Help vs Bret and Imp

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Drei
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Help vs Bret and Imp

Post by Drei »

Hi , i played 10 games vs Bret and Imp and won only one of them.

I think the 8 Edition makes De very weak versus Bret and Imp.


The reasons are :

Both armys have large template weapons
Core Knights
Longrange rangeattacks


Is there another plan than Massmagic ?

I tried :
Harpien: Too expensive, maybe only 1 squad of 8 (Bret trebuchet cost 90 point)

Korsars/Spears too weak in CC, templates and knights are better

CoB: there is no good target for +1A, Killing Blow of Wardsave after the first few templatehits....

Some advice ? what did u try versus Imp/Bret ? Maybe DR as core could work versus the Bret trebuchet .. ?
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Post by Grimma »

I run with several units of 5 harpies as my warmachine defence. They are quite capable of reaching the backline by turn 2 and will defeat war machine crews more often than not. Combined with all the other useful things they can do I consider them my cheap and cheerful Swiss army knife unit.
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Post by Camaris »

What is Imp? Empire? DR, Harpies, shades, assassins with manbane/rending stars inside that unit of shades, and dark magic are, generally, great things to take down war machines.

Knights can be thinned out with shooting and magic.(I would recommend dark since it has spells against knights as well as spells against the above warmachine problem) You probably will have infantry that will be steadfast against them, so you could tie them up with that, and then flank charge them with your hammers such as COK, execs and Hydras.
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Post by Drei »

Yes with Imp i mean Empire, sorry.

Maybe its easier if we talk about Bret first.


If i buy Harpien i nearly spend the same amount of points that he does for this trebuchet. The prob is that he has 2 of them (we play 2150 points). So lets say i buy 5 Harpien and another unit of 5 Harpien. The 2 trebuchets are in a corner of the table and need one hit to kill 15 Infunits. That one hit destroies 3 Ranks and the trebuchet earned back its points. This knights wait beside the trebuchet and will kill Harpien that come to close. Even if i manage to kill both trebuchets they will each fire 2 times even if he prays.

I dont think that more then 6 Harpiens are worth it.

In the next game we play i might as well buy no harpien and try to reach CC very fast, ignoring my 500 points crap core units....


Vs Empire its nearly the same.

I try to reach his side of the table. Templates kill half of my Army and Core knights finish the rest.


The big prob is just that we dont have Core Knight ourself..


With the 8 Edition Bret/Emp can place there templates where they want, the area is bigger, they can shoot from 2 rank, have knights as core (which we dont have) and we have to take 500 points of crap units. I didn find a way to make good use of my spears... maybe i will test shadowmagic next game
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Post by Camaris »

Your issue is that you're trying to play on their terms. They want you to rush him with infantry so that he can kill 15 squishy elves per turn and then mop up with cavalry. We're not OnG or skaven; we don't have the numbers to do this. Maybe if you take mass warrior blocks, you MIGHT be able to get away with it with bretts, but definitely not empire.

Yes, if you take units of harpies, some, if not all, will die, but that is the point of warmachine hunters. When I put down two units of harpies and one unit of DR, that's about 200vps that I'm giving to the enemy. That is a small price to pay, when you take into consideration that a trebuchet gets about 200 MINIMUM vps every time it shoots. The trebuchet may kill things and make up its points in the first turn, but that is no reason to let it keep shooting things and triple/quadruple its points. If he has a unit of knights protecting each trebuchet, you can use two warmachine hunters per trebuchet.(easily accomplished with shades, 2X harpies, and 1 unit of DR) That way, he can only charge one unit, and you can use the second unit to eliminate the warmachine.

This should help you mitigate the damage so that you have enough units get to the other side. Now, when you engage his knights, you will want your battle line to be set up so that there are alternating hammers/anvils throughout your battlefield. Anvils are things like spearmen, BG, large units of corsairs, while hammers are things like COK, Hydras, Dragons, etc... If you outrank with your anvils, you can let them charge you and allow your stubborn units to hold so that you can finish them off with the hammers. Alternatively, you can take anvils that are also hammers, so that you can just bash your way through the knights when they charge you. Examples of these are large units of executioners or BG with the banner of murder. When you start hitting knights with mass S5/S6 attacks they will die.

