Which Armies do the DE's do worst against?

[Druchiishootlord]

To clarify for Red they have Light Armor.

The only tough thing that there is about Dwarf crews includes the fact that most of them have the option of choosing to add a champion. So they'll often have an extra attack and some kind of pistols or handgun. Not too daunting just something to keep in mind.

I would very much suggest going after war machines first. Even their lightly armored missile units are fairly hardy. They're also 2nd priority to the war machines.

[Gidean]

I also struggle against dwarfs in tournament settings. It's a matchup that is very much "do or die" for us as they can handle anything we field (Although our pegasus characters can be really hard for them).

The trick is to just run EVERYTHING you have into their lines. They will kill some of your things really quickly, but if you have double hydra (cannonfodder so that pegasus gets in), 2-3 pegasus characters (Pendant on one, Cloak of hag graef on the other), lots of harpies or shades to use as shields for your troops... well, you might just lose half of what you have and then smash him alltogether over some rounds of close combat.

*sighs* I have to field 3 Peg characters? That doesn't leave me room for a supreme sorceress or a cauldron.

[Druchiishootlord]

Well a single Supreme Sorceress against Dwarves probably don't get a whole lot done anyway. They have very good magic defense. I believe a single Peg Master and something around 2 units of Harpies, 2 units of Dark Riders, and 2 units of Shades should be plenty. That's 3 flying units, 2 movement 9, and then 2 units of Scouts. If he can somehow deal with all of that I will honestly amazed.

If you post some kind of list that you usually play against it would help greatly in aiding you.

[Gidean]

Well a single Supreme Sorceress against Dwarves probably don't get a whole lot done anyway. They have very good magic defense. I believe a single Peg Master and something around 2 units of Harpies, 2 units of Dark Riders, and 2 units of Shades should be plenty. That's 3 flying units, 2 movement 9, and then 2 units of Scouts. If he can somehow deal with all of that I will honestly amazed.

If you post some kind of list that you usually play against it would help greatly in aiding you.

2500 Pts - Dwarfs Roster -

Dwarf Lord (1#, )
1 Dwarf Lord, (Always Strikes Last; General; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Gromril Armor; Shieldbearers)
1 Runic Weapon (Master Rune of Kragg the Grim; Rune of Cleaving x1; Rune of Striking x1)
1 Runic Armor (Rune of Resistance; Rune of Stone)
1 Runic Talisman (Master Rune of Spite)

Runelord (1#, )
1 Runelord, (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Gromril Armor)
1 Runic Talisman (Rune of Spellbreaking x2)

Thane (1#, )
1 Thane (Battle Standard Bearer), (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Gromril Armor; Battle Standard Bearer; Oath Stone; Stonebeards: 'Ironbreakers')
1 Runic Standard (Master Rune of Valaya)

Dwarf Warriors (20#, )
19 Longbeards, (Always Strikes Last; Upgrade to Longbeards; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour)
1 Veteran (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour)

Thunderers (20#, )
19 Thunderers,(Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Dwarf Handgun; Light Armour)
1 Veteran (Hand Weapon; Dwarf Handgun; Light Armour)

Artillery Battery (4#,)
1 Cannon, (Rune of Burning; Rune of Forging; Cannon)
3 Crew (Hand Weapon; Light Armour)

Ironbreakers (30#, )
29 Ironbreakers, (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Gromril Armor; Shield)
1 Ironbeard (Hand Weapon; Gromril Armor; Shield)

Quarellers (10#, )
10 Quarrellers, (Hand Weapon; Crossbow; Light Armour)

Artillery Battery (4#, )
1 Organ Gun,
3 Crew (Hand Weapon; Light Armour)

Artillery Battery (4#,)
1 Cannon, (Rune of Burning; Rune of Forging; Rune of Reloading; Cannon)
3 Crew (Hand Weapon; Light Armour)

Artillery Battery (4#, )
1 Organ Gun,
3 Crew (Hand Weapon; Light Armour)

Artillery Battery (4#, )
1 Grudge Thrower, (Rune of Accuracy; Rune of Penetrating x2; Stone Thrower)
3 Crew (Hand Weapon; Light Armour)

Validation Report:
Army Subtype: Dwarf Army; Edition: 8th Edition; Game Type: Normal Game; Special Rules: Forbid Regiments of Renown
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 497 (0 - 625)
Points of Heroes: 214 (0 - 625)
Points of Core: 700 (625 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 845 (0 - 1250)
Points of Rare: 240 (0 - 625)

Total Roster Cost: 2496

[Druchiishootlord]

First of all I like your son's style with his Dwarf Lord, it's very close to how I run mine and mine has been a terror in my local gaming store for years.

