COB blessing and models switching units.
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Fastcarfreak
- Slave (off the Altar)
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COB blessing and models switching units.
Does a model that joins a unit with a blessing from the COB gain the blessing? Or does the model have to be in the unit at the time of the blessing?
Not adressed in DE army book nor in a FAQ.
What is certain is that a single unit can be blessed by one COB (see DE AB).
This alone can provide most of the required answers, knowing that a single character is considered as being a unit when he is alone, and considered as being part of a unit when he joins one.
A rule-abiding interpretation is that the whole unit is blessed for a specific duration.
When the character joins it, he is now part of the unit. The AB states that a unit is blessed, not a part of a unit, so the whole unit (including now the character) is blessed.
Reversely, if the character is blessed singlehandedly, and later joins a unit, the blessing is conferred to the whole unit, because there is only one whole unit to consider: the merging of the character and the unit.
A more tricky question is what happens if a unit with a character is blessed, and later the character leaves that unit?
Still, the rule states that a single unit may be blessed at one time. A blessing cannot be split. The unit is eligible, but the lone character is a unit himself so he is eligible as well.
Probably it would be up to the player's choice to tell which unit keeps the blessing.
The most difficult case is a unit with a character receiving a blessing; the character leaving that unit and taking the blessing with him (player's choice); the same character then joins another unit.
I would say that it is now the second unit (including the character) which should be wholly considered to be blessed.
EDIT: I removed the most controversial part which was ending my initial post.
What is certain is that a single unit can be blessed by one COB (see DE AB).
This alone can provide most of the required answers, knowing that a single character is considered as being a unit when he is alone, and considered as being part of a unit when he joins one.
A rule-abiding interpretation is that the whole unit is blessed for a specific duration.
When the character joins it, he is now part of the unit. The AB states that a unit is blessed, not a part of a unit, so the whole unit (including now the character) is blessed.
Reversely, if the character is blessed singlehandedly, and later joins a unit, the blessing is conferred to the whole unit, because there is only one whole unit to consider: the merging of the character and the unit.
A more tricky question is what happens if a unit with a character is blessed, and later the character leaves that unit?
Still, the rule states that a single unit may be blessed at one time. A blessing cannot be split. The unit is eligible, but the lone character is a unit himself so he is eligible as well.
Probably it would be up to the player's choice to tell which unit keeps the blessing.
The most difficult case is a unit with a character receiving a blessing; the character leaving that unit and taking the blessing with him (player's choice); the same character then joins another unit.
I would say that it is now the second unit (including the character) which should be wholly considered to be blessed.
EDIT: I removed the most controversial part which was ending my initial post.
Last edited by Calisson on Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dalamar
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I follow a simple rule with CoB blessing:
The blessing stays with original target, no matter what.
And since I bless units and not characters 99% of the time, then the blessing stays on that unit no matter what characters join/leave.
It of course affects any and all characters inside that unit while they're in that unit.
The blessing stays with original target, no matter what.
And since I bless units and not characters 99% of the time, then the blessing stays on that unit no matter what characters join/leave.
It of course affects any and all characters inside that unit while they're in that unit.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Ichiyo1821
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The rules for COB are simple. You grant the blessing at the start of your turn and thus the character is already in the unit before you even give the blessing. If the character leaves the unit, the unit that was the original target retains the blessing, the character loses the bonus as he is no longer in the unit. If the character for say was the original target, if he moves into the unit, he retains the bonus but it does no transfer to the unit.
8th Edition
W/D/L
86/1/5
New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0
9th Age
W/D/L
Vae Victis
Character kill count -182
"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig
W/D/L
86/1/5
New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0
9th Age
W/D/L
Vae Victis
Character kill count -182
"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig
My interpretation is that the CoB bless the unit, giving it a special rule. As with other special rules (such as effects provided by banners), the character only benefits as long as they remain with the unit.
Lock up your children, shut all windows tight.
The Witch Elves are hunting for victims tonight.
When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.
The Witch Elves are hunting for victims tonight.
When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.
@ all
Nowadays (8th ed), a character IS a unit.
After a character has joined a unit, they make together a single unit, too, which includes R&F and the character. The character is not to be considered as foreign to the unit, he IS part of it.
