help vs ogres

Druchiinoob · Post by **Druchiinoob** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:54 am

I have a new oponent that plays ogres. Havnt played yet but ive been watching ogre vs DE battle reports on youtube. I cannot seem to find one where the DE win. Has anyone had any luck against ogres? seems a heavy shooting list does nothing

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:01 pm

ogres arent too bad. bring lots of fast units to delay him and shoot him. witches and BG are incredibly strong and can massacre a whole unit of ogres before they even get to attack.

it is probably best if you play first, and then ask more specific questions when/if you notice problems you run in to.

Captain shiny · Post by **Captain shiny** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:20 pm

I've got a friend who plays ogres and now insists that they don't work at all in 8th ed since I've beaten him about 8 times out of 8.
Practical advice time;
1. Shades are a nightmare for ogre players, particularly with rending star/manbane assassins.
2. Units with plenty of attacks work well too due to ogres poor armour ie; corsairs, witches, horde formation spears.
3. Shadow magic is nightmarish for them, particularly when combined with the above two points.
Heavy static shooting against ogres will struggle since with their speed, they can be in charge range of it quite quickly. Other than that, I can't think of much, obviously I could be missing some tricks that they have but those are the key methods I use to take down ogres.

Tmarichards · Post by **Tmarichards** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:54 pm

I've got a couple of reports where I've taken them out, both of them have come down to judicious use of Mindrazor though so you can't take too much out of them, but they might be worth a watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8pnvjYAwyo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg3IZB3gXLI

Something I am coming round to more and more in a lot of my lists is a second level 4 on either Metal or Death, and Death is winning out. Double initiative auto-kill spells will certainly give ogres pause for thought.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:07 pm

Massed fighting infantry is the way to go imo.

Big blocks of witch elves (poison is a god send)
Big blocks Executioners (preferably with Death Hag BSB)

Avoid taking units that have limited killing potential. A unit of 11 CoKS, for example, can be risky because even if you hit and kill with all of their attacks, that's still just 11 wounds - 4 ogres. Against a big unit, that's nothing.

Take some manoueverable and fast troops because he's bound to have quite a bit of irksome shooting, such as chariot cannons and leadbelchers.

Dimitriosb · Post by **Dimitriosb** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:11 pm

Hi

A couple of things about Ogres

1)don't take dreadlord or sorcerer on Pegasus and leave them out of unit.The ogre player probably will have a slaughtermaster with greedy fist and the lore of the great maw.The lore has a magic missile that causes 2d6 s2 hits with no armor saves.So if the lonely sorcerer is hit 4 times it looses 4 magic levels and if the dreadlord is hit,he takes no armor saves and PoK doesn't help him much because the hits are only s2
2)every ogre list has one or two Ironblasters.They can kill a cauldron with shooting and harpies can't hurt them
3)Leadbelchers are perfect against D.E.No penalty for multiple shots,or for moving,they always hit on 4 or 5,wound on 3 and are armor piercing so you don't take saves
4)Mournfang cavalry with dragonhide banner on the charge is perfect against witches
5)Every ogre player hate purple sun and pit of shades and there is a reason for that.Use them,they can win you the game.Just don't expect to make any friends.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:24 pm

Hi Dimitrios,

Welcome to D.Net

Against certain setups the magic missile spell will, but not against all of them. Cloak of HG combined with a 4+ ward save talisman, for example, will protect a pegasus fighting hero from that spell entirely: makes the hits just S1 and gives a 4+ ward save against any hits that do wound. So, yes, the standard Dreadlord Pendant combo won't work...but honestly, good, that will force players to use more creative setups.

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:55 am

about 2)

Yes they could, but he will wound on 4+, and a 4+ ward save on that, so if he hits, he causes on average 0,875 wounds, and thus it would take him on average 4,57 hits from a cannonball to kill it. If he shoots at the cauldron (that can be hidden behind hills and such in a pinch) he will have to spend the entire game shooting at it to kill it. also it means he is not shooting at your hydra who could then potentially reach combat with full wounds making a nutritious paste of the ogres its his S5 breath weapon (preferably in a combined charge with another unit). I wouldnt worry too much about losing the cauldron, though you are absolutely right that harpies are best left doing other stuff against ogres (march blocking can actually work, not to mention redirecting)

About 3)

They are good indeed, but they still usually hit on 5s, so a unit of 4 (seems very common) would get off 14 shots on average, hitting 4,7 of them, wounding with 3,1 of them. i can stand losing 3,1 guys from any unit. its is not THAT scary either. also, remember that you can use harpies to screen with, making him hit on 7s (or 6s if he shoots the harpies). thats not too scary.

