What units do we have that can stand up against blood knight

Sun-tzu · Post by **Sun-tzu** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:39 am

What do we have that can stand against blood knights?

I know the best is not to get into combat with them, but if we did which is the best to use against them?

I was thinking black guard with the banner of murder or razor banner.

Since blood knights are ws5 t4 2+ and 2 attacks 3 for frenzy str 5 7 on charge and initiative 5.

Your looking at 21 strength 7 attacks when you get charged.

Black guard are initiative 6 so will hit first are ws5 and are warrior elite. So if your 7 wide. You will have 21 attacks statistically 15 hits (with rerolls) 7 wounds they lose 3-4 on average.

Blood knights will hit 10 times and will wound/kill around 8-9. Horses will do another 2-3 hits and another 1-2 wounds. Total dead 9-11

You lose but are stubborn 9 so should hold and might win during the attrition?
With the best chance since warrior elite let's you reroll every turn.

I did the judgement without magic or cauldron bonuses.

Post by **Dalamar** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:50 am

How many Blood Knights?

A nice block of Executioners will kill them easily.

If your 10 attacks hit, and 8-9 kill... You should still have at least 2 full ranks of Executioners striking back. Your calculation 5 wide 2 deep knights with a champion.

So max 7 Executioners can strike, lets say they might've been Horde but are not anymore.
15 attacks at 4+ is around 11 hits, likely 2 killing blows, about 7 dead knights. Add cauldron blessing for additional attack and there is no attrition. 10 knights are dead.

If you went crazy with Hag BSB then the Blood Knights didn't even realize what hit them.

Sun-tzu · Post by **Sun-tzu** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:03 am

Yes im thinking 10 blood knights with champ.

Thanks for the input dalmar so you think at least 28 vanilla executioners would be enough? 7x4 to deal with the causalties and make sure you still have 2 ranks of 7 hitting. If you run horde it wouldnt really matter since he will kill so many before hits back?

Senluthan · Post by **Senluthan** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:42 am

Well the exce unit in general is better in horde formation, also if you put em 7 wide, only the 2 front rows can attack. so that would only be 14 attacks. Still enough to do a good slaughter and probably win the battle...

Tmarichards · Post by **Tmarichards** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:44 am

Corsairs with Killing Blow should take off most of them.

Lokil · Post by **Lokil** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:45 am

corsairs with killing blow kind of seem like a gamble to me. But they are indeed a hundred and something points cheaper than said executioner horde.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:59 am

- Exec horde with Death Hag BSB with standard of HG.
- Lore of metal will also take care of them pretty easily.
- Hellebron on a Manticore will do the trick nicely too. 7-9 attacks at S10 with hatred that strike before them, followed by 4-5 attacks at S5 with KB that strike simultaneously. Not necessarily the best way, but another option nonetheless.

Lostshadow · Post by **Lostshadow** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:09 am

Errr how is it possible to give corsairs killing blow?

There are no DE banners that grant killing blow

They cant take gifts of khaine

There are no Banners in the rulebook that give killing blow

What am i missing?

Fingol23 · Post by **Fingol23** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:21 am

lostshadow wrote:Errr how is it possible to give corsairs killing blow?

There are no DE banners that grant killing blow

They cant take gifts of khaine

There are no Banners in the rulebook that give killing blow

What am i missing?

The Cauldron of Blood

Post by **Dalamar** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:33 am

You're missing the most probably best force multiplier in the game.

Lostshadow · Post by **Lostshadow** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:29 am

Really? What a waste of points, if the hags are killed which is easy from one round of shooting thats then wasted a whole load of points.
Its 4+ ward wont save it from 30 shots from HE archers, and a 3+ ward against magic with its magic resistance and 4+ ward save is nothing when its hags will easily die from a 2D6 spell.
Total waste of points, possbily the easiest thing in the DE army to kill seeing as its larger than other units it can be targetted over units using true line of sight rules, even with a hero joining to boost the ward save, its a total waste, Ive been roll testing to see and almost every time with 30 shots its killed in 1 turn and thats taking into account the 5-6 to hit the crew too

Demetrius · Post by **Demetrius** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:34 am

Lost Shadow, the COB is very hard to kill... Its T10 against all missiles with 4 wounds and a 4+ ward, if 30 archers are killing it in one turn, you are having very bad luck indeed.

It is also super hard to kill in combat as it is a warmachine so has limited models who can target it, it has a 4+ and 4 wounds, with a but load of attacks, and you cant stomp/thunderstomp it.

Lostshadow · Post by **Lostshadow** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:37 am

It doesnt have T10, it says the cauldron cant be damaged as it has no stats.
You only need to cause 2 wounds to the crew.
30 shots from arrows
Lets say half hit 15
half wound 7-8 wounds
50/50 chance to pass ward save
3-4 wounds on average from one round of shooting will fail a ward save

2 hags die.

Cauldron destroyed.

Easy kill as you only need to kill the 2 hags

Sun-tzu · Post by **Sun-tzu** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:39 am

Lostshadow: you forget it's considered a warmachine now and it is toughness 10 so archers and most magic missiles will only wound a cauldron on a 6. Then a 4+ ward save it's has to take 4 wounds to die. Against magic missiles the save becomes 2+ due to magic resistance making a ward save better by what the resistance is if I'm not mistaken. No one ever engages my cauldron so I don't remember lol.