It won't be easy; gunlines are a pretty tough nut to crack for new druchii players, but hang in there, and your black arks will be coming home filled with that darn good bretonnian cheese in no time. :)

cheers,

camaris
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Post by Uruk-hai »

What you could try to do:
- Against Warmachines: Take 6/7 shades and hide in them a Assassin with Manbane/Rending Stars. This assassin has with its rending stars a strength of 7, and hits on a 2+. Since you can hide your Shades anywhere 12" from the oponents army, you can place them somewhere in the nabourhood of the trebuchets (or other warmachine.) Since Bretonnia prays you get first turn. You can march and shoot and with a bit of luck you can kill one trebuchet in first round/ second almost guaranteed.
Further harpies are very effective. It should be possible to reach the warmachine in the second round.
Since only two cavalry men can attack a warmachine, I find DR now less suitable. But if you have nothing else it will at least stop them shooting.

Further tactics against Bretonnia: Let them come and have some units which can counter attack them. (or at least are threatening a counter attack) (Dark Riders, CoC, Cok.) In the main time soften their units up with our repeater crossbow men and magic. (Our repeater crossbowmen with shield and DR with repeater crossbows are very good core units.
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Post by Drei »

thx for all the hints, i will try them soon and post the results here.


Maybe i just need one big spear block without shield as anvil, but let me give u some number first

If he has 2 trebuchet, then he can fire atleast one round with both.

A Hit kills 15 units => -3 Ranks.
He normally has about 15 Knights of the King(4 ranks) => -2 ranks at the charge

That means that i need atleast 9 ranks of Spears vs 1 Knightunit...
In the last game he had 2 Knightlunit.


If he doensnt pray he might get 4 shots with his trebuchet...
Afterall its not that easy to have an anvil.


The Assassin is to expensive to hunt warmachines, plus i need a forest at the right place which is not so easy since he can place the trebuchet where he wants. And after one/2 trebuchet are death the shades and the assassin are pretty much useless.


Im sure now that the CoB is completly useless vs Bret. I have only 15 attacks vs a knight unit, killing blow isnt worth it.

Executioners strike last , and are far to expensive to have much of them, and think of the treb .. .

I think Mass Spears (55+) , Metall(lvl4 sorc) and Shadowlore(lvl2 sorc) + Knights with 2 heros is the best setup.

Just dont worry too much about the spears like i did. Take mass vs Bret and let them get charged by a Knightunit as early as possible.
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Post by C_freman »

You are looking at everything only according to its points value, which is plain wrong.

Against DE, the trebuchet is probably always going to earn its point back. So what? The rest of our army should be strong enough to compensate for this.

In 8th you don't need forest to deploy the shades (at all), and the assassin doesn't die after killing the trebuchets, you can harrass his knights with all those BS5 armor piercing attacks (bretonian knights are not that good against massed RxB fire, I guarantee you. They are bound to fail those 3+ AS throws more often than you think)

The cauldron of blood is GREAT against knights. 15 hatred attacks (from 15 spears, for instance) attacking first with killing blow should be enough to really hurt those knights. I won't even mention what 14 witch elves with the banner of murder can do to them if they flank charge.
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Post by Thanee »

Lore of Metal is great against Brets, of course.

Apart of the obvious attack spells, that ignore/reduce armour, the Glittering Robe + Cauldron Ward save can make a unit of Spears quite survivable on the first round. Add the Banner of Murder to give them some punch, and you can kill a few of them as well.

I havn't tried it yet, but it might work to hold them. Of course, the spell would have to get through in the crucial moment, that is not always going to work. :)

Trebuchets are nasty, but they only hit with 1/3 probability, otherwise they scatter. And with the Cauldron Ward save, the most important unit will at least have less casualities.

Some casualities are to be expected, though.

Black Guard (if they are not shot to pieces) will also rip through Bret lances with the Banner of Murder (or Razor Standard), but they are as squishy as Spearmen (and only 20 can be in a single unit). Maybe units of 10 BG are good? They are too small to be really viable targets for the Trebuchets, and still pack the same punch. Also, if a single one survives, they will hold easily with Stubborn on their side.