about 4)

the banner is used by the ogre holding it, hence it is used in initiative order, hence the witches will get to hit first the first round of combat, its is the NEXT round where the witches will strike last.

mournfangs are still very very good against witches, but as an example from the last i played ogres (and lost, lol) my 24 witches was charged by 3 (remaining) mournfangs, but i caused 7 wounds after saves, thus killing two of them before they got to do anything but impact hits. since the standard bearer is killed before the champion, he couldnt even use his flag. Still, only one mournfang is not too intimidating to fight. Witches will lose the first round due to impact hits, but they will be steadfast (though they lose frenzy QQ!) but they should come out on top in the end provided the mournfang unit is of a similar point value (4 vs 24 for example).

all that being said, i do NOT recommend fighting mournfangs with witches. BG will fare better, but id say you should kill them with shooting or magic. they ARE very scary indeed.

cherios
/T

Dimitriosb · Post by **Dimitriosb** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:20 am

7 wounds?Are u sure,that you played it right?If the witches don't have armor piercing banner,the Mournfang saves at 2 and they reroll ones,because of the banner.And after that you have parry saves from the ironfist (special rule).Also with mournfangs u take no champion,because u want the banner last

I agree that killing the cauldron with shooting isn't easy but with an ironblaster (or two) it is possimple

With my Ogres (and my D.E) I usually play against H.E and Teclis and I can tell you that the only thing I am scared is magic.Use magic to low their toughness and shoot them,use pit of shades,ocram mindrazor etc

Also the ogre player will probably have hellheart so be prepared to mistcast and loose one magic phase at some point.

PS:thanks for the welcome.Nice to be here

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:42 pm

naturally the witches have the AP banner... and a hag with manbane helps too. i checked the maths and the average dmg output is closer to 6 (with no cauldron buff), but its not far off.

Druchiinoob · Post by **Druchiinoob** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:38 pm

Well i played 2 games vs ogres yesterday. won one lost one realised after the one I lost i forgot i had a second sorceress in the list that i didnt deploy. May have changed the outcome as my main sorceress misscast like 3 times the first i rolled the worse one but she didnt get sucked out thankfully. Also learnt the lesson do not charge witch elves at iron guts in a building unless you can get mindrazor off. Fluff the 30 attacks even with hatred and poison. still held them in the building long enough to mop most of the other things up.

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:56 pm

that must have been a bit bad luck with the witches tbh. 30 witch attacks (assuming banner of murder) should do over 11 wounds on average against ironguts the first turn. thats almost 4 dead ogres. unless he has a really big unit he wont last long :twisted:

Druchiinoob · Post by **Druchiinoob** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:29 pm

yeah first round of combat i had about 18-20 hits (3 of were poison) than to wound I rolled only 3 wounds . they had heavy armour so with the armour peircing they had a 6+ save he rolled 4 6's so only took 2 wounds. next round had no frenzy and no hatred so only 20 attacks.

Geist · Post by **Geist** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:36 am

Two things make orges cry, exe axe and banner of hag graef.

Killingblowtotheface · Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:08 am

Recently played against ogres myself. He had a horde of 18 Ogres (If I remember correctly) with a Slaughter master etc with 3 of those cavalry dudes, his Cannon of stupidly crazy power and 2 sabre tusk tiger things. Sorry my memory is gone today so I can't remember the names.

I had a Horde of 50 Spears with BSB and the Banner of Unbreakable +1 Combat Res. 20 Crossbows. 6 Shades. And a LVL 4 on a peg and a Hydra.

Result…

Ogre Horde killed. His cavalry 1 dead and 1 on 1 wound and 1 on 3. 1 Dead Cat and his cannon dead in round 1.

I lost…

4 Spear Elves.

Crossbows are the best thing ever. 40 Shots at the cannon wiped it out with ease and then I dumped negative hexes and took his ogres down -2S and the hydra caused them fear.

Hordes with archer back up is like a god send. Malekith was proud of me that day!

P.S. His MAW back fired and I placed it on his cavalry. He made a lot of bad decisions. I miscast twice! But rolled 7’s both times! XD

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:08 am

@KillingBlowToTheFace: The Banner of Nagarythe isn't needed on your spears - with 50 spears you should always have steadfast and a banner that costs nearly 130 points on a BSB who is limited to a 4+ armour save is just free points waiting to be targeted in combat.

Killingblowtotheface · Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:14 am

Very good point mate…

Never actually thought about the. In all honesty, I only came back to the game a year ago and only started playing about 6 months ago so things like that are a massive help so thanks! Must really remember this steadfast malarkey.

Still, regardless, I think I did pretty good

I noticed you said 4+. I had him down as 3+ Heavy armour, Sea Dragon Cloak and Sheild. Am I wrong there?