Demetrius · Post by **Demetrius** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:41 am

It has been FAQ'd mate, its a T10 warmachine. You dont roll a 5-6 to hit crew like in 7th ed either. And they have to kill the Death Hag, not just the two attendants, to destroy the COB.

30 shots from arrows.
15 hits.
2.5 wounds.
1.25 get through ward.
= COB lives.

And thats if the archers havnt moved (assuming you should always be at long range).

Lostshadow · Post by **Lostshadow** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:43 am

Ok I see it now, what about iniative tests for things like pit of shades though?

Doesnt the war machine instant fail as it has I of 0 , no ward save as it doesnt do any damage its an instant death spell

Its better than I thought I guess

and why is the save 2+?

4+ ward
Magic resistance 1

That increases the war by +1

that would be 3+ not 2+

Tmarichards · Post by **Tmarichards** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:20 am

The Cauldron of Blood is easily the single best choice in the Dark Elf book.

It does auto-die to things like Dwellers or Pit, but as long as you play properly you can stop this happening most of the time.

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:43 am

sounds almost like trolling to me

I was not a fan of CoB till very recently, but it is insanely good tbh. try it out! it can turn any one of our units in to something very nasty, and it even help protecting our fragile elites when you give them a 5+ ward. It may not look too sweet at a glance, but it is well worth the points. believe me, or try it yourself

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:50 am

Not so much trolling, I think, as having made a snap judgement without reading the rules through thoroughly (or indeed any of the gazillion posts about the Cauldron on here) and then being reluctant to move when queried.

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:39 am

I always go with the cauldron. The only times I loose it, is when I do mistakes, or my opponent goes all in with irresistable force on a spell that autokills warmachines. 225 pts for the safest spot in the army for a BSB that should be somewhere in the middle of your army anyways... I wouldn't want it any other way.

As for taking down the blood knights, use redirectors to get them out of position and use reaper bolt throwers, and/or crossbows to take them from distance (if you go for some shooting in your list). His good save will make it hard to pluck those down with just a bit of crossbowshooting though... Also, assassin with shurikens and manbane works wonders against them (Took down 8 chaos knights for me with a handful of shades yesterday).

Executioners works against them as well if you manage to get them into position... I still don't field those in my army though as they cost much and is way too situational.

What lores are you going for in your army? Metal is the best to take down those knights for sure, but with shadow, you can debuff them enough to be able to wound them more easily, or make them deal less wounds by reducing strength.

A big block of witch elves with banner of murder might deal enough damage to them as well, but it's a hard one... At least, with the cauldron close by, you can hold them enganged for more than one round.

Sun-tzu · Post by **Sun-tzu** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:06 pm

Thanks for the advice guys. This is part of a store campaign and rules are characters can not change. I have a lv4 dark, lv2 shadow, hag bsb with cauldron, and the peg master. Everything else in the list I can change to my liking. I can even drop a character for points but I like my character load out.

Question about banner of blood keep. It say the unit receives a 4+ ward save vs ranged attack. I think that's is any shooting and magic missiles. Most of the vc in my area believe it's anything other than cc. Since cc has no range. Example black horror is a black hope that forms over a unit. I say since it forms on them it's not a ranged attack. Vc say since it has 18" range it's a range attack. Anyone know where I can find correct ruling?

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:36 pm

Ranged attacks are done in the shooting phase.

As far as I know, the banner was against ranged attacks and magic missiles earlier. If it's worded only against ranged now, it has lost some of its benefits. I would especially not count it against black horror, pit of shades and such for sure... those are magic attacks.

Kaleth stinson · Post by **Kaleth stinson** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:00 pm

As the with all expensive and frenzied unit, there is only one real way to handle them. HARPIES!!!

Use those girls(?) to redirect the unit, while you kill the rest of his army.

Infekted · Post by **Infekted** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:07 am

I've played a guy who loves his blood knights hardcore a lot of times. And to be honest, out of most lists we are very able to deal with it. Add the fact that if you take out his blood knight bus then that's a massive chunk of his points gone.

Execs can work nice. But I have also had great success with many attack units with killing blow from CoB.
Frenzied AHW Corsairs are good for it. So are witches. Witches have the benefit of I6, but are held back due to poison. Poison causes you to miss out on potential killing blows, and still has to get thru their armour and regen. Which doesn't have good odds. So it's a bit of a toss up. The witches will cause less casualties, but will probably take less in return due to hitting first.
Generally it's a case of whatever multi-attack unit is best situationally placed to do it.

Normally with knights its very important to get the charge on them. But with your t3, and at best 5+ armour troops against blood knights the difference between S5 and S7 is irrelevent. They are wounding on 2s and ignoring any armour you have in either case.

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:12 pm

Actually, witch elves with +1 attack from cauldron and AP banner should do... okay. I would rather go with that than KB Corsairs (As I never manage to get a 6 on my wounding for some reason anyways).

Since the blood knights only have 2+ saves, it means they suddenly have several 3+ saves to make, especially as the witch elves manages to get quite many wounds through usually (poison and reroll to hit that becomes poison as well), and I6 is pretty good to have.

Executioners would be best against them in these cases, taking heavy casualities first before chopping the knights down.