extra hits in combat possibly.)
Their 7 attacks with hatred are extreme.
Their bonus D6 warstomp S5 autohits is extreme.
Their 4+ regeneration ward save is extreme.

That's an average 17 S5 attacks that hit a WS1-3 person and an average 16 S5 hits on anyone WS4-8.
Then add the handlers with multiple armor-piercing attacks too.

The hydra's points cost is massively low.

No, other units like Cold One Knights are NOT even slightly comparable to a hydra. They lack the shooting damage, they lack the T5, they lack the regeneration save, and the extra d6 auto-hits, and the Terror.

A hydra costs the same as 5 knights with command. Which one is more dangerous? The hydra is at least TWICE as dangerous. It's much harder to kill and does more damage.

For all the special ability creep the hydra has gotten, it should probably cost 200-250 points instead of 175, easily. That's not to say every army has some slightly mis-pointed units in it. But other people won't always take 2 Steamtanks to battle.

If you ever do use maximum hydras, just know you've lost the right to ever complain about what anyone brings to any battle. Because you've power-gamed with an unbalanced list yourself.

There's clearly no issue if your friends are powergamers too. They'll have steamtanks and vampire knights and 3 stegadons to counter it. But it's not automatically better to be a gaming group which fields nothing but the most broken cheese units imaginable. Some people like other units and field them, but no one can overly enjoy games where their tactics don't matter as much as your undercosted hydras.