2 x 20 RXB

[Xzazzarai]

Are those units viable?
They are putting out a huge amount of shots, but since the unit is so wide, it will have some difficulties reaching the target some times. Allso, the wheel needed is much bigger than a 10-man 2x5 unit would have to make.
Allso, it's harder to fit in the deployment at the right place.

They can make a pretty scary Stand-and-shoot reaction and with shields and standard, they do ok in CC as well.

So what do you think? Is it better to runt 4 10-man units?
Why/Why not?

[Greenbay924]

Take 2 20 man units, give them shields, standard, and musician and voila, you have a unit that is crazy good at shooting, and then BAM...quick reform and they're a decent combat unit.

I run two units with that set up. If you go look at my batreps, you'll see they are always worth it. ESPECIALLY with a lore of shadow caster backing them up.

I would never consider 4 units of 10, that's just givin away victory points. Killing 10 RXB isn't too hard with some units, but taking out 20 with shields becomes a bit trickier.

[Ichiyo1821]

Yes, yes and yes. They are viable in shooting and as blocked unit used to take charges. The trick is always putting a musician in them. 40 RXBmen are the backbone of my lists now. They do incredible damage against t3 and horde units(should you need to shoot at those) and with 80 shoots eventually hits lots of 6s to take down monsters. You would have a good 2 turns even 3 rounds of shooting plus 1 or 2 SnS against most armies as people can no longer throw the usual 5 man fast cavalry or conventional warmachine/ gunline hunters as they can easily reform to a 5x4 formation or even take em straight on as 10x2 as you are mist likely to remain steadfast after taking a few wounds against such light forces that is assuming he doesn't panic or get wiped out from the SnS. Quick reform is simply amazing with them! To further encourage you to atleast try them out, best thing these 40 RXBmen did for me. in one turn of shooting they took out 9 Knights of the Realm, they took out 16 Bloodletters also in one turn. They've held a Bloodthirster, Bloodcrushers, Chaos Warriors, every single fast cavalry charge, Steamtank and a Stardragon. Their parry save is worth every point as they can shrug high strength attacks that would normally take out a spearman or even Corsairs or Black Guard. Fielding two units also dramatically affects your opponent's deployment and help you win the game through deployment alone. Excellent unit in my opinion.

[Greenbay924]

Everything stated above. Mine have been amazing at dropping enemies like flies. In one turn, they took a charge from a unit of bloodcrushers, SnS killed one, then in combat thanks to hatred killed the other two before they even got to swing.

And shields are totally worth it. For 20 points you double their survivability to enemy S3 fire, and as stated the parry in combat is nice.

[Phierlihy]

I've even seen one player fairly successful with two units of 30. Scares the pants off people!

[Drei]

Against Empire RXB are pretty useless, I use only 0-10 in a 2500 P game.

[Greenbay924]

Against Empire RXB are pretty useless, I use only 0-10 in a 2500 P game.

How? We get the same range as any of their missile troops, except crossbows. We have a higher BS, get twice as many shots. Only advantage they have is S4 vs our S3. One withering and the playing field is leveled/put into our favor.

[Drei]

S4 makes a huge difference plus they have 30" Range.
If you use our RXB against his Crossbowmen he will usually get the firstround (thx to his mass Mortars/Cannons) and hit you on 5+.

Our RXB need to move to be in range, that means 6+ to hit.

Next round he hits on a 5+ and our RXB on 5+ too. AP is useless against Crossbowmen so still he is better.

Longer Range + S4 >> Multishot + AP

IMHO Multishot is only better if a horde wants to reach your lines.

[Eglard]

Well if you want to take a missile duel between RxBs and empire crossbows, the RxBs are going to win. On the other hand there are much better targets for RxBs than crossbows, who can easily be dealt by any unit with some punch and a good movement value. RxBs are great against the popular halberdier hordes, light cavarly and even greatswords.

[Greenbay924]

If your opponent is spending all of his shooting targeting your RXB and leaving your corsairs, hydras, chariots, CoKs alone, then I do believe that's a pretty good trade off...

In a straight battle, where there's NO other variables other than two units of missile troops shooting each other, yes, they have the upper hand. But they should not be wasting shots on your archers, as you should not be wasting shots on theirs, I'd be aiming for the more important threats, like the infantry heading your way etc...(and if gunline, then yes go after the handgunners!)

[Rabidnid]

...or hit the crossbows with word of pain or chillwind, then see what happens.

[Ichiyo1821]

S4 makes a huge difference plus they have 30" Range.
If you use our RXB against his Crossbowmen he will usually get the firstround (thx to his mass Mortars/Cannons) and hit you on 5+.

Our RXB need to move to be in range, that means 6+ to hit.

Next round he hits on a 5+ and our RXB on 5+ too. AP is useless against Crossbowmen so still he is better.

Longer Range + S4 >> Multishot + AP

IMHO Multishot is only better if a horde wants to reach your lines.

Unless they have no other units on the table why would you even shoot Empire Crossbowmen??

[Meteor]

5 Shades in the flank. Bye Bye Crossbowmen.

And to stay on topic, 20 RxB with Shields and Standard trumps 2 groups of 10 RxB with Shields and (maybe) standards any day. The versatility and survivability of a block of 20 compared to two blocks of 10 is huge. Your only drawback is space consumption and maneuverability, so they're mostly better off placed at the center of your battleline.

[Drei]

Well if you want to take a missile duel between RxBs and empire crossbows, the RxBs are going to win. On the other hand there are much better targets for RxBs than crossbows, who can easily be dealt by any unit with some punch and a good movement value. RxBs are great against the popular halberdier hordes, light cavarly and even greatswords.

You are right eglard, I did a simulation and the RXB win with 67 %.
In 50% of the cases there are 9+ RXB surviving.

WOW didn't expect that, I thought they are far weaker and took only a few of them because I was afraid of Mortars too.

[Ichiyo1821]

Well if you want to take a missile duel between RxBs and empire crossbows, the RxBs are going to win. On the other hand there are much better targets for RxBs than crossbows, who can easily be dealt by any unit with some punch and a good movement value. RxBs are great against the popular halberdier hordes, light cavarly and even greatswords.

You are right eglard, I did a simulation and the RXB win with 67 %.
In 50% of the cases there are 9+ RXB surviving.

WOW didn't expect that, I thought they are far weaker and took only a few of them because I was afraid of Mortars too.

DE RXBmen do contend to be one of the best shooters amongst all core regiments and can even take on special units and rares all depending on the volume...8th made made them even better. Empire Crossbowmen? rubbish..

[Sulla]

...or hit the crossbows with word of pain or chillwind, then see what happens.

I think the problem with the comparison is that ballistic skill troops are completely outlclassed by template weapons now, meaning the difference between empire shooters and DE ones is almost moot. Go big with DE units and they are template-bait. We can't do that in return. Plus, the empire doesn't actually need to take any troops who are vulnerable to your shooting. Knights, war machines and steam tanks can all shrug off the hits and flagellants/greatswords can take cheap militia screens to make them all but immune.

Their magic is cheaper than ours and, other than the lack of power of darkness, is every bit as effective.

[Greenbay924]

...or hit the crossbows with word of pain or chillwind, then see what happens.

I think the problem with the comparison is that ballistic skill troops are completely outlclassed by template weapons now, meaning the difference between empire shooters and DE ones is almost moot. Go big with DE units and they are template-bait. We can't do that in return. Plus, the empire doesn't actually need to take any troops who are vulnerable to your shooting. Knights, war machines and steam tanks can all shrug off the hits and flagellants/greatswords can take cheap militia screens to make them all but immune.

Their magic is cheaper than ours and, other than the lack of power of darkness, is every bit as effective.

Except for those times where I got mindrazor off because I could throw 10 dice at it...

Seriously, druchii sorcery has saved me on more than one occasion.

[Xzazzarai]

Appart from Sulla (Who seems to be a real pessimist) I must say that you've convinced me!

2x20 it is! I'll try them out this weekend and probably take'em for a tournament.

[Sulla]

Heh, I think I just play against more power gamey opponents than most here. triple s5 stone throwers + all GW dwarven armies, double hellcannon, double gw khorne marauders, 20+ nurgle frenzy halberdiers, Manfred VC magic spam, I don't face any lists where shooting is remotely useful.

[Greenbay924]

Heh, I think I just play against more power gamey opponents than most here. triple s5 stone throwers + all GW dwarven armies, double hellcannon, double gw khorne marauders, 20+ nurgle frenzy halberdiers, Manfred VC magic spam, I don't face any lists where shooting is remotely useful.

My condolences to you, those look like some WAAC armies.

[Drei]

triple s5 stone throwers

Yeah I play against 3 Mortars all the time too, but it's just good to know that RXB > CB.

[Markusswe]

In general, my oppinion is that a good player makes better use of more units. While smaller units can be fragile they give a player strategic options few big doesn't.

To try to get the best out of my army I therefore play 2x10 over 1x20 rpx in all games (unless some scenariorule would benefit a single unit enough).

Here are some of the reasons...

- deployment advantage with more units
- maneuverability (flank in CC, redirect, escape from chargearc with quick reform etc)
- split target option with shooting
- less juicy targets for template wpns
- less eggs in one casket (vs panic, spells with affects vs one unit etc)
- a higher # of threats to deal with for your opponent

[Rabidnid]

In general, my oppinion is that a good player makes better use of more units. While smaller units can be fragile they give a player strategic options few big doesn't.

To try to get the best out of my army I therefore play 2x10 over 1x20 rpx in all games (unless some scenariorule would benefit a single unit enough).

Here are some of the reasons...

- deployment advantage with more units
- maneuverability (flank in CC, redirect, escape from chargearc with quick reform etc)
- split target option with shooting
- less juicy targets for template wpns
- less eggs in one casket (vs panic, spells with affects vs one unit etc)
- a higher # of threats to deal with for your opponent

I play 2x14 as there is no disadvantage to a slightly larger unit any more, and a single unit of 24+ as a bunker for my mage. The rest of the army is built around this basis.

[Greenbay924]

In general, my oppinion is that a good player makes better use of more units. While smaller units can be fragile they give a player strategic options few big doesn't.

To try to get the best out of my army I therefore play 2x10 over 1x20 rpx in all games (unless some scenariorule would benefit a single unit enough).

Here are some of the reasons...

- deployment advantage with more units
- maneuverability (flank in CC, redirect, escape from chargearc with quick reform etc)
- split target option with shooting
- less juicy targets for template wpns
- less eggs in one casket (vs panic, spells with affects vs one unit etc)
- a higher # of threats to deal with for your opponent

I see it the opposite, in my list I run 2 units of 20 with standard, musician, and shields. If I was to break them up into 4 units of 10, there's no way I'd give them a standard, as it's pretty pointless outside of the one scenario, but at the same time it's nice to have that insurance.

The statement a good general can do better with more options is an opinion, as you said. I feel a good general can do well with any amount of options, or using your units in more than one role. My RXB units are also my "anvil" units, as they usually end up being the ones to tie up my opponent. I can't count on 10 to do that. And if I'm spending my time trying to set up flank charges with a unit of 10, I'm using them for what they are meant for: shooting.

I also find the argument that it gives you more targets to shoot at funny, as concentrated firepower is definitely the way to go. How many times do you end up shooting all of them (or the majority) at the same target? I usually find myself shooting both squads of 20 at the same target.

The point about the warmachine templates is a good one, no argument there, as the smaller template means they need to be pretty accurate to do damage. (though a centered template takes out just as many from a unit 5x2 as it does a unit 10x2).

As far as a higher number of "threats" goes, I played a guy that ran a single unit of 10 high elf archers (I know, not the same thing) that I just ignored until the last turn, when I wiped them out with shooting.

Anyway, they both have a role. I've often thought of taking a unit of 10 for 100 points just to put out on a flank to gun down fast cav (which they should be more than capable of) But if I want to shore up the center of my battle line, it's got to be units of 20.

[Falconrider]

I currently use units of 10 with musician but can see the benefits of fielding them 20 strong.

In the end both ways are just as viable. If you prefer your rxb to shoot then be in combat as greenbay mentioned then 20 is the best option.

If you plan to keep them out of combat and their main role is shooting then 10 is better.