Skaven. I cannot beat them

[Sim2k]

First off my apologies, as I know there are other Skaven related topics here but I was hoping to ask about my specific problems as I do not have all the units at my disposal.

I have beaten my regular Skaven opponent a grand total of once, and that was when he had Deathmaster Snitch (or whatever his name is) and forgot to reveal him all battle.

The problem I face is that his army is too filled with huge threats and I cannot deal with all of them.

The Doomwheel is annoying, as it affects where I can put my Hydra, and also makes mincemeat out of any of my units aside from a charge from my CoK with dreadlord, and even then I have to be pretty lucky to beat it on combat res.

The level 4 grey seer on screaming bell, who is pretty much untouchable inside that massive unit of rats and on that big tough machine. He also has a horrific habit of irresistible forcing 13th spell and getting the better miscast rolls. For example, yesterday evening in his first turn he irresistible forced 13th spell, turned my entire unit (along with BSB) of corsairs into rats, rolled the miscast result where all his wizards take a hit, and ward-saved both of them.

The Hellpit Abomination. My Hydra can eat it if I get a nice flaming attack on it, and again my CoK with dreadlord might stand a chance if they can flank it and not get flanked themselves, but otherwise it just rampages wherever it wants. Last night I managed five wounds with a CoK charge and thought I was going to kill it next turn. He flanked charged me with his slaves, which I didn't care about, but he challenged my Dreadlord with his slave master whatever thing and my three remaining knights couldn't take off the last wound. It proceeded to kill my dreadlord (because of its base contact attacks) and the rest of my CoK, then merrily run on and wipe out an RXB unit (because apparently I can't stand and shoot because its not a charge). I took its last wound with my manbane/rending stars assassin after that, but at the end of that turn he rolled 6 for too horrible to die, and rolled a 6 for the wounds it got back too. It ate my assassin and overran into the rear of the spear unit with my level 4 in, that was when I called it quits...

Other things he can throw at me include a storm banner that hampers my shooting, annoying 2 attack + ward save reserve gutter runners, snipers, massive tar pits, poison ... the list goes on.

Do Skaven even have a weakness?

So, I need help. Due to lack of funds I won't be buying any new troops in a while so there are some things that I don't and won't have at my disposal for some time. Black Guard, Executioners, Witch Elves, Cauldron, Harpies and Dark Riders. Bad I know but that's how it is. I also don't have a pegasus mounted person so can't do any of these crazy dreadlord builds I keep seeing.

I tend to run my level 4 with dark and my level 2 with shadow but I guess its not working out.

I have 10 CoK and a cold one mounted Dreadlord, 15 corsairs, 60+ warriors, 24 RXB, 1 reaper, hydra, 8 shades (soon), assassin, death hag and 2 sorceresses.

Am I pretty much stuffed without all the things I'm missing? Or does anyone have any advice that might help me surprise that cheeky Skaven general in the future?

Thanks for any help and sorry for the wall of text

[Eyes and ears]

Well, I'm certainly no veteran of WHFB, in fact Ive never even faced the Skaven, and according to most sources I've come across, that has been a blessing.

Just a couple things I noticed and wanted to clarify in regards to your most recent battle with your Vermin opponent:

In the combat involving your CoK and his Abomination and Slaves, your Dreadlord was challenged by his Slave Master, so for that round of combat, only his Slave Master can attack your Dreadlord, regardless of who is in base contact with him. If your opponent attacked your Dreadlord with anyone but his Slave Master that round, he cheated, in Challenges, only the two characters involved can target one another.

And secondly, if his Abomination makes a random movement and comes into contact with one of your units, this does'nt count as a charge? Are you sure? And if so, does this apply to all models with a random movement (Pump Wagons, Chaos Spawn...) meaning you can only hold as a charge reaction?

Just a few questions from a newbie, I sincerely wish you the very best in getting some useable information from some of the vets in the forum, they have most certainly helped me.

In any case, may Khaine guide your blade My Lord, and may the vermin rat people tremble before your might.

Eternally,
Eyes and Ears

[Sim2k]

I'm not sure about the stand and shoot thing, so I let it pass.

As for the challenge, the Hellpit doesn't attack normally, but instead rolls for different effects, and he rolled something that hurts 'every model in base contacts' so I'm not sure how that should have worked out.

