80 WE Archers

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Saddleskull
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80 WE Archers

Post by Saddleskull »

I'm playing against a WE player who fields around 80 archers..

Ways i intend to deal with them....
1. Dark magic - chill wind
2. my supreme sorc with lifetaker and sac dagger (stick her in a unit of xbowmen (2 units x 20)
3. cok's to charge (unit of 10)
4. 6 shades to pepper them from the flanks
5. my main hammer (wiches and blackguard) followed by couldron down the centre to deal with his cc guys (dryads and a few wardancers)
6. master on peg - to charge into their lines
7. Hydra moving down flanks

A reliable strategy? i feel i need to engage them as soon as i can befpre they shoot me to peices!
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Post by Red... »

Consider adding some further tools:

- Corsairs (4+ versus shooting is very helpful).
- Ring of Darkness. A god send versus shooty armies.
- Cold one Chariots (T5 with a 3+ save and 4 wounds is very resilient versus shooting)

Personally I'd drop the CoKs - massed bowfire = way too many saving rolls = lots of 1s.
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Post by Tmarichards »

6 shades will die almost immediately, against Wood Elves they're just free points. The hydra is also free points.

If he doesn't have Waywatchers, any of the common Pegasus builds will roll over him.

Your best bet is to deploy the Corsairs around 15 wide, ward them up and then stack the rest of your army behind them for cover. The Corsairs will die fairly quickly, but their main purpose here is to deliver the rest of your army to him so that you can get some points back in the later stages of the game.
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Post by Lord tsunami »

i dont concider the hydra to be "free points". even if he should have flaming attacks (does he?) the hydra still have T5 and a 4+ save. that will take a lot of fire, fire that otherwise would be spent on your fragile units such as black guard, and if he kills it? so what? he spent a million arrows on bringing down a 175p model :)

shades could probably be left at home though. they die a bit too easily to bow fire, even if they can indeed dish out a lot of hurt as well.

your own RXB wont be half bad either. T3 units with no armour? yes please :)
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Post by Duke daedric »

Big unit of Shades could also be deployed, but with a character that has RoD... tough you do need to deploy them in your deployment zone.

Corsairs with HB also preferable..
Hydra is allways a good idea - even str2 breathweapon kills lots of t3 no armour models :)
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Red...
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Post by Red... »

The main risk with the Hydra is that IIRC he has some troops that get S4 at short range - S4 with flaming attacks is devastating against a hydra (wounds on 5s, no regen save, 5+ armour save only).

If you want some real S+G, take a dreadlord on a black dragon with ring of darkness and armour of fortune. This will result in:

- Hitting you on 6s at long range, 5s at short range.
- Randomising so that 2/3 hit the dragon, 1/3 hit the dude.
- Wounding the dragon on 6s, followed by a 3+ armour save (4+ if he has the S4 bows).
- Wounding the dude on 4s, but then you have a 1+ armour save followed by a 4+ ward save.

(A quick review of the impact of this:
40 shots at long range = 6.6666 hits
Randomising = 4.444 on the dragon, 2.222 on the dude
Wounding the dragon on 6s = 0.75 wounds
Saving on the dragon on 3+ = 0.25 wounds
Wounding on the dude on 4s = 1.111 wounds
Saving on the dude on 2+ = 0.18 wounds
Ward save on the dude on 4+ = 0.09 wounds

Even if he managed to get his entire army of 80 models to shoot at the dragon at short range with S4 bows, his tally would still just be:

80 shots at short range = 26.666 hits
Randomising = 17.777 on the dragon, 8.888 on the dude
Wounding the dragon on 6s = 3 wounds
Saving on the dragon on 4s = 1.5 wounds
Wounding on the dude on 3s = 6 wounds
Saving on the dude on 2s = 1 wound
Ward save on the dude on 4+ = 0.5 wounds

His entire army would do just 1.5 wounds to the dragon and 0.5 to the dude, even if they all have S4 bows. Silly? Yes. Devastating? Absolutely.)