The COB does bless a single unit.
If that unit includes a character, well, the character and the remain of the unit make, together, the target.
If, later, that unit happens to split in two units (the R&F unit and the character unit), there is no particular reason to say that the larger unit is necessarily the one which must keep the blessing and the other unit, because it is smaller, cannot keep it.
Both parts of the original {R&F + Char} unit are units.
A single unit, from these two, may keep the blessing (as the blessing is conferred to a single unit).
Which one? Nothing forces you to say it is the R&F unit.
Of course, it seems natural, especially with the 7th habits when lone characters were not units.
But the other choice is as legitimate.
@ Valkyre
See bottom p.101.
Nowadays (8th ed), a character IS a unit.
After a character has joined a unit, they make together a single unit, too, which includes R&F and the character. The character is not to be considered as foreign to the unit, he IS part of it.
The COB does bless a single unit.
If that unit includes a character, well, the character and the remain of the unit make, together, the target.
If, later, that unit happens to split in two units (the R&F unit and the character unit), there is no particular reason to say that the larger unit is necessarily the one which must keep the blessing and the other unit, because it is smaller, cannot keep it.
Both parts of the original {R&F + Char} unit are units.
A single unit, from these two, may keep the blessing (as the blessing is conferred to a single unit).
Which one? Nothing forces you to say it is the R&F unit.
Of course, it seems natural, especially with the 7th habits when lone characters were not units.
But the other choice is as legitimate.
@ Valkyre
See bottom p.101.
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Fastcarfreak
- Slave (off the Altar)
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Sorry, mate!
Short version:
many players consider that the COB blesses a "unit", which is mostly made of Rank & files, in the same way as a pennant provides an advantage to that unit.
Whoever happens to be inside that unit gets the blessing. Even if he entered the unit after the blessing was already provided.
Reversely, whover happens to leave that unit does not get the blessing anymore.
Example:
a sorceress is inside a unit of 10 RXBmen. That unit gets 5+ ward save.
If the sorceress leaves the RXBmen for any reason, and a master joins in the RXBmen:
according to many players, the RXBmen keep the blessing, the sorceress has it no longer, the master gets it.
According to me, what is said above can become true but it is not mandatory:
sure, you have that possibility of keeping the blessing with the RXBmen (and the master) indeed,
but there is another possibility: you can perfectly argue that the RXBmen loose the blessing and the sorceress keeps it, and even brings it with her if she joins another unit.
If you're happy with the majority's interpretation, that is fine, it covers most cases, you don't really need more.
It matters to understand my interpretation only for the ones who want to know about absolutely all possibilities offered.
Hope that it's clearer now!
Short version:
many players consider that the COB blesses a "unit", which is mostly made of Rank & files, in the same way as a pennant provides an advantage to that unit.
Whoever happens to be inside that unit gets the blessing. Even if he entered the unit after the blessing was already provided.
Reversely, whover happens to leave that unit does not get the blessing anymore.
Example:
a sorceress is inside a unit of 10 RXBmen. That unit gets 5+ ward save.
If the sorceress leaves the RXBmen for any reason, and a master joins in the RXBmen:
according to many players, the RXBmen keep the blessing, the sorceress has it no longer, the master gets it.
According to me, what is said above can become true but it is not mandatory:
sure, you have that possibility of keeping the blessing with the RXBmen (and the master) indeed,
but there is another possibility: you can perfectly argue that the RXBmen loose the blessing and the sorceress keeps it, and even brings it with her if she joins another unit.
If you're happy with the majority's interpretation, that is fine, it covers most cases, you don't really need more.
It matters to understand my interpretation only for the ones who want to know about absolutely all possibilities offered.
Hope that it's clearer now!
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
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Ichiyo1821
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At the start of your turn you choose a unit to receive a blessing for the COB. Start of turn means even before charges are declared or movement. Thus if you target for example:
Spearmen with a Master. You cannot target the master as an individual unit anymore because he is "part" of the unit already. If he leaves the unit it follows that he loses the blessing because the targeting rules.