Thank you for the encouraging words though

[Ace073]

One of the reasons random movement can be a real pain now is that you can only hold to 'charges' by it.

Im honestly not sure if HPA was allowed to hit your Dread even with a special attack, just hope that one of the veterans pops in here to clarify for you

[L1qw1d]

if even one wound to the hpa is Flaming? it won't come back
metal isn't overly effective(barring augments and final transmute-which works awesomely), but firestorm can be fun lol

the main thing:
THIN THE HERDS then take out the Grey Seer. Use anything that challenges their strength (they're a lot like us in that respect- so Death, not Shadow).

you're going to need to tie up his large machines and shoot the HECK out of them. One RBT volley helps versus most warmachines (that part is IMO- Hydra matches versus HPA, so he'll try to get it out first, but RBT counters many warmachines pretty well)

What are your forces? Chariots? Harpies? Shades?

[Blackwinter]

may be for skaven its good to maximize our attacks. like using witch elves, corsairs, black guard. they are bringing steadfast and wounds so may be we should bring more attacks. cos even we are S3, thay are mostly T3 and light armored. and as the choise of magic lore: dark can be used. as for the black horror or soulsteal.

[Saintofm]

Lots of attacks, and flank the units so they can't get their rank bonuses (and thus their LD).

Lore of fire, shadow, and dark magic work well here in two ways.

Fire and dark magic do crows control with their attacks, and shadow weakens their stronger units, such as hell pit or the unit pushing the screaming bell,

Lore of metal is a lore I like, but is to be used against more armored foes.

[Thanee]

I had great success against the HPA with a small unit of Witch Elves with the Eternal Flame banner, Manbane Hag and a Rending Stars/Manbane Assassin inside. Move towards it, throw stars, laugh at it, as it does not dare to come closer, because it knows it will simply perish.

I guess a unit of Warriors with that banner could also work, even though not quite as well, of course (lacking the poison).

Lifetaker is amazing against Skaven to take out the annoying weapon teams.

Also, against Skaven you want multiple small shooting units to distribute your attacks better.

Against Irresistable Force... well not much to do there, than to build an army that does not rely on huge mega-important units.

I have 10 CoK and a cold one mounted Dreadlord, 15 corsairs, 60+ warriors, 24 RXB, 1 reaper, hydra, 8 shades (soon), assassin, death hag and 2 sorceresses.

Let's see...

You don't have a lot of troops, so going magic-heavy seems a given.

2500 pts (not sure what point size you are usually playing )

277 Dreadlord on Cold One with Soulrender, Heavy Armor, Sea Dragon Cloak, Dragonhelm, Pendant of Khaeleth, Crown of Command
345 Supreme Sorceress Level 4 (Death) with Lifetaker, Sacrificial Dagger, Seal of Ghrond
160 Sorceress Level 2 (Dark or Fire) with Dispel Scroll

171 Assassin with Additional Handweapon, Rending Stars, Manbane, Cloak of Twilight

215 25 Warriors with Shields, Full Command, War Banner -> Supreme Sorceress
270 35 Warriors with Shields, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame -> Assassin
115 10 RXB with Shields, Musician -> Sorceress
115 10 RXB with Shields, Musician
200 15 Corsairs with Full Command, Sea Serpent Standard

370 10 COK with Full Command, Whip of Agony, Standard of Hag Graef -> Dreadlord
85 5 Shades with Additional Handweapons

175 1 War Hydra

The bigger Warrior unit with the Assassin want to oppose the HPA (of course, you want to move it in a way, that suggests, that you do NOT want to get close to that thing, so it comes storming towards you; then reveal Assassin, move close and throw stars).

The Dreadlord can move/charge out of the COK unit to engage a Deathwheel or other annoying high Str units. Lack of BSB is a bit of an issue here, so best use him with some care (best not to make too many Break Tests reducing the chance to get an unlucky result).

The Lifetaker and Magic Missiles plus RXB shooting aim for annoying weapon teams and other small stuff first, then whittle down bigger units.

Death Magic to kill characters (esp. casters), otherwise magic depends on what spells you get, of course (the Ld debuff is useful against Steadfast; best cast on their General's unit; Purple Sun is probably not so useful, so just switch that for the #0 spell if you get it).