Run the beast up one of his flanks, and then charge horizontally down his line. It'll all be over for him, quickly and painfully. He may never agree to play you after though ;)
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Post by L1qw1d »

I liked using template Toughness tests versus those little hippies.

Also any Monster you charge with isn't killed by Killing blow but 80? Even for Woods that is some serious gunline cheese (Tho which would you rather see? too many easy to kill shooters or 6 Treekin that get eaten by Fire? lol)

Chillwind to Hydra holds it for at least one round- if you use the Shades on the flank or rear charge afterward, you shave them fairly quickly. If you can stagger it, get some Harpies in to harass, but that's a LOT before your real damage dealers show up
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Post by Saddleskull »

Thanks for advice..
he has 80 GG into 2 unit groups (1 with a mage)
and several units of dryads - (maybe a treeman)

I intend to use the cok, chariot and mobile dread (the dragon build looks interesting but due to points, he'll be on a cold one) on the archers (with shadow magic/dark magic - coldwind) and shades from the back .

While advance with my xbow/corsairs and/or witch elves on the dryads - backed up with shadow magic and couldron ..

Questions ...
1. would it be worth while taking an expensive unit like Black guard, or use a cheaper cc unit like corsairs or witch elves against his dryads, as i have cob?

2. would you use the hydra on the dryads or the gladeguard archers?

3. i have hever used harpies before, would a small unit of , say 6 be enough to flank the archers and cause some agro?
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Post by Vulcan »

80 archers? In how many units? Two big ones, 8 units of 10, it makes a big difference.

If he habitually runs two or three big units, run all your core in a half dozen units of 10 Corsairs naked. These guys go in front. Behind them come MSU special units, Wiches and Black Guard. COK go around to hit the flanks.

His shooting will severely weaken the Corsair units in one volley, but will probably require two volleys to wipe them out. Use this to your advantage, pulling survivors together to continue screening the troops behind. On turn 3, either the Corsairs will be in position to charge, or they will be so thinned out you will be able to charge around them without issue.

If he leaves the Corsairs to shoot at the stuff behind them, he's going to be shooting through a hard cover penalty of -2 and scoring even less wounds... not to mention that the corsairs will chew up his archers quite nicely.

Once he's pinned down in combat and can no longer S&S, bring in the Witches and Black Guard. Use combat reforms in sucessive turns to bring more of them into the combat. You'll crush him quickly enough.
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Post by Saddleskull »

Thanks for all advice...

He played around 80-100 Gladeguard in 3 units flanking his main cc dryad units..

Sadly, due to the distance fired by the gg bows, most of my xbow men were slaughtered before they could fire back (even then -2bs die to distance and 2x shots) causing little damage. Dryads wiped my Witch elves and Blackguard (due to a miscast on my mage), my shades fared little beter.

The tactic of using cold ones and chariot to engage the archers worked to a point but my cok were wiped out by 40 shots at close range.

Was a good game and fun to play, just De a bad match up vs Wood Elves i guess :-)
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Post by Dangerous Beans »

saddleskull wrote:just De a bad match up vs Wood Elves i guess :-)
One games conclusion, a good assumption does not make. Try not to be so hasty in making statements like that bro - maybe after you've played 20 games against them and you lose every one there might be some basis, but even then triple gladeguard is only one build for a wood elf army. Sure, they are not the easiest walk over for us (but then no army should be 'easy' to beat) but our lists can overcome them: trying to engage and beat them in a shooting war using crossbowmen however is really not a smart idea: they will outdeploy you, move woods to gain cover bonuses and run skirmishing dryads with good toughness and a ward save around your flanks. Knights can be good, but with only an effective 3+ armour save for a 1 wound model, these are a poor choice for their points cost: you don't really need their high strength attacks if you are fighting Toughness 3 troops with leaves for armour. Similarly 13 point Black Guard are a bad matchup too: 5+ armour with T3 is just easy victory points for your opponents, witch elves even more so.