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Post by Uruk-hai »

Thanee wrote:Maybe units of 10 BG are good? They are too small to be really viable targets for the Trebuchets, and still pack the same punch. Also, if a single one survives, they will hold easily with Stubborn on their side.



Exactly for this purpose I start to like small units of Black guard. Supposing the Ws is not higher, an opponent should have over 20 attacks to kill them all. If they stand, you can counterattack during the next round and besides grails knights and Questling knights, the Bretonnian knights are weak if they are charged themself or after the first round of combat.
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Post by Burizan »

Small units of witch elves near a cauldron are stubborn, and with KB they eat knights like sushi.

Shades with an assassin are also lethal, even in combat if you use KB.

The CoB is literally the best thing you can take against brets, short of nothing, as it allows almost all of our units to become significantly better. Brets also dislike hydras, lance formation < s5 breath template, and even in combat you can pack a nasty punch.

Stick whip of agony on a BG champion and watch him single handedly take out ~2 knights every round of combat.

Magic wise you can use lore of metal nicely, I also rate dark magic and lore of death.
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Post by Thanee »

Our own Cold One Knights are much better in prolonged combat, thanks to S4 Attacks. They also do much better with the Banner of Murder or Razor Standard, of course.

So, maybe try several smallish units of BG/COK? With a CoB to offer some blessings and a Level 4 with Dagger (Shadow) and Level 2 with Tome (Metal).

Add a bunch of Harpies and Shades, some small RXB units and a huge Warrior unit for your Sorceresses to hide in (and sacrifice at their leisure).

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Post by Blackbone »

Seconding some advice and adding my own.

- Shades can be deployed ANYWHERE at least 12" away. While Assassins are expensive, the shooty one is worth it vs. almost any army IMO
- Metal Lore works wonders. Might even want to think about putting it on a Level 4 so you can go head-to-head vs. Level 4 Damsel. Seeing more and more of those these days.

- Been using 2 Hydras and they can really irritate Bretonnians. Walking to the side of a lance's arc of visibility for a future flank or rear charge, hitting them with STR5 breath before you get wounded, surviving the initial charge, then holding a lance in place for a flank charge with a 2nd Hydra, etc.
- Small idea: If you use a large group of Black Guard at least put the Ironcurse Icon on Champ.


- Blackbone
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Post by Drei »

Killing Blow is only good versus Heros, against Knights its a waste of points for the Cauldron.

For the same amount of Points u get a hero with armor ignoring weapon what will easily kill more/or atleast the same number of knight then 15 attacks killing blow.

I have the feeling that many DE abilities are just useless versus Bret/Empire.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Look at the Cauldron for example:

+1 Attack, well doesnt matter because with s3 your not going to kill something anyway.

Killing Blow, sounds funny first, but u only have 15 attacks and most of the target have only one life .... . Against heros it is good, but they have better protection, are harder to hit and can choose to attack the unit without killing blow

+5 Wardsave , Just lol, because against a trebuchet u get so many hits that u will still loose 2 ranks, and each is crucial to be steadfast. btw the bret player gets that for free in half of the games....

+2 S as a CoB ability would be much much better...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will test the Assassin if my new plan fails again, but stop argueing with Killing Blow, its just wishful thinking.


If u use RxB u will have no anvil at all, dont think its a good idea.

btw, did someone play against a similair bret army and won without a big sorcs ?
Last edited by Drei on Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Drei »

the bitter truth is just:

+the trebuchet template is bigger

+no more guessing

+1/4 off my army is weak inf

+the enemie has core knight and we dont

that just a bad combination for us


the hydra will do what ? heroic killing blow on the way... SCR ?

thats nice that shades can be placed everywhere with 12'' distance to the enemie, a Knight has 17-18'' charge range
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Post by Camaris »

dreikaesehoch wrote:-------------------------------------------------------------------
Look at the Cauldron for example:

+1 Attack, well doesnt matter because with s3 your not going to kill something anyway.

Killing Blow, sounds funny first, but u only have 15 attacks and most of the target have only one life .... . Against heros it is good, but they have better protection, are harder to hit and can choose to attack the unit without killing blow

+5 Wardsave , Just lol, because against a trebuchet u get so many hits that u will still loose 2 ranks, and each is crucial to be steadfast. btw the bret player gets that for free in half of the games....

+2 S as a CoB ability would be much much better...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


+1 Attack is a great use for high S troops such as executioners and cold one Knights

KB is my favorite blessing, because I have won games with it by attacking the enemy's BSB with masses of KB attacks. In those games those heroes chose to charge the unit that wasn't cauldron blessed, only to learn that I was changing my cauldron blessing in the next turn. Furthermore, if you KB bless an mass attack SCR unit such as witch elves or corsairs and have them flank charge a unit of knights, they're not going to kill loads but those couple extra kills will prove invaluable in breaking the unit. You're not just KB blessing to kill multi-wound models; you're also blessing to negate armour.

5+ Ward save isn't the best ability but it is great for blessing your troops in the first couple of turns when they're trying to get to the fight.

In addition to this the cauldron can be upgraded to a BSB, one that is very hard to kill, and the cauldron makes khainite units stubborn.

the bitter truth is just:

+the trebuchet template is bigger

+no more guessing

+1/4 off my army is weak inf

+the enemie has core knight and we dont

that just a bad combination for us


the hydra will do what ? heroic killing blow on the way... SCR ?

thats nice that shades can be placed everywhere with 12'' distance to the enemie, a Knight has 17-18'' charge range


Well, don't put that shade unit right in front of the knights. lol

Yes, we don't have core knights, but this is one of the rewards of playing dark elves. We can't just throw down a bunch of knights like bretts and mindlessly charge forwards or just shoot the tar out of everything like empire. We have to develop a synergistic plan where our magic/shooting is thinning out numbers, and then tie them up with "weak" SCR generating core infantry, and finish them off with cavalry and monsters.

cheers,
Camaris
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Post by Tethlis »

Also, don't forget the value of terrain. Virtually every player I talk to seems to forget that ranked-up units lose Steadfast when fighting in a variety of terrain pieces, so that's something you can use in your favor. If you deploy your forces behind, for exmaple, a river, any incoming Lance Formations either have to charge through the river or march around it to reach you. If you keep your unit out of the water, however, you preserve the full benefits of Steadfast.

Yes, Trebuchets are cheap, and yes, they will kill some units, but the idea that a unit has to "make its point back" to be effective is a big mistake. Plenty of units in our army don't kill anything, but serve a valuable and crucial role. Becoming too fixated on using a unit of that costs X-points to wipe out an enemy that costs Y-points simply isn't effective; you can lose any unit in your army and still win, as long as the sacrifice gains a big enough reward.

I see many battle reports these days saying "On Turn 1, I lost my Level 4 Mage to an enemy spell, so I quit and we started over." Why? Things die. Yes, it's always unfortunate when you lose an important unit quickly, but in games where I lose something important in Turn 1, I actually win more often than I lose. Why? I play smarter, and my opponent gets careless. Don't become too fixated on the points aspect of the game; you can lose troops and still win.
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Post by Grimma »

I play Brettonians regularly - as mentioned by others the trick is to use the synergies available to the Druchii. My formula for success so far has been a) Cauldron to Ward Save the blocks early and then boost units in combat b) Shadow magic to debuff Lances. lower initiative or movement and pull power dice from his phase as he tries to dispell the remains in play spells. Harpies to get to the trebs asap.

A lance that has been debuffed by the Withering will loose 3-4 knights to my 15 man RXB unit. Once a lance is down to that many models it's combat punch is really nerfed. One thing I've found is that the Hydra's breath weapon is wasted on Knights as the armour save is too good and they get a 5+ Ward, but it does quite well in combat of course.

Brets also have relatively low leadership which you need to manipulate to your advantage. I've seen many a lance bravely running away from the action due to failed panic checks.
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Post by Ichiyo1821 »

dreikaesehoch wrote:thx for all the hints, i will try them soon and post the results here.


Maybe i just need one big spear block without shield as anvil, but let me give u some number first

If he has 2 trebuchet, then he can fire atleast one round with both.

A Hit kills 15 units => -3 Ranks.
He normally has about 15 Knights of the King(4 ranks) => -2 ranks at the charge

That means that i need atleast 9 ranks of Spears vs 1 Knightunit...
In the last game he had 2 Knightlunit.