You can give the Master a blessing for example he is not within a unit let's say with +1 attack, now on the movement phase when he joins a Spearmen unit, the unit does not gain the +1 attack as the character simply joins the unit but retains the +1 attack there is no such rule similar to when a character who is stubborn makes the unit stubborn for the COB Blessing unless FAQ'ed Whether someone argues RAW or RAI I think such interpretation is more logical if not fair.
Again the phrase start of turn sequence means that targeting issue has been cleared, as for the "transferring" of blessing a character always joins a unit and not the other way around. If the character joins a blessed unit, he gets the blessing as long as he stays in the unit. If the character is blessed and joins a unit, only he has the blessing.
Spearmen with a Master. You cannot target the master as an individual unit anymore because he is "part" of the unit already. If he leaves the unit it follows that he loses the blessing because the targeting rules.
You can give the Master a blessing for example he is not within a unit let's say with +1 attack, now on the movement phase when he joins a Spearmen unit, the unit does not gain the +1 attack as the character simply joins the unit but retains the +1 attack there is no such rule similar to when a character who is stubborn makes the unit stubborn for the COB Blessing unless FAQ'ed Whether someone argues RAW or RAI I think such interpretation is more logical if not fair.
Again the phrase start of turn sequence means that targeting issue has been cleared, as for the "transferring" of blessing a character always joins a unit and not the other way around. If the character joins a blessed unit, he gets the blessing as long as he stays in the unit. If the character is blessed and joins a unit, only he has the blessing.
8th Edition
W/D/L
86/1/5
New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0
9th Age
W/D/L
Vae Victis
Character kill count -182
"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig
W/D/L
86/1/5
New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0
9th Age
W/D/L
Vae Victis
Character kill count -182
"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig
Ichiyo1821, I cannot agree, because what you say is just contrary to some written rules.
The difficulty for all of us, former 7th ed players, is that we still have in mind the concept that characters were not units at that time, and the wording "unit" meant core, special or rare units only.
This is not true anymore.
Lone characters are now "units" as legitimate as spearmen.
In your first example, I agree that you cannot target the master as an individual unit because he is "part" of the unit already.
But, contrary to what you imply, you cannot target the spearmen either.
You have to target both, because they form a single unit together... at this moment. See top p.99.
So, later on, when the unit is split into two separate units, the spearmen unit on one side, the master unit on the other side, of course there is a single unit which retains the blessing, of course it could be the spearmen unit, but there exist no rule preventing the master unit to be chosen instead to become the one unit retaining the blessing.
To illustrate furthermore where your reasoning has no basis:
Suppose you have a "unit" made of a Dreadlord, a Master and an assasssin; and nobody else. Yes, this is now legal, see p.97.
A COB blesses that unit.
Then, during the movement phase, the Dreadlord declares a charge singlehand.
During the "other movements", the Master and the Assassin separate.
They are now forming three different units.
I think that we all agree that the COB can bless only one unit at a time (because that is written so in the bestiary).
So, which unit is blessed now?
There is a rule telling that only one unit remains blessed, but there is no rule telling which one. This is why I leave it to the player's choice.
In your second example, contrary to what you say, if the master was blessed before he joined a unit,
and he joins the spearmen later, while blessed,
now you're in a situation when the master is not anymore a unit, but part of a larger unit made of spearmen and himself.
In your example, you admit that the Master remains blessed.
The blessing says "all models in the unit benefit from...".
Read it! Why would you refuse to apply the rule when it is written cristal clear? No need for a FAQ for this one.
@ flash29
Indeed, the paragraph p.97 mentions that
- if a character joins a unit which is already affected by an augment/hex, he becomes affected it, as long as he remains in that unit.
- if a character is under the effects of an augment/hex, when he joins a unit, the unit becomes affected as long as he stays in it.
This paragraph tells what happens when the character leaves the unit, but only in the case that the unit and the character were not together when the augment/hex was cast.
It does not tell what happens when the augment/hex is cast while the character is already part of the unit, and he leaves it later on. I'd imagine that all the models who received the augment/blessing just keep it!
This is contrary to the COB, which specifically cannot bless more than one unit at a time.
At least, the rule you quote can be used as a guide for my former examples, in order to limit the possibilities to transfer the blessing in a fancy way (which were extreme examples, probably never to be seen).