Blondshade · Post by **Blondshade** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:04 pm

i would get max out bolt throwers for rank pen. god send that will slaughter our foes. if you use them right they shouldnt die because ogres dont have shades or hawks like high elves do.

cold one knights are brutal do to the speed at which they can move and kill. a dead ogre is a dead one that cant kill your guys, always remember that.

harpies are good at disrupting battle lines, take some of them to cover troops too

you know what to do for magic, shadow or fire. i use file against ogres personally but you will only know why once you try it.

Post by **Dalamar** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:18 pm

Bolt Throwers suck so bad that it's not even worth mentioning. Use the points on crossbowmen.

Cold One Knights are bad in protracted combats (they lose a lot of their power after charge) and Ogres excel in protracted combats (multiple wounds mean it takes more to kill one, and 3 attacks from second rank means they have a LOT of them). Those two don't mesh together.
Ogres also have Gnoblar trappers which are a bane of all heavy cavalry... and are silly cheap.

Harpies are always good, less so against ogres but there's always a use for them.

Ogre T is 4, Fire Strength is 4... you're going for 50/50 chances of doing a wound on multi-wound targets. Ogre Initiative is pitiful. Their Leadership is average. Death Magic (especially Purple Sun) and Shadow Magic (Pit of Shades and Penumbral Pendulum) will scare the Great Maw out of them.

And never, ever, forget about Witch Elves against Ogres. Multiple poisoned attacks will make those nearly unarmored ogres weep.

Blondshade · Post by **Blondshade** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:23 pm

Dalamar wrote:Bolt Throwers suck so bad that it's not even worth mentioning. Use the points on crossbowmen.

Cold One Knights are bad in protracted combats (they lose a lot of their power after charge) and Ogres excel in protracted combats (multiple wounds mean it takes more to kill one, and 3 attacks from second rank means they have a LOT of them). Those two don't mesh together.
Ogres also have Gnoblar trappers which are a bane of all heavy cavalry... and are silly cheap.

Harpies are always good, less so against ogres but there's always a use for them.

Ogre T is 4, Fire Strength is 4... you're going for 50/50 chances of doing a wound on multi-wound targets. Ogre Initiative is pitiful. Their Leadership is average. Death Magic (especially Purple Sun) and Shadow Magic (Pit of Shades and Penumbral Pendulum) will scare the Great Maw out of them.

And never, ever, forget about Witch Elves against Ogres. Multiple poisoned attacks will make those nearly unarmored ogres weep.

did you play against the new ogres yet. you seem to be belittling them, thats what looses game imo. sounds like you only played 7th ogres, new ones are nasty

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:15 pm

I noticed you said 4+. I had him down as 3+ Heavy armour, Sea Dragon Cloak and Sheild. Am I wrong there?

Nope, you're right - my bad

I play with a combat character on foot so rarely these days!

Cold73 · Post by **Cold73** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:42 pm

Just had a conversation with a friend of mine who had a field day with his ogres slaughtering high elves.

He told me about one unit which scared me a bit.
6-8 man eaters...all with a brace of ogre guns...
sniper & poison special rule.

in a 2000 point game this would expend his special choices for that army.
In terms of loosing regular forces these don't really scare me all that much....but i would hate loosing my supreme sorceress to them if he gets to go first.

Any advice to get these out of the fight asap and or give some extra protection to my sorceress.

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:46 pm

they are not THAT scary tbh. they look great on paper, but the point sink is absolutely huge. just place a unit of 5 harpies between them and the sorceress and he should be at -4 to hit (long range, hard cover, multiple shots and "snipe") hence he can only use the single shot if he wants the poison to be in effect. he will then cause ~1 wound per turn on your sorceress (minus whatever save she might have) and he is having a ~400 point unit doing nothing else. its not that scary, though it can be a pain. Just do not underestimate them in combat. they will have 5 WS5 S5 attacks each. best be careful.

I think many ogre players were super excited by this combo when it was first invented (much like the death fist) but are moving away from it due to its relatively small impact on the game for a very big investment (much like the death fist).

Xzazzarai · Post by **Xzazzarai** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:33 pm

Get a Level 4 mage.
Select Lore of Death.
Cast Purple Sun in every phase with all your dice.

= Win.

If you fear sniper-poison maneaters - Get a wardsave and/or deploy her in a forest and/or get the ring of darkness and just smile when he tries to snipe her.
Then smile even wider when Your magic phase begins...

Azimyth · Post by **Azimyth** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:29 am

Cold73 wrote:...
6-8 man eaters...all with a brace of ogre guns...
sniper & poison special rule.
...

TBH I'd be more worried about ones with scout and stubborn and great weapons/Extra hand weapon. Rolls up your flank without a problem