Rant / request for help against HEs
Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:03 pm
Okay, so back in 7th edition it took me a little while to come to terms with the high elves, their ASF, power-dice spamming abilities and nasty archery fire. But I got there in the end, and my tailored army of ASF Blackguard, assassins, hydras and ring of hotek wielding champ would usually come out very well.
Enter 8th edition: same problems, much bigger scale.
Here's the problem:
Always striking first:
Against Dark Elves this is now absurd. Almost all of their units and characters get to strike first AND to re-roll their attacks (unless you're using blackguard to take on spearmen). Effectively they have hatred AND ASF.
That would be something I could deal with: blackguard and cold one knights are more than capable of outboxing high elves, but they won't get across the table because of...
Archery!:
Lothern seaguard are just brutal. Think about big blocks of these guys: they get volley fire, which is just brutal. How many shots does it take a unit of seaguard to make to take out a unit of dark elf infantry? remarkably few. Even cold one knights suffer: roll enough dice and you're going to gets some 1s.
But they ALSO have all the advantages of being high elf spearmen (extra rank for attack, ASF and re-rolls to hit against same I foes).
Oh, and don't forget that repeater bolt thrower spamming, which due to their special rules of "take as many of whatever type of unit you want, you're high elves so whatever" they can do much better than us.
Magic:
Okay, so in 7th ed they had the ability to spam power dice pretty nastily (level 4 and 3 level 2s, buffed by the standard of +D3 magic dice).
But in 8th ed its even worse! Not because they get more boosts, but because power and dispel dice are now in such short supply that their boosts become even nastier. Picture this: he rolls an 4 and a 2 for magic, so he gets 6 dice and you get 4.
Fair enough right? Except its not, because he then reveals his banner of spamming d3 power dice, and a magic item (whose name I forget) that gives him another. So that's an extra 3 average dice. So now he's on 9 and your on 4.
Bad right? But wait, there's more. Now he fields his dragon mage, who gets to add a free dice to his rolls every time he tries to cast a spell: a typical level 2 will try to cast two spells each round, so thats an extra 2 dice. So we're up to 11.
From a basic score of 6 PD and 4 DD, you're now looking at 11 dice versus your 4. And he gets that +4 to +6 PD bonus EVERY turn. Even if he maxes out at 12 dice, he still gets the boost to his rolls for the dragon mage, so in that scenario he gets 14 dice versus your 6. Nasty, just nasty.
But it gets worse still: the spell lists are now much nastier AND ring of hotek has been nerfed (unless you're lucky enough to live in france or germany, which I don't). The only defenses left are dispel scrolls (which you can now take just one of per wizard, as you can't take two arcane items anymore), the feedback scroll (unreliable at best, and 50 points is a lot for a scroll that doesn't actually dispel - and bear in mind he's probably casting with 2 or 3 dice a turn, because he can, so is likely to take a single wound max (and if he has lore of life he can just heal that instantly for getting the spell off...)), staff of sorcery (which is useful, but not enough to change the balance) or the seal of ghrond (same deal).
Hydra killing:
Well, to start with hydras have been made much more killable in 8th ed by the new regen rules. And fire attacks are now much more common. (unit of lothern sea guard with 15 point banner of fire anyone? or perhaps a flaming sword of rhuin cast onto one of his archery units - cast because he has umpteen more power dice than you and there's nothing you can really do about it). So, unlike in 7th ed where you could rely on your hydras getting across the board and being a real pain in the backside for the enemy all game, now you're lucky to keep them alive past turn two.
Oh, and if you do get them into combat, remember that he strikes first and can now attack your handlers with between 2 and 5 models each (depending on his unit formation), with re-rolls to hit, dramatically increasing his chances of killing them (something which was actually quite hard to do in 7th ed). So he kills the beastmasters (+2CR) and does maybe one or two wounds to the hydra with his other 8 to 20 ASF attacks (+1CR). He then gets ranks, his standard and musician. You're quite likely to lose the combat and bam, off you go, because the beastmasterless hydra has a leadership of 6.
And even assuming you survive, if he doesn't break (which is likely, as he'll be steadfast) then his wizard will be sure to get flaming sword of rhuin off onto the unit in combat with your hydra at his next magic phase and bam, dead hydra.
And lots of other bits and pieces too.
So, whats the purpose of this rant? Well, its to ask for any suggestions/tips anyone might have really. I played a game against a high elf opponent recently and lost, although not by much. My issue is less with the loss, but more that I can't identify what I should have done better.
I took a big block of frenzied corsairs with the ring of darkness
Cold one knights with 5+ ward from a cauldron
Block of Cold one knight unit for their armour save
2 hydras (to keep him occupied)
Chariot (for toughness and armour save)
Several units of Reapers and crossbowmen to kill his infantry and shoot down his dragon mage
Some 'sweeper' units to kill his warmachines (master on dark pegasus, dreadlord on a cold one, dark riders, etc).
He had something along the lines of:
5 repeater bolt throwers
30 lothern sea guard
30 lothern sea guard
10 archers
dragon mage
20 phoenix guard
1 chariot
level 4 mage with cloak of nothing non-magical can hurt me, haha.
Cadyran and some other nobles
10 shadow warriors
The game was close - indeed probably closer than it should have been. But for the life of me I can't figure out how I could reliably tackle the strengths of his list. How does one defend against volley fire that can wipe you out if left unattended, but converts to nasty multiranked ASF with re-rolls to hit if you charge it? How does one defend against huge numbers of power dice EVERY turn now that the ring is nerfed and our other options limited? How does one deal with nasty infantry blocks like phoenix guard who now effectively get hatred and ASF, with 4+ ward saves and multi ranked S4 attacks?