The difficulty for all of us, former 7th ed players, is that we still have in mind the concept that characters were not units at that time, and the wording "unit" meant core, special or rare units only.
This is not true anymore.
Lone characters are now "units" as legitimate as spearmen.
In your first example, I agree that you cannot target the master as an individual unit because he is "part" of the unit already.
But, contrary to what you imply, you cannot target the spearmen either.
You have to target both, because they form a single unit together... at this moment. See top p.99.
So, later on, when the unit is split into two separate units, the spearmen unit on one side, the master unit on the other side, of course there is a single unit which retains the blessing, of course it could be the spearmen unit, but there exist no rule preventing the master unit to be chosen instead to become the one unit retaining the blessing.
To illustrate furthermore where your reasoning has no basis:
Suppose you have a "unit" made of a Dreadlord, a Master and an assasssin; and nobody else. Yes, this is now legal, see p.97.
A COB blesses that unit.
Then, during the movement phase, the Dreadlord declares a charge singlehand.
During the "other movements", the Master and the Assassin separate.
They are now forming three different units.
I think that we all agree that the COB can bless only one unit at a time (because that is written so in the bestiary).
So, which unit is blessed now?
There is a rule telling that only one unit remains blessed, but there is no rule telling which one. This is why I leave it to the player's choice.
In your second example, contrary to what you say, if the master was blessed before he joined a unit,
and he joins the spearmen later, while blessed,
now you're in a situation when the master is not anymore a unit, but part of a larger unit made of spearmen and himself.
In your example, you admit that the Master remains blessed.
The blessing says "all models in the unit benefit from...".
Read it! Why would you refuse to apply the rule when it is written cristal clear? No need for a FAQ for this one.
@ flash29
Indeed, the paragraph p.97 mentions that
- if a character joins a unit which is already affected by an augment/hex, he becomes affected it, as long as he remains in that unit.
- if a character is under the effects of an augment/hex, when he joins a unit, the unit becomes affected as long as he stays in it.
This paragraph tells what happens when the character leaves the unit, but only in the case that the unit and the character were not together when the augment/hex was cast.
It does not tell what happens when the augment/hex is cast while the character is already part of the unit, and he leaves it later on. I'd imagine that all the models who received the augment/blessing just keep it!
This is contrary to the COB, which specifically cannot bless more than one unit at a time.
At least, the rule you quote can be used as a guide for my former examples, in order to limit the possibilities to transfer the blessing in a fancy way (which were extreme examples, probably never to be seen).
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
Waaay to much reading into rule lawyering about this. Pick your unit, bless it. That's it, if a character leaves he leaves, the unit stays blessed. The only time a character IS a unit is when he is solo. So in order to bless a single character unit, he would have to be solo. If he is in a unit, he is part of that unit and not a unit in himself.
@thenick18
What confuses you is that you're still in the old 7th edition logic, when the unit were only core, special or rare units.
At that time, the fact to have characters inside did not change the nature of the unit.
Nowadays, in the 8th edition, there are:
- {core/ special/ rare units}; let's call them {troop units}.
- {lone character units} defined p.96;
- {combined units} which include one character plus troops and/or other characters, defined p.99.
Pick your unit, bless it.
=> You bless the combined unit.
That's it, if a character leaves he leaves, the unit stays blessed.
Before: the {combined troop & character unit} is blessed.
After: {troop-only unit} and {character unit} are no longer merged.
There is no unit which "stays". The combined unit was split into two different units.
Which one of the two new units is blessed? No rule forces the choice.
The only time a character IS a unit is when he is solo. So in order to bless a single character unit, he would have to be solo. If he is in a unit, he is part of that unit and not a unit in himself.
=> Yes. I agree 100%.
I just add that the reverse is true (although it was not the case in the 7th edition):
The only time a {troop-only unit} IS a unit is when it is without characters. So in order to bless a {troop-only unit}, it would have to be without character. If there is a character with it, the {troop-only unit} is part of the combined unit and not a unit in itself.
Come on, it is really not complex! It is just that it is new.
What confuses you is that you're still in the old 7th edition logic, when the unit were only core, special or rare units.
At that time, the fact to have characters inside did not change the nature of the unit.
Nowadays, in the 8th edition, there are:
- {core/ special/ rare units}; let's call them {troop units}.