As for the list itself...it is fairly solid I guess. There's a few things that stand out that you can take quite a of an advantage of.

1.) If you play by the ETC and can only generate 2 extra dice a turn then you might as well not even bring a Supreme Sorceress. Since he is generating 2 himself every turn it's going to a rough magic phase. That plus his additional +2 to dispel should be indication enough to go heavy or go none.

2.) That Oath Stone should prove to be more of a burden than a blessing to him. His BSB can never leave his unit and once placed the unit itself cannot move. Of course the trick is to getting him to place it. Once it has been though he can be picked apart piecemeal.

3.) With very little for him to place before his artillery and once he has I would overload the opposite, or most favorable, flank with your faster moving elements and then roll his artillery. With 5 pieces he will have to bunch a few which will make things easy to contact on overrun. You may need to sacrifice a unit to slip past an Organ Gun. If you get lucky and he bunches them then just avoid them and go the other way.

[Gidean]

We don't play ETC here in the States.

He does bunch them. Got favorable terrain in the 2 games I lost. They were bunched in the middle on a hill with the handgunners and crossbows below. He pretty much had range of the table. BTW, he has yet to actually drop the stone.

The one game I had a winning draw he had less favorable terrain and I did as you suggested. But rolled up his quarrelers and handgunners.

What really adds insult to injury is that he just got this army at Christmas. The kids learns very very fast!

I think elves are the wrong counter. My first lost was using High Elves. I think I need to break out my Warriors of Chaos. They know how to beat down Dwarves.

[Red...]

If you do what has been suggested, elves should be a good counter. Maybe post your own list.

[Samusin]

lol since the errata you can't overun warmachines or units that gets destroyed by abilitys (cornered rats/unstability etc)... last part is not so interesting, but the warmachine thing is quite anoying meaning your riders can'T make it thriugh a whole line of warmachines in only a few turns, but need to stop after every destroyed warmachine -.-

[Vulcan]

lol since the errata you can't overun warmachines or units that gets destroyed by abilitys (cornered rats/unstability etc)... last part is not so interesting, but the warmachine thing is quite anoying meaning your riders can'T make it thriugh a whole line of warmachines in only a few turns, but need to stop after every destroyed warmachine -.-

If you do enough wounds to kill the warmachine outright you absolutely can overrun.

You just can't overrun if the warmachine looses combat, and is destroyed when it fails the break test.

Same thing with instability or 'cornered rats'. If they survive until combat resolution to make the break test (or crumble), you can't overrun. If you wipe them out to a man before combat res, you can.

[Gidean]

^

This. But with certain armies *cough...Dwarves..cough* It is hard to kill all three crew with your typical anti-warmachine troops. Even a Peg. Master would be challenged to get all 3. So he gets two, wins combat, it breaks and he stays stuck so that the Dwarf play gives him a cannonball to the face in the following turn.

[Vulcan]

^

This. But with certain armies *cough...Dwarves..cough* It is hard to kill all three crew with your typical anti-warmachine troops. Even a Peg. Master would be challenged to get all 3. So he gets two, wins combat, it breaks and he stays stuck so that the Dwarf play gives him a cannonball to the face in the following turn.

If he's not using an Engineer on his warmachines, you're getting off light only facing 3 crew.

But I conceed your point.

[Red...]

Okay, if you're really struggling here then include something along the lines of the following in your list:

- Master on Pegasus with full mundane kit, dawnstone and cloak of HG (1+/2+ re-rollable save with the S of all missile attacks halved, so giving you a 3+ re-rollable save versus cannonball shots): 190 points

- Master on Pegasus with Pendant of Khaine (inverse ward save, giving you an 83.333% chance save against cannonballs) and full mundane kit: 179 points

- 4x5 Dark Riders with lances, musicans and no crossbows: 368 points

- 2x 7 shades with additional hand weapons: 238 points

- 4x5 harpies: 220 points

That sort of speed and swampingness should be more than sufficient to overwhelm him. Support it with normal heavy hitters (blackguard with AP banner, Execs with Standard of HG BSB, big block of warriors, horde unit of corsairs, etc) and he will either have to ignore your heavy hitters, which will enable to move up and bulldoze through his actually quite light amount of infantry (although do avoid the dwarf lord if you can...), or he will have to ignore enough of your fast troