Hydra

Blondshade · Post by **Blondshade** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:43 pm

Hydra should be less points. 150 MAX. He isn't that good any never gets his points back. Mine always dies. How can I use it better or anything.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:54 pm

Too much? The hydra is one of the most underpriced monsters in the game. He's probably worth 210, possibly much more. If you want examples of true overpriced monsters, open up the beastman armybook.

How is yours dying? To magic? Shhoting? Combat?

Masked jackal · Post by **Masked jackal** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:54 pm

This is clearly a problem on your end, if anything they should be *more* expensive. My Hydra sometimes makes his points back with a single breath-weapon!

Kula · Post by **Kula** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:23 pm

Mine took down a unit of 8 chaos trolls single handed the other day, killed 5, the last 3 fled. Yes, they can't regenerate after the breath attack, but still.

It's a rare game where my hydra does not bring it's points back. 220 points like it cost in the 6. edition seems more fitting.

Ulric darksoul · Post by **Ulric darksoul** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:49 pm

mine eats swordmasters for breakfast and dinnes on other armies special troops xD

it's always how you use it... and the die rolls you have... maybe you should change dices?

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:54 pm

Some quick tips:

Don't charge it in unsupported. Yes, 7 hatred attacks at S5 followed by 6 hatred attacks at S3 with AP are very nice, but won't kill a bit unit by themselves, even with thunderstomp and breath attack. If you're going to charge it into a big unit, make sure it is supported by another unit in a combi charge (ideally from the flank or rear, but the front will do too).

Minimise the amount of time that it is exposed to enemy missiles and magic, particularly fiery ones. Get it across the board and into strategic places (ie send him up your flank and have him roll along your opponent's units from the side: that makes it harder for them to shoot him and gets him into a good place for combining charges with another of your units into the front).

If you know that you are up against an opponent who is going to bring a ton of shooting and/or magic, particularly fiery stuff, then consider not taking one. For example, if you are playing against a high elf opponent who usually takes big blocks of archers or seaguard with the banner of flamingness, along with a dragon mage and cadryan, it might be best to leave the hydra at home - he's not realisitcally going to make it across the board.

Blondshade · Post by **Blondshade** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:03 pm

I always take two. But flame banners and shooting from my opponents usually kill it. Cannons and trebuchets and such. how can i help it get across the battlezone other than a cauldron blessing?

And what are good units to support charge cause it also dies in CC not really magic phase. What spells can really hurt it? it is good vs magic.

Post by **Layne** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:09 am

That would be a question of what else is in your army list; and from there, what to either change, or to do with what you have. In any case, it's not an Ideas forum topic. So let this go, ask again in Army Lists or Tactics.

Post by **Rork** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:14 pm

I'm moving this to tactics.

Oh, and blondshade, back up your arguments properly. Personal experience alone does not mean that a specific unit is good or bad. That can be affected by the ability of the owning player.

I'm also keeping an eye on this thread.
______________________________________________________

Mod's note.

So, this thread belongs now to the tactics forum.
From the initial post, "Hydra should be less points. 150 MAX. He isn't that good any never gets his points back. Mine always dies. How can I use it better or anything.", the first part, about the points value, has been debated enough.

No more discussion about the point value of the hydra (I would just erase it). If you want to discuss that specific point, start a new thread in the Druchii discussion forum.

I leave this thread open for the second part, about how to use better the hydra.

Thank you for your understanding.

Calisson

Minaras · Post by **Minaras** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:42 pm

While the easier access to fire damage for all armies, have made it more vaulnurable, the fact that there is no longer +1 to hit large targets with shooting is a big boost. And with TLoS, witch elves can give it hard cover easily, even against WM's on a hill most the time. That you can see and charge through forest now, also makes it easier to keep in cover while still being able to charge/Breath. I'll gladly risk the DT test.

All in all i feel my hydras are at least as safe as in 7th, against most opponents.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:19 pm

Don't forget that being Initiative 2 means that even if charges, it can get smacked down before it has a chance to breath, attack or thunderstomp. Often it can survive the first round of combat, but for Round 2 a wounded Hydra will often go down before it can do anything else again.

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:01 pm

personal opinion:still has a lot of flaws, and is one of the few units that uses a high S in our army. Esp since 8th came out. I mean with the increase of Fire in game evens a LOT out.

I think it's funny. Recently someone noted that it's a very "All win or all lose Unit" and that you can play 5 games where it charges, gets ripped apart in a couple hits, but that one game where it SHINES? ooooh suddenly the DE are OP and you should take 100points away as Comp!

(Rough Paraphrase)

Minaras · Post by **Minaras** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:41 pm

Tethlis wrote:Don't forget that being Initiative 2 means that even if charges, it can get smacked down before it has a chance to breath, attack or thunderstomp. Often it can survive the first round of combat, but for Round 2 a wounded Hydra will often go down before it can do anything else again.

Well, yea. Once in CC, they are much more likely to suffer multiple wounds before striking any blows. But it does take some heat off the unit they charge with(optimally),and many still prefer to get a good CR from chopping up softer elves.

I usually use my Breath weapon out of CC actually.

Xzazzarai · Post by **Xzazzarai** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:45 am

@ OP: Lolololol

Sry, I had to...

Carolus · Post by **Carolus** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:58 pm

L1qw1d wrote:personal opinion:still has a lot of flaws, and is one of the few units that uses a high S in our army. Esp since 8th came out. I mean with the increase of Fire in game evens a LOT out.

I think it's funny. Recently someone noted that it's a very "All win or all lose Unit" and that you can play 5 games where it charges, gets ripped apart in a couple hits, but that one game where it SHINES? ooooh suddenly the DE are OP and you should take 100points away as Comp!

(Rough Paraphrase)

I agree 100%

Because of its unmodified S value I see it as a must in all my army lists. Makes it predictable to my regular opponents, but even when they field tailored anti-hydra units it can still make its worth by keeping an entire flank occupied for several turns.

Then again, it's very discouraging to see it succumb to magic and shooting on the 1st turn

Blondshade · Post by **Blondshade** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:20 am

L1qw1d wrote:personal opinion:still has a lot of flaws, and is one of the few units that uses a high S in our army. Esp since 8th came out. I mean with the increase of Fire in game evens a LOT out.

I think it's funny. Recently someone noted that it's a very "All win or all lose Unit" and that you can play 5 games where it charges, gets ripped apart in a couple hits, but that one game where it SHINES? ooooh suddenly the DE are OP and you should take 100points away as Comp!

(Rough Paraphrase)

Just wondering what you personally feel like a couple of it's flaws are?
We all have different opponents what do they use against it that you hate because of it's flaws.

Mine #1 is dragon princes with flame banner, or bretonia lord with HKB, or horde ushabti and tomb swarms

Xzazzarai · Post by **Xzazzarai** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:07 am

Let's just get this clear: The Hydra is one of the strongest units in the game for it's points.
It Can be killed, sure, if you know how to do it and have the tools. Ie, high str flaming attacks.

But to all of you who says that the Hydra is Not too good or something like that - try to play Against a dual-Hydra DE army with some other army with limited access to the tools needed.
And I guarantee that you'll change your opinion about the DE Hydra...

Masked jackal · Post by **Masked jackal** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:18 pm

The Hydra only really gets chopped up by those with high strength. I usually throw it into a horde of regular troops with S3, and their attacks just bounce off of it.

Blondshade · Post by **Blondshade** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:29 pm

Masked Jackal wrote:The Hydra only really gets chopped up by those with high strength. I usually throw it into a horde of regular troops with S3, and their attacks just bounce off of it.

What units are most notorious for you guys that kills your hydras a lot?

One time I have had mine killed by a couple swordmasters.
Also silver helms cause me problems.

Post by **Calisson** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:31 pm

Bret's peasant bowmen with flames...

Leduwob · Post by **Leduwob** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:40 pm

Skinks with poison blowpipes...

Flash29 · Post by **Flash29** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:52 pm

the flaming dwarven cannon, or any cannon for that matter, never had a succesfull regen or under 5 wounds.

my own dice

1 have 1 wound on hydra i get a total of 5 wounds from ghouls(st3) so 4+ as i save one 4+ regen I save 0 dead hydra

Blondshade · Post by **Blondshade** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:18 am

flash29 wrote:the flaming dwarven cannon, or any cannon for that matter, never had a succesfull regen or under 5 wounds.

my own dice

1 have 1 wound on hydra i get a total of 5 wounds from ghouls(st3) so 4+ as i save one 4+ regen I save 0 dead hydra

oh man sounds like you need some new dice. i have dice of all colors to help. like all from dark blue to green to yellow and purple. only colors i dont have are black pink and medium blue. i have baby blue.

But anyways more on topic. one time my hydra died from some of our own kind! dark elf spearmen in horde formation. he hit me with plague of rust which i let go off earlier in the game. I stopped the one that gives you magical flaming attacks, the name escapes me. But he ended up dropping my hydra.

Hate that new flame banner. Seems like everyone has it!

Dutchoven · Post by **Dutchoven** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:50 am

Honestly when I started playing with the DE army I was told hey, the hydra is a great unit and if you run two thats cheesy. At first It was getting annihilated by round 2. I was like WTF? But then I realized, hey this is my tank, he is absorbing all the damage so that I can get other units into place ( since we're elves and rely heavily on strategies). So now when I bring the hydra(every time) he runs along the flanks and worries the opponent because they either load up on the flanks leaving another area vulnerable or they ignore him and he wrecks havoc on their flanks. Put a unit of BG right behind them with a COB blessing and banner of murder. have the hydra move up max inches, BG right behind and you will see who gets more attention. Its highly unlikely that 13 attacks will out preform 21 from 7 wide and KB or 28 7 wide with extra attack BG.

To make it more fun if you have the model, slap a DL on a dragon with crown of command and some other magic items along with the hydra. The opponent has a choice, get ravaged by the dragon or ravaged by the hydra and if that wasnt enough that lvl 2 or 3 sorc with dark magic is probably doing something nasty herself.

[llct]kain · Post by **[llct]kain** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:46 pm

1) Discussion about the tools
Yes, the hydra can be killed. It can easly be killed by the right unit.
BUT first of all there are very few units that cost less than 200 points that could do the job AND we are masters of movement so should be able to avoid the bad match up for the hydra (exception is here the Dwarfen gunline -but here we strugle with all troops).

2) How to best use it
Ensure proper match ups and do not treat as a tank. With M6 the beast is quite fast and it is no shame to hide behind a house/hill to advance in T2 from the side for a big flaming with full strength (even T4 hordes will melt away) or just threaten to charge a flank. If you esnure few return attacks either by going for side/rear or by combicharging with a block of your own the hydra will make the day.