- {lone character units} defined p.96;
- {combined units} which include one character plus troops and/or other characters, defined p.99.
Pick your unit, bless it.
=> You bless the combined unit.
That's it, if a character leaves he leaves, the unit stays blessed.
Before: the {combined troop & character unit} is blessed.
After: {troop-only unit} and {character unit} are no longer merged.
There is no unit which "stays". The combined unit was split into two different units.
Which one of the two new units is blessed? No rule forces the choice.
The only time a character IS a unit is when he is solo. So in order to bless a single character unit, he would have to be solo. If he is in a unit, he is part of that unit and not a unit in himself.
=> Yes. I agree 100%.
I just add that the reverse is true (although it was not the case in the 7th edition):
The only time a {troop-only unit} IS a unit is when it is without characters. So in order to bless a {troop-only unit}, it would have to be without character. If there is a character with it, the {troop-only unit} is part of the combined unit and not a unit in itself.
Come on, it is really not complex! It is just that it is new.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
But it also says int he rulebook, pg 96. "Characters that have not joined another unit are treated as a separate unit. of the appropriate type..."
So unless the character is alone, he is a part of whatever unit he is in. This feels like way too much bending of a game mechanic in druchii favor to be in any shape or form a rule. Its one of those things overlooked by GW, creating these loop holes in the rule set.
Also on pg 99, it says that a character and unit are one combined unit with the exceptions listed. In the exceptions listed there is nothing mentioned about buffing the character specifically and not the unit or visa versa, or any other effect. If there is an effect that is character only or unit only it is described that way in the description of that effect. "Select a unit, select a character...blah blah blah."
At the bottom of page 100, Special Rules, this pretty much explains it.
"Unless noted in the text of the rule itself, a special rule applying to a character does not apply to the unit and visa versa."
"On the other hand, many spells and magic items bestow special rules and other effects on units. In this case, everyone (including characters) in the COMBINED unit will be affected. "
So if the unit breaks up, it is no longer a combined unit. The effect is no more as it affects the COMBINED unit.
So unless the character is alone, he is a part of whatever unit he is in. This feels like way too much bending of a game mechanic in druchii favor to be in any shape or form a rule. Its one of those things overlooked by GW, creating these loop holes in the rule set.
Also on pg 99, it says that a character and unit are one combined unit with the exceptions listed. In the exceptions listed there is nothing mentioned about buffing the character specifically and not the unit or visa versa, or any other effect. If there is an effect that is character only or unit only it is described that way in the description of that effect. "Select a unit, select a character...blah blah blah."
At the bottom of page 100, Special Rules, this pretty much explains it.
"Unless noted in the text of the rule itself, a special rule applying to a character does not apply to the unit and visa versa."
"On the other hand, many spells and magic items bestow special rules and other effects on units. In this case, everyone (including characters) in the COMBINED unit will be affected. "
So if the unit breaks up, it is no longer a combined unit. The effect is no more as it affects the COMBINED unit.
Yes, a character is either a unit by himself, or part of a combined unit.
It is a new game mechanic, not a loophole. Nothing needs to be bent, but just understood.
Also, we're not applying any special rule, but a blessing which simply says "all models in the unit ...".
At least, everyone agrees that when a character is inside a combined unit, all models in the combined unit receive the blessing.
Also, everyone agreed so far that when the character leaves the combined unit, the remaining troop unit (with no character) is eligible to keep the blessing, while the character looses the blessing.
However, you are the first one, with the last sentence of your post just above, to have discovered that there is a loophole indeed:
the combined unit does not exist anymore as such, as it has become two separate units.
So the original unit bestowed with the blessing not existing anymore, RAW speaking, the blessing should not remain at all.
Even in the first case, it would hurt: if a characterless troop unit was blessed, and later joined by a character, now you get a combined unit. Would RAW imply that the original unit have ceased to exist and no more blessing remains?
Fortunately, I don't believe that anyone would be so harsh as to require that, even not our usual opponents.
Everyone believed that the blessing would remain in one of the two units made from the original combined unit, and that if one blessed unit merged with another unit not blessed, the combined unit would be blessed.
We could keep that for granted.