The Corsairs want to hunt Slaves and other weak infantry.

The Sorceress-Bunker Warriors stay back (only use them to engage units, if necessary, and even then only weaker units, like Slaves or Gutter Runners).

The COK engage stronger units (trying to fight their way through to the Grey Seer / Screaming Bell unit).

The Hydra can probably take on some big infantry units as well.

Bye
Thanee

[Prince fabulas]

L2 and L4 on Fire give the L4 the dagger that should easily kill the Abom. and gutter runners and give you many good spells to whittle down the skaven blocks.

Put lifetaker on th SS to pick of gutter runners weapons teams.

An assassin with rending stars and manbane in a unit with the flaming banner can also mince aboms and is good for picking off gutter runners.


Make sure you have a big enough unit of spears (20+) to go into if he is threatening 13th spell as you don't want your characters turning into rats.

[Shadowstalker18]

I have found the best way to kill skaven casters early on is to charge his bunker unit with CoKs and then next turn charge his bunker in the rear with your shades. His caster will jump to the rear so he wont die from the CoKs and next turn charge his unit in the rear so he cannot run away. Boom, dead skaven caster. Worked for me so far.

[Sim2k]

Awesome advice so far everyone, thanks very much

It never occurred to me to use the flaming banner against the hellpit, how stupid of me! I guess that is why I am not yet a commander of the caliber of you gentlemen.

An assassin with rending stars/manbane + flaming attacks in an awesome idea! Although after the first time he will know exactly where the assassin is going to be if I have a flaming banner ... although I guess I could use that to my advantage too and surprise him.

Edit: Oh yeah and it was and will be 2,500 points, sorry I forgot to include that somewhat vital information

Also, what do you think about the banner of swiftness on the warriors with the Supreme Sorceress, so that she can maybe get in range for her spells easier?

[Cold73]

If you are indeed playing 2500 pnt games, the unit of Witch Elves with the Assassin is very good. If you are playing lower game points (2000 or even less). The Witch Elves with the Banner of Eternal Flame will on their own be more then capable of destroying the helll pit.
But with the Assassin in it...you can even give the Doom Wheel a run for its money.

As for using the Banner of Swiftness for the unit of Warriors with your Supreme Sorceress. I personally would not do that. Dont forget the Skaven will be half way yo your lines by the end of their first turn if they go first.

[Flash29]

if a skaven players has a larger variety of models and if he is a good player, knights are a wasted effort. skaven have a pletora of spells AND attacks which simply ignore armour saves. plague mortars, warp lighting cannons, the dreaded furnace, plague, senser bearers even. and then theres the high amount of armour reducing or high strenth attacks, like the abomination, the doomwheel even jezzails, although they are a uncommon sight.

this is of course, because of slaves, leadership 10 steadfast slaves. let me put it like this, i buy a unit of 45 slaves. i put them so you can't reach my main units. i buy 3 actually, since their core AND their amazingly cheap a unit of 45 with musician will run you under a 100 points. And it means i can cast spells, shoot templates, shoot jezzails, and all other funn stuff on your cold ones. now if you manage to take 2 casualty's, and thats going to happen, you need to kill 35 skavenslaves to reliably break them. and the best part? you can't persue slaves, since they just explode, possibly wasting another turn.

skaven have only one enemy and its luck their stuff is so random they can lose just by bad rolling. or be a unstoppable force by good rolling, as you have experienced.

i do recommend this, get lokhir, and get more corsairs, infantry may not like the dreaded thirtheent spell. but in combat you will dominate everything.

get lore of death, and use a unit to kill that hellpit, or some shooting or similar, don't engage it. if you have harpies, you could always be a ass, don't forget, it pivots then makes a full move and pivots again, place stuff in the way to mess him up. maybe take lore of dark ior fire if you have trouble killing of skirmishers and weapon teams. shades also do a good job.

and big units, small units will just bite you in your elven behind, litteraly even when your proud unit turns into skaven.


if you want a good list, what does he usually carry?, i mean i can recommend some shooting, but stormbanner makes those points wasted.
does he run pestilence troops, lots of warmachines, or?

[Thanee]

An assassin with rending stars/manbane + flaming attacks in an awesome idea! Although after the first time he will know exactly where the assassin is going to be if I have a flaming banner ...