If I were you saddleskull I'd have taken Vulcan's advice and run multiple smaller units of corsairs (10-14) in each with a dreadlord on dragon to beat up and bully his treemen/dryads as well as provide Ld 10 to all your guys so they don't panic.
Edit: just read that you don't have the points, in which case, crimson death, armour of darkness and pendent on foot so he could hold up a treemen, put him in a large unit of Corsairs with the flaming banner and away he can go!

A BSB in a 2nd large unit (25+) of frenzied corsairs would cement this. Finally taking 2 level 2 wizards on Dark Magic (Chillwind, Word of Pain) with Tome of Furion and Seal of Ghrond (great for stopping multiple low castings of treesinging or treemens bound spell versions). Finally a unit of Witch Elves with Flame Banner ready to kill off the inevitable unit of treekin.

The woodies would have been annihilated I'd bet! Post up a brief battle report and we might be able to be of further hope, but don't imagine that you cannot beat those little foresty punks! Thats why we are here to help - our honour demands it! :P
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Post by Saddleskull »

I can squeeze in 2 lev 2 wizards and a dreadlord on cold one... if that helps.. (tool up the dreadlord and unleash him)

And as for magic, Dark and shadow? or Shadow and fire?

I have ny bsb on my cod... which i place behind my lines..
Witch elves aith cod and shadow magic should give me a chance against dryads...
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Post by Jal »

Take 2 Dark mages vs Woodies, - Dryads are easily killable with Witch Elves without Shadow.

Corsair units seem to be the way forward (can even take handbows on them, and even with only 2 attacks each they'll still beat Gg), Dryads are easy enough to kill with lifetaker/magic missiles etc
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Post by Tyrannus deathbringer »

I think you need more decoy units and the ability to multicharge, as Tom Richards suggested earlier. Large units can only shoot at one target.

The dragon option Ive never tried but sounds like fun too :D
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Post by Dangerous Beans »

Dark elf dragon riders run roughshod over wood elf armies
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Post by Saddleskull »

THanks for advice...

The game is 1500 points... i play tomorrow..

My opponent has 80 Glade guard archers in 2 units
1 mage and treeman (mage in gg unit)
Rest in dryad units


i have at my disposal (made up to use)

1 charriot
6 shades
1 assassin
Mage on foot x2
mage/master on pegasus (can be either)
dreadlord/master on cold one (can be either)
10 cok's
40 xbow men
30 witches
20 corsairs
20 spearmen
hydra
cauldron


So, out of what i have available, can anyone recommend an ideal 1500 point set up?

I was thinking (after reading the advice) 40 xbow men (2 units) 2 mages shadow and dark(1 in each xbow unit), hydra, charriot, 30 witches and 20 corsairs (corsairs in a line protecting my witches)

I feel this does not allow me as much movement, but not sure where to go with it... maybe reduce xbow men for shades and 5 cok's??

All advice appreciated as i really need to save some pride after last times pin cushion game :-(
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Post by Senluthan »

Definitely go with 2 lvl2 dark mage. If you can get both chillwinds off, that is 80 man not doing anything except moving. Since you had a good experience with your shades, i would go with them again.
And then i would go with a chariot and a hydra if shot at, those two will do pretty well surviving. And take a lot of shots from the rest of your army. I would give them the opportunity of shotting at corsairs, who are screening your combat-units, or Hydra and chariot.
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Post by Tmarichards »

Well, first up you're in with a stroke of luck- his list is absolutely awful, which will go some way towards reversing what is usually a terrible match-up for Dark Elves (literally the only things that swing it to be good for Dark Elves are the presence of a Treeman or the Lesser Spotted Black Dragon). 80 Glade Guard in 2 units is a terrible idea,he should have 6 units of 10 and a 15, and the lack of Waywatchers is, well, baffling.

As a general, avoid list gearing. It won't help you improve your play, and a better bet is to get used to a certain playstyle and list so that you start to play better. A key part of this is working on your bad match-ups, instead of just deciding to build a geared list from scratch. It'll help you improve as a player no end. Taking 2 level 2 Dark mages, for example, may help against Wood Elves but how does that help you improve as a player if your first answer is to throw gimmicks into your list?