The only thing I am arguing is that when the character leaves the combined unit, you can choose to select instead to give the blessing to the character, while the troop unit looses it (this could be useful if the character charges out).
My rationale is that when the combined unit is split, and you have two units now made from the original combined unit, there is no specific reason to favour one new unit rather than the other.
It is a new game mechanic, not a loophole. Nothing needs to be bent, but just understood.
Also, we're not applying any special rule, but a blessing which simply says "all models in the unit ...".
At least, everyone agrees that when a character is inside a combined unit, all models in the combined unit receive the blessing.
Also, everyone agreed so far that when the character leaves the combined unit, the remaining troop unit (with no character) is eligible to keep the blessing, while the character looses the blessing.
However, you are the first one, with the last sentence of your post just above, to have discovered that there is a loophole indeed:
the combined unit does not exist anymore as such, as it has become two separate units.
So the original unit bestowed with the blessing not existing anymore, RAW speaking, the blessing should not remain at all.
Even in the first case, it would hurt: if a characterless troop unit was blessed, and later joined by a character, now you get a combined unit. Would RAW imply that the original unit have ceased to exist and no more blessing remains?
Fortunately, I don't believe that anyone would be so harsh as to require that, even not our usual opponents.
Everyone believed that the blessing would remain in one of the two units made from the original combined unit, and that if one blessed unit merged with another unit not blessed, the combined unit would be blessed.
We could keep that for granted.
The only thing I am arguing is that when the character leaves the combined unit, you can choose to select instead to give the blessing to the character, while the troop unit looses it (this could be useful if the character charges out).
My rationale is that when the combined unit is split, and you have two units now made from the original combined unit, there is no specific reason to favour one new unit rather than the other.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
When character join a unit they become part of it, and when they leave they are considered their own unit. This gives the impression that characters joining units are more or less along for the ride. The BRB does not speak of "combined units", but rather "units joined by or including characters". Conversely, it seems to me that it is at best stretching to claim that a character leaving the unit constitutes a split unit. As the BRB does not otherwise allow for splitting a unit in two, I would say there is no grounds to assume that this is what happens. The character merely chooses to join, remain in, or leave a blessed unit. While part of the unit they benefit, but once they leave they leave the blessing behind along with the unit.
Lock up your children, shut all windows tight.
The Witch Elves are hunting for victims tonight.
When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.
The Witch Elves are hunting for victims tonight.
When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.
<sigh>
The BRB does define combined units p.99, in the chapter called "combined units".
I don't want to create rules.
I try to read them and to understand them.
When a character leaves a unit,
there used to be a combined unit,
there is now two separate units.
I call that splitting the combined unit, but I'm happy to change the word. Call this as you wish. The fact remains.
When a character leaves a combined unit which has been blessed,
there is now two separate units, only one of it can be blessed.
How do you solve the case of a combined unit made of a dreadlord, a master and an assassin, being blessed?
What happens when the dreadlord charges singlehand out of the unit, and later, during the remaining movement, the master and the assassin separate?
My argument is that you have the choice to keep the dreadlord blessed, or the rest of the original unit.
If you kept the rest of the unit blessed instead, then, when they separate, you have the choice to keep the master or the assassin blessed.
If anyone thinks otherwise, well, could you explain it?
The BRB does define combined units p.99, in the chapter called "combined units".
I don't want to create rules.
I try to read them and to understand them.
When a character leaves a unit,
there used to be a combined unit,
there is now two separate units.
I call that splitting the combined unit, but I'm happy to change the word. Call this as you wish. The fact remains.
When a character leaves a combined unit which has been blessed,
there is now two separate units, only one of it can be blessed.
How do you solve the case of a combined unit made of a dreadlord, a master and an assassin, being blessed?
What happens when the dreadlord charges singlehand out of the unit, and later, during the remaining movement, the master and the assassin separate?
My argument is that you have the choice to keep the dreadlord blessed, or the rest of the original unit.
If you kept the rest of the unit blessed instead, then, when they separate, you have the choice to keep the master or the assassin blessed.
If anyone thinks otherwise, well, could you explain it?