Well, he won't know where the banner is, though, until you use it for the first time (which in this setup, usually, is when the Assassin has been revealed to throw the stars).

Bye
Thanee

[Sim2k]

I've been putting together your list thanee as close as I can but I realised I overestimated how many warriors I had! I only have 47 not 60! Do you think the list will suffer much with some warriors trimmed off? As in will the slightly smaller units still be able to do their jobs?

Another thing is I'm unlikely to have my shades by the time I next play him. I guess I'll have to take my bolt thrower instead...

[Frederique]

Lore of Death:
because Screaming Bell and Plague Furnace automatically die to the Purple Sun, and it's more accurate than Pit of Shades because it goes in a line (instead of scattering).

[Cold73]

Lore of Death:
because Screaming Bell and Plague Furnace automatically die to the Purple Sun, and it's more accurate than Pit of Shades because it goes in a line (instead of scattering).

I'm not sure that is the case. Last time I checked the Screaming Bell and Plague Furnace were qualified as Unique, not as Warmachines. Meaning they would still get an initiative test.

[Frederique]

Even though the "wagon" has a - for initiative?
In your logic, would that mean the whole model tests on the highest I, and the whole model dies if it fails?

[Thanee]

Here's a slightly altered 2500 pts list with the above limitations included.

277 Dreadlord on Cold One with Soulrender, Heavy Armor, Sea Dragon Cloak, Dragonhelm, Pendant of Khaeleth, Crown of Command
345 Supreme Sorceress Level 4 (Death) with Lifetaker, Sacrificial Dagger, Seal of Ghrond
185 Sorceress Level 2 (Dark or Fire) with The Guiding Eye, Dispel Scroll

171 Assassin with Additional Handweapon, Rending Stars, Manbane, Cloak of Twilight

159 17 Warriors with Shields, Full Command, War Banner -> Supreme Sorceress
235 30 Warriors with Shields, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame -> Assassin
283 24 RXB with Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer -> Sorceress
200 15 Corsairs with Full Command, Sea Serpent Standard

370 10 COK with Full Command, Whip of Agony, Standard of Hag Graef -> Dreadlord

175 1 War Hydra
100 1 Reaper Bolt Thrower

Bye
Thanee

[Frederique]

According to a thread on TWF, the Seer/Priest tests on its own I,
and the wagon/crew tests on the highest I of the wagon/crew.
In the case of the bell, the Ogre's I is used since the Bell has a -.
Does the furnace have a crew to borrow I from? If not, it's just the -
and it's auto-dead.

[Sim2k]

Thank you for helping me out and taking the time to do me a list

[Cold73]

Thanks for finding the thread on TWF about that f(redber)f. Being at work i dont have all the time in the world to check

As far as the Screaming Bell I believe this is seen as an upgrade for the Grey Seer. That would mean the Bell would use the Initiative of the Grey Seer.

It feels really odd that a huge contraption like the Bell or Furnace can react so d**n fast, but I don't see any other way to interpret this.

[Kale]

Combination of Shadow and Dark work really well against Skaven. In last game I dropped Initiative of hellpit to 2 with miasma and then dropped it into Pit. Lowered toughness of the unit that pulls bell to 1 - after that cast soulstealer on them - 23 dead rats. Other hellpit charged BG that was in the building and bounced of - and that was without flaming banner. It is standard 2000 points list with SS (dagger - shadow magic) and level 2 (tome of furion - dark magic). Combination of Power of darkness and dagger is just lethal. Rolled double 1 on winds of Magic - ended up with 8 dice.

[Nocturnal]

then merrily run on and wipe out an RXB unit (because apparently I can't stand and shoot because its not a charge).

Hi

Sorry that this is a lot after you said this but I was reaading in the Skaven army book and it says that you can declare a charge raction as normal even though it has random movement

[Vulcan]

then merrily run on and wipe out an RXB unit (because apparently I can't stand and shoot because its not a charge).

Hi

Sorry that this is a lot after you said this but I was reaading in the Skaven army book and it says that you can declare a charge raction as normal even though it has random movement

Nope. FAQ says Doomwheel and A-bombs have random movement, period. No charge reactions are allowed.