If he doensnt pray he might get 4 shots with his trebuchet...
Afterall its not that easy to have an anvil.


The Assassin is to expensive to hunt warmachines, plus i need a forest at the right place which is not so easy since he can place the trebuchet where he wants. And after one/2 trebuchet are death the shades and the assassin are pretty much useless.


Im sure now that the CoB is completly useless vs Bret. I have only 15 attacks vs a knight unit, killing blow isnt worth it.

Executioners strike last , and are far to expensive to have much of them, and think of the treb .. .

I think Mass Spears (55+) , Metall(lvl4 sorc) and Shadowlore(lvl2 sorc) + Knights with 2 heros is the best setup.

Just dont worry too much about the spears like i did. Take mass vs Bret and let them get charged by a Knightunit as early as possible.


COB is not useless vs Brets. Try gifting your basic spears with KB against Grail Knights and watch your opponent deal with it even with the Blessing. Trebuchets? Bloodshield your most valuable unit and he'll think twice on which to shoot. Capable of impressive shooting as well, most Druchii palyers learn to prioritize which targets are worth shooting at, now use that thinking inversely, which of your units will he likely shoot at and with that being said how can I minimize the amount of shooting directed towards it? Do I screen it with cheaper expendable units? Do I use terrain? Do I deploy on his "blind spots".Against a shooting army I cannot state how important deployment is and based my experience fielding a shooting heavy list and fighting against such, the main goal is to maximize and deal as much damage as you can in the first 2 turns. Most warmachine crews, (actually all except maybe Chaos Dwarves on the Hellcanon) don't really do much in combat and I have never had any warmachines last against 5 Harpies, I even locked down Anvils of Doom with them for turns. Against counter charges, if they are completely unavoidable, you can either match a unit of your that is guaranteed to break and overrun that unit you wish to charge and get out of his knight's charge arc or simply keep a unit within 1' of your own whose purpose is to take that knight charge and setup a counter charge of your own. The latter is however more difficult to pull of as we are not horde army. Take advantage of this time to learn how to fight against them where in this edition Empire is at it's strongest and Brettonians are at their weakest.
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Post by Jbtheslipperking »

A simple trick is to screen your big spear block with 10 corsairs. Confront the stone throwers guarded with knights with the corsairs with sss. 10 corsairs in one rank and move them straight in his face. Put KB from COB on them and see if hes knight want to charge. Hes looking at 24 at with reroll = 16 hits, 3 KB + 5 normal wounds = 3-4 kills. And the stone throwers can`t fire accurately other than straight at the corsairs, taking out a limited number, killing maby 2. Shades with assasin is a good option - use them in combination with harpies. DE as they are now should take down bretts no sweat really as bretts are rather weak now.
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Post by Thanee »

Corsairs do not fully block LoS, and hard cover does not affect stone throwers. AFAIK, as long as they have LoS, they can fire without penalty (i.e. as magic missiles). They only use indirect fire, when they do not have LoS.

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Post by Red... »

Empire and Bret armies that play 'tin can' formations are very unpleasant.

In essence, they bombard you with nasty ranged attacks that prevent you from hanging back, but then savage you with devastating charges from their heavy cavalry if you do try to come towards them. A trebuchet positioned alongside a unit of knights can be very challenging to destroy: if you go to attack the trebuchet, then he counter charges you with his knights. If you ignore the trebuchet, then he pummels you with it instead.

The best way around it for dark elves - imo anyway - is to use effective combined arms. Use highly mobile troops as rapid assault forces and disable his artillery as quickly and as painlessly as possible. Once he has lost these pieces, the game is yours to control: he has to come towards you with his knights, on your terms rather than his.

A good army list for this purpose could be something along the lines of:

Lords:
Supreme Sorceress
Pendant of Khaine
Dispel scroll

(320 for Lords)

Heroes:
Death Hag as BSB
Standard of Hag Graef
Rune of Khaine

Cauldron of Blood

Master on Dark Pegasus
Armour of Eternal Servitude, Dragon Bane Pearl, Sea dragon cloak, shield and great weapon

(555 for heroes)

Core:
13 RxBs with Champ and Musician [Supreme Sorceress goes here]

5 Dark Riders with Musician

5 Dark Riders with Musician

20 Corsairs with full command and sea serpent standard

6 Harpies

(574 for Core (640 including harpies))

Special:
5 Cold One Knights

14 Executioners with full command and banner of murder [Death Hag BSB goes here]

6 Shades with extra hand weapons

(460 for special)

Rare:
1 Hydra

1 Reaper bolt thrower

(275 for rare)

Total: 2250.