To be honest, you don't really need to gear your list that much. Take a standard list, but include a PegMaster with Cloak of Hag Graef and the Dawstone (at 1500pts you may have to put him onto a Dark Steed in order to accomodate the Cauldron, which is my single greatest love when playing with Dark Elves, and my greatest hate when playing against it with Wood Elves)- without Waywatchers, Wood Elves simply cannot deal with him at range and unless you use him badly he's too fast to get pinned down in combat. Charge him into one unit of Glade Guard and he'll grind them out, and then deploy the rest of your army behind your Warded up Corsairs (deploy them 15 wide to make sure they give a proper shield that he can't shoot around) and run straight at his other Glade Guard unit.

Pit the Treeman when the opportunity arises, and focus your shooting on his Dryads so that he can't send your Corsairs running across the board. Don't spread out, play a very tight game and close him down. Expect to take a good deal of casualties, but he's done you a huge favour by very kindly allowing you to close down half of his shooting with a single character. The second half of the game, once you get into him, is where you'll start to pick up points.
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Post by Saddleskull »

Thanks for the replies, I do wish to improve my gaming but as my main two friends play both Wood elves and High elves, these are the two learning armies i will be mainly against (especially wood elves). I do like the idea of 2x dark mages but feel the dryads would tear my witch elves apart without the bonuses from shadow magic.
In a small 1500 point game, it will also be hard to squeeze in the 200 point cob but i'll try :-)
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Post by Meteor »

In future, to counter these sorts of problems, take multiple small units of five Harpies and Dark Riders and Shades.

The easiest and most effective method to deal with these sorts of big missile units is to use magic.

Chillwind and/or Word of Pain from Dark Magic and also Miasma for the -BS from Shadow. Two spells are guaranteed to be generated since Chillwind is your basic spell, and Miasma in Shadow is your signature spell. Both are easy to cast, and so is Word of Pain if you get it. (Lv4 Sorc, you'll get it more often than not.)

Back when I still played 8th ed, my balanced list consisted of all the above mentioned elements. Lots of small harassing units (I actually took no RxBs) and always had a lv1 Shadow mage for Miasma and Lv3 at the least, for Dark Magic.

Never had trouble with enemy missile units, 80% of the time they were shut down, allowing my entire army to ignore them and focus on the melee parts of the enemy. In your case, the Dryads and Waywatchers etc.

Try it in future. When casting magic, remember only to bother casting 2, 3 spells max, and pool more than enough PD into it to ensure you get the casts off. There's no point casting just to watch them get dispelled.

Finally as a side note, I've found Chariots to be very resilient against WE GG. If you can ram them home, they'll be able to tie up a unit of GG quite easily. Provided you don't leave them stranded like so for too long to break due to SCR.

Also, look to invest into some Harpies in the future. They're pretty a staple unit for competitive play. You'll want at least two units of five, and they can be easily made using a box of DoC Daemonettes and Gargoyle wings. There are a lot of fantastic show cases of said conversions here in D.net.

Next you'll also want to purchase at least one unit of five Dark Riders too, and possibly another unit of Shades, maybe. But definitely the Harpies and then a unit of DR. Learn to use them, and you wont regret it.

Next, you'll want to purchase at least another box of Warriors to be made into Spearelves. They're the backbone of any DE army, and you'll need a much bigger unit of them too.