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
There is no choice, there is no fact to grant you the choice, show me where it says you get a choice. No book says you get a choice, it doesn't exists. This is the argument that time and time again rule mongers/ rule lawyers express, including you Calisson, this is very uncharacteristic of even you to argue for a bend in the rules... The way GW writes rules is very explicit and they tell you everything that is permissible to do regarding a particular rule. If it is not spelled out in the rules, it does not exist. Let it go, its issues like these that destroy the fun of the game. It IS a game after all.
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Ichiyo1821
- Highborn
- Posts: 784
- Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:03 am
I have never once claimed that a character is not considered a unit.
On the case of Dreadlord, Master, Assassin- think of the process that got you there.
If your Dreadlord is joined by your master then the master becomes part of the Dreadlord's unit as you do not move units to join characters. Now in this situation you apply the joining a unit rule. The master then is a separate unit prior to joining the Dreadlord. when he joins the DL, you now refer to it as the Dreadlord's unit as it was the master who joined it. Now suppose the 3 characters are part of the unit, you still have the original unit that was joined and whichever that character is; is the unit. Do you get what I getting at? There will always be that initial unit that will be joined to create a "combined" unit and he will the the subject of rules pertaining to "unit" as a target.
page 96 CHARACTERS
Characters that have not joined another unit are treated as a separate unit of the appropriate type for all rules purpose.
read page 100. SPECIAL RULES
Unless noted in the text of the rule itself, a special rule (et all effect) applying only to the character does not apply to the unit and vice versa... On the otherhand, many spells and other effects on the units. In this case, everyone (including the character) in the combined unit will be affected.
I will get ahead of myself and refer another rule that people might come to read. page 97 under SPELLS. The blessing of the Cauldron is not a spell otherwise any rules that govern a spell applies to the COB. Again my stand is there will always be an original target of the blessing that is referred to be the unit being targeted that holds the blessing, regardless of joining or leaving characters situations.
On the case of Dreadlord, Master, Assassin- think of the process that got you there.
If your Dreadlord is joined by your master then the master becomes part of the Dreadlord's unit as you do not move units to join characters. Now in this situation you apply the joining a unit rule. The master then is a separate unit prior to joining the Dreadlord. when he joins the DL, you now refer to it as the Dreadlord's unit as it was the master who joined it. Now suppose the 3 characters are part of the unit, you still have the original unit that was joined and whichever that character is; is the unit. Do you get what I getting at? There will always be that initial unit that will be joined to create a "combined" unit and he will the the subject of rules pertaining to "unit" as a target.
page 96 CHARACTERS
Characters that have not joined another unit are treated as a separate unit of the appropriate type for all rules purpose.
read page 100. SPECIAL RULES
Unless noted in the text of the rule itself, a special rule (et all effect) applying only to the character does not apply to the unit and vice versa... On the otherhand, many spells and other effects on the units. In this case, everyone (including the character) in the combined unit will be affected.
I will get ahead of myself and refer another rule that people might come to read. page 97 under SPELLS. The blessing of the Cauldron is not a spell otherwise any rules that govern a spell applies to the COB. Again my stand is there will always be an original target of the blessing that is referred to be the unit being targeted that holds the blessing, regardless of joining or leaving characters situations.
8th Edition
W/D/L
86/1/5
New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0
9th Age
W/D/L
Vae Victis
Character kill count -182
"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig
W/D/L
86/1/5
New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0
9th Age
W/D/L
Vae Victis
Character kill count -182
"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig
-
Ichiyo1821
- Highborn
- Posts: 784
- Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:03 am
Calisson wrote:
The only thing I am arguing is that when the character leaves the combined unit, you can choose to select instead to give the blessing to the character, while the troop unit looses it (this could be useful if the character charges out).
My rationale is that when the combined unit is split, and you have two units now made from the original combined unit, there is no specific reason to favour one new unit rather than the other.
Again you bless the unit at the start of the turn where targeting rules are crystal clear. Then refer to rules regarding characters leaving units.
8th Edition
W/D/L
86/1/5
New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0
9th Age
W/D/L
Vae Victis
Character kill count -182
"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig
W/D/L
86/1/5
New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0
9th Age
W/D/L
Vae Victis
Character kill count -182
"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig
@ thenick18
I assumed that there was a choice since
- only one unit can be blessed at a time;
- where previously was a combined unit, now there are two units;
- contrary to what everyone else seems to take for granted, I see why the troop type unit should be privileged over the character type unit, they are both units after all;
- so there is a decision to make;
- no rule forcing the decision, I assume that the choice is up to the player.