The army would work along the following lines:

The shades, dark riders, harpies and pegasus master would aggressively move towards his warmachines and disable them (using flanks, gaps in his lines, scouting, flying over intervening models, etc).

The Executioners and Corsairs advance very slowly forwards (or even just stay where they are) to act as an anvil if he charges into your main battle lines. The Executioners should be supported by the Cauldron to make them stubborn and gain a 5+ ward save, up until they are going into combat, whereupon they should be given +1 attack. The BSB Death Hag will enable them to strike before most opponents and dish out a large number of high strength, armour piercing attacks against any heavy cavalry foolish enough to take them on. If he charges the corsairs, give them killing blow from the cauldron instead: they will get a total of 21 attacks (3 per model and 4 for the champ in the front rank, then another 5 from behind), which should be enough to get at least a few killing blows against his knights. I've gone with units with ranks of 5 rather than 7 or even 10 because of the small frontage used by most Bret cavalry formations.

The Cold One Knights can be positioned as a counter charge unit: if his knights come towards your lines and charge at one of the two infantry blocks, you can then counter charge with the knights on your turn (ideally in his flank), which will really hurt him. Alternatively, they can be used to bulk up one of your flanks or even, at just 135 points for the unit, as a sacrificial unit to hold up his advancing knights while your light troops take care of his pesky artillery and missie support etc.

I know that you like magic, so have added the Supreme Sorceress into the list. While she definitely has the potential to really hurt his knights, the aim is for this to be just a bonus. The rest of your army should really do a lot of the work for you. She has a dispel scroll so that you can stop at least one instance of dwellers below being cast. Make sure you use it when you really need it, although don't wait too long.

The crossbowmen and repeater bolt thrower are there so that you can harrass his knights if they try to avoid coming towards your nasty infantry blocks and whittle down his numbers a bit in general. But don't rely on them - as I'm sure you know, S3 AP and S4 AP versus heavy armoured armies won't kill much. You should also use them at the start of the game to take out his lighter units (fast cav, scouts, etc) so that they don't get in the way of your own warmachine hunters.

This is just one of many possible set ups against a combined heavy cavalry - artillery army. It may not be optimal, but hopefully gives you a few ideas of the sorts of army set up and strategies you could consider using to boost your chances of winning against Brets and Empire...
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Post by Jbtheslipperking »

Thanee wrote:Corsairs do not fully block LoS, and hard cover does not affect stone throwers. AFAIK, as long as they have LoS, they can fire without penalty (i.e. as magic missiles). They only use indirect fire, when they do not have LoS.

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Thanee


Why doesn`t corsaris block line of sight ? Fielded 10 wide and a unit 5 wide 1 " behind it should be coverd ? They are not skirmish and the crewmen on the trebuchet should not be able to see past the corsairs to the unit behind it. Did I miss something ?
Wtf, dragon`s breath is not flamable ?
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Grimma
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Post by Grimma »

Now that depends on what you determine the Treb's firing point to be... is it the crossbar or the bucket? If it' the bucket is it at the bottom or the top of the firing arc? I thinks its safe to assume that any Bretonnian play worth his salt is going to want to claim the highest point on the treb as his line of sight, meaning that corsairs ain't going to screen a unit enough to completely block out something behind them. And remember, all he needs to do is to be able to see 1 head to claim line of sight to that unit.
UNSEEN LERKER MAGAZINE - It'll make you happier than a Corsair in a Bretonnian orphanage.
Jbtheslipperking
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Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:17 am

Post by Jbtheslipperking »

Oh, and there I was thinking that you need to draw los from the crew of the warmachine. Well well, need to go and make some proxy RBT`s I guess, with a huge plattform underneath :twisted:
Wtf, dragon`s breath is not flamable ?
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