Building from what you've currently got, it'll be;

Lv3 Dark Magic w/ Dispel Scroll
Lv1 Shadow Magic w/ -
CoB BSB

20 Corsairs w/ FC & BoM (if taking RHB - I like) OR FC & SSS + AHW (standard - meh)
18 WE w/ FC & Flame Banner (only job is to poison flame attack the Treeman to death)
5 Shades w/ AHW

Rest of the points into 30 RxBs w/ Shield & Muso

If any points left, spend at will.
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Post by Lord tsunami »

As meteor said, harpies are essential. not because they can charge and kill 30 archers (they cant) but because 55 points of harpies will give hard cover to your elite units behind them. if he shoots at harpies with 30 archers, fine be my guest. he will most likely kill 55 points worth of models, but he "wasted" 30 shots that could have meant 10 dead witches.
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Post by Saddleskull »

Would a shade-heavy army work against WEs?? (i do like to be sneaky)

say 4 units of 5 shades with ahw ..

keep them at distance, out of their shooting arc and pepper them with shooting (basically deploy near them, shoot then follow them and shoot while movinf forward with my main army) then when they are weak enough, charge in and finish them off?
and as for dryads... stay out of their range and shoot them to pieces
(i feel shades are more cost effective than dark riders and basically do the same job only better due to better bs)

I think this would work well against the dryads (keeping out of range and shooting them to bits) but against his archers, he can quick re-form and shoot me down.. so may have to tie them up with magic and chariot/hydra/master on peg.
Last edited by Saddleskull on Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord tsunami
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Post by Lord tsunami »

wood elves can move and fire without penalty, so i wouldnt trust those shades to last long. you need to get a proper combat unit in contact with them. if you tie them up with a flying master, and cover your infantry with cheap disposable harpies you will do fine. better ask "how do i defeat this using a standard army" than saying "how can i change my army to defeat this". Tailoring is never a good idea, cause if you tailor your list (with something unusual like mass shades for example) to face his 80 archers, what is stopping him from tailoring his list to face all those shades instead? it becomes a game of "who can change their list fastest" rather than "who can use their list best" ;)
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Post by Saddleskull »

Thanks for reply :-)
I do understand about shades but from the description, Dark Riders are poor in 8th rules.
Against shooty armies they still have to get within 12" to shoot without penalty and they have less bs than shades with a much higher cost.
I can imagine the better mobility would be good harrasing a melee army but a waste of points vs a shooty army.
Or maybe i'm missing something
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Post by Meteor »

DR are a utility unit first and foremost, their value to your army comes in their ability as a fast cav, dealing damage is its secondary role.

They give you board presence and makes your army look bigger than it really is. It has a psychogical impact when your opponent sees two or three of these units half way across the board before turn 1 and then in their flanks harassing his units by turn 2 latest. DRs are scary when they are given the freedom to move 18" and face any direction, reforming as they wish and harass any squishy units they please. You threaten the right units, and your opponent will be on the back foot before the game has truly begun (literally). And that's the true advantage they have over static shooting RxB platforms.

You can for example, send multiple units of them down the flanks of a GG unit quite easily by turn 2, even by turn 1 if you deployed well. From then on, you either have the luxury of sitting there to hit them on 4's or force them to reform just to deal with your DR, which means they need to reform again next turn to face forward to shoot your main threats.

If they don't turn around, then you get to flank charge them with the DRs sitting there for a combined charge. That's a +1 CR for flank as well as delivering an extra eight to ten attacks depending on how many can fit in, where half of them are s4(I usually turn them 3 +2 for a smaller front).

Aside from that, once they flee from a charge, they can move immediately after rallying. I assume you know the whole notion of redirecting charges, and works particularly well when you have multiple units of DR because the enemy can only redirect once. So you can for example, set up two units of DR, one behind the other and force your opponent into charging the two units of DR thus they can't redirect into your combat unit, which can then charge in your turn, where you have magic to support you rather than against you, ergo, fighting on your terms.

So they're a nice little utility unit that works like Harpies, and in some ways, are better. They might be expensive when you're comparing damage output compared to RxBmen. But once people look past this secondary role of theirs, and start using them for their primary utility roles, that points cost of theirs is perfectly justifiable.

If you dig around the tactics section of our forums for DR topics, you'll find lots more useful pros and cons about them discussed at length for 8th ed. I'm using my phone for this post so I'm not bothered to find links and put them into here haha. (I still haven't done that D.R.A.I.C.H article for DRs that I promised Calisson haha)
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Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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*Magical properties possibly imbued
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