Ideas welcome
Enter 8th edition: same problems, much bigger scale.
Here's the problem:
Always striking first:
Against Dark Elves this is now absurd. Almost all of their units and characters get to strike first AND to re-roll their attacks (unless you're using blackguard to take on spearmen). Effectively they have hatred AND ASF.
That would be something I could deal with: blackguard and cold one knights are more than capable of outboxing high elves, but they won't get across the table because of...
Archery!:
Lothern seaguard are just brutal. Think about big blocks of these guys: they get volley fire, which is just brutal. How many shots does it take a unit of seaguard to make to take out a unit of dark elf infantry? remarkably few. Even cold one knights suffer: roll enough dice and you're going to gets some 1s.
But they ALSO have all the advantages of being high elf spearmen (extra rank for attack, ASF and re-rolls to hit against same I foes).
Oh, and don't forget that repeater bolt thrower spamming, which due to their special rules of "take as many of whatever type of unit you want, you're high elves so whatever" they can do much better than us.
Magic:
Okay, so in 7th ed they had the ability to spam power dice pretty nastily (level 4 and 3 level 2s, buffed by the standard of +D3 magic dice).
But in 8th ed its even worse! Not because they get more boosts, but because power and dispel dice are now in such short supply that their boosts become even nastier. Picture this: he rolls an 4 and a 2 for magic, so he gets 6 dice and you get 4.
Fair enough right? Except its not, because he then reveals his banner of spamming d3 power dice, and a magic item (whose name I forget) that gives him another. So that's an extra 3 average dice. So now he's on 9 and your on 4.
Bad right? But wait, there's more. Now he fields his dragon mage, who gets to add a free dice to his rolls every time he tries to cast a spell: a typical level 2 will try to cast two spells each round, so thats an extra 2 dice. So we're up to 11.
From a basic score of 6 PD and 4 DD, you're now looking at 11 dice versus your 4. And he gets that +4 to +6 PD bonus EVERY turn. Even if he maxes out at 12 dice, he still gets the boost to his rolls for the dragon mage, so in that scenario he gets 14 dice versus your 6. Nasty, just nasty.
But it gets worse still: the spell lists are now much nastier AND ring of hotek has been nerfed (unless you're lucky enough to live in france or germany, which I don't). The only defenses left are dispel scrolls (which you can now take just one of per wizard, as you can't take two arcane items anymore), the feedback scroll (unreliable at best, and 50 points is a lot for a scroll that doesn't actually dispel - and bear in mind he's probably casting with 2 or 3 dice a turn, because he can, so is likely to take a single wound max (and if he has lore of life he can just heal that instantly for getting the spell off...)), staff of sorcery (which is useful, but not enough to change the balance) or the seal of ghrond (same deal).
Hydra killing:
Well, to start with hydras have been made much more killable in 8th ed by the new regen rules. And fire attacks are now much more common. (unit of lothern sea guard with 15 point banner of fire anyone? or perhaps a flaming sword of rhuin cast onto one of his archery units - cast because he has umpteen more power dice than you and there's nothing you can really do about it). So, unlike in 7th ed where you could rely on your hydras getting across the board and being a real pain in the backside for the enemy all game, now you're lucky to keep them alive past turn two.
Oh, and if you do get them into combat, remember that he strikes first and can now attack your handlers with between 2 and 5 models each (depending on his unit formation), with re-rolls to hit, dramatically increasing his chances of killing them (something which was actually quite hard to do in 7th ed). So he kills the beastmasters (+2CR) and does maybe one or two wounds to the hydra with his other 8 to 20 ASF attacks (+1CR). He then gets ranks, his standard and musician. You're quite likely to lose the combat and bam, off you go, because the beastmasterless hydra has a leadership of 6.
And even assuming you survive, if he doesn't break (which is likely, as he'll be steadfast) then his wizard will be sure to get flaming sword of rhuin off onto the unit in combat with your hydra at his next magic phase and bam, dead hydra.
And lots of other bits and pieces too.
So, whats the purpose of this rant? Well, its to ask for any suggestions/tips anyone might have really. I played a game against a high elf opponent recently and lost, although not by much. My issue is less with the loss, but more that I can't identify what I should have done better.
I took a big block of frenzied corsairs with the ring of darkness
Cold one knights with 5+ ward from a cauldron
Block of Cold one knight unit for their armour save
2 hydras (to keep him occupied)
Chariot (for toughness and armour save)
Several units of Reapers and crossbowmen to kill his infantry and shoot down his dragon mage
Some 'sweeper' units to kill his warmachines (master on dark pegasus, dreadlord on a cold one, dark riders, etc).
He had something along the lines of:
5 repeater bolt throwers
30 lothern sea guard
30 lothern sea guard
10 archers
dragon mage
20 phoenix guard
1 chariot
level 4 mage with cloak of nothing non-magical can hurt me, haha.
Cadyran and some other nobles
10 shadow warriors
The game was close - indeed probably closer than it should have been. But for the life of me I can't figure out how I could reliably tackle the strengths of his list. How does one defend against volley fire that can wipe you out if left unattended, but converts to nasty multiranked ASF with re-rolls to hit if you charge it? How does one defend against huge numbers of power dice EVERY turn now that the ring is nerfed and our other options limited? How does one deal with nasty infantry blocks like phoenix guard who now effectively get hatred and ASF, with 4+ ward saves and multi ranked S4 attacks?
Ideas welcome