@ Ichiyo1821
I agreed with almost all you said. Sorry if my previous answer did not reflect perfectly that. The only point with which I did not agree with you is below.
@ all
The only single point which makes things difficult is the following:
when the blessing is cast on a combined unit,
- you all consider that the blessed unit is {troop} with a character temporarily joining and benefitting from the blessing;
- for me, the whole combined unit is blessed, {troop and character}, considered as a single unit.
What I failed to convince you is that the blessing does not privilege the troop over the character, they are (IMO) both part of the combined unit.
I don't see much point in spending more time about this aspect, it is not game-breaking anyway. Most DE players seem happy to privilege the troop unit, their opponents will not object anyway.
Compliments to whoever managed to read all my long argumentation.
Thank you all for your patience.
I regret if some consider that I'm trying to bend the rules in order to get an undue advantage.
The spirit I'm promoting is to understand all the subtleties of the rules, and make the best use of them, rather than never using a legitimate option because of ignoring it.
I tried to quote as much as possible the rules in order to show that they were GW rules, not my imagination.
Sorry if some call that rule lawyering. But how are you supposed to tell rules in the rule forum without quoting rules?
I assumed that there was a choice since
- only one unit can be blessed at a time;
- where previously was a combined unit, now there are two units;
- contrary to what everyone else seems to take for granted, I see why the troop type unit should be privileged over the character type unit, they are both units after all;
- so there is a decision to make;
- no rule forcing the decision, I assume that the choice is up to the player.
@ Ichiyo1821
I agreed with almost all you said. Sorry if my previous answer did not reflect perfectly that. The only point with which I did not agree with you is below.
@ all
The only single point which makes things difficult is the following:
when the blessing is cast on a combined unit,
- you all consider that the blessed unit is {troop} with a character temporarily joining and benefitting from the blessing;
- for me, the whole combined unit is blessed, {troop and character}, considered as a single unit.
What I failed to convince you is that the blessing does not privilege the troop over the character, they are (IMO) both part of the combined unit.
I don't see much point in spending more time about this aspect, it is not game-breaking anyway. Most DE players seem happy to privilege the troop unit, their opponents will not object anyway.
Compliments to whoever managed to read all my long argumentation.
Thank you all for your patience.
I regret if some consider that I'm trying to bend the rules in order to get an undue advantage.
The spirit I'm promoting is to understand all the subtleties of the rules, and make the best use of them, rather than never using a legitimate option because of ignoring it.
I tried to quote as much as possible the rules in order to show that they were GW rules, not my imagination.
Sorry if some call that rule lawyering. But how are you supposed to tell rules in the rule forum without quoting rules?
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
We can't assume anything with GW. Like I previously stated, game mechanics that do tell you to make a choice, do so in the actual description of the rule itself. There is nothing in any rulebook, army book, FAQ, etc that tells you to choose what happens when a character leaves a blessed unit.
The only thing we have is on page 100. "On the other hand, many spells and magic items bestow special rules and other effects on units. In this case, everyone (including characters) in the COMBINED unit will be affected." So if the character leaves, then combined unit no longer exists. The combined unit was the unit that was blessed, well now it no longer exists, nothing is blessed anymore. I don't see any way around it. There is nothing written elsewhere that says different.
Sorry I just re-read this post, sounded redundant.
Ultimately, it sounds like something where they need to slightly errata the description of the COB to reflect the new system of units/combined units.
The only thing we have is on page 100. "On the other hand, many spells and magic items bestow special rules and other effects on units. In this case, everyone (including characters) in the COMBINED unit will be affected." So if the character leaves, then combined unit no longer exists. The combined unit was the unit that was blessed, well now it no longer exists, nothing is blessed anymore. I don't see any way around it. There is nothing written elsewhere that says different.
Sorry I just re-read this post, sounded redundant.
Ultimately, it sounds like something where they need to slightly errata the description of the COB to reflect the new system of units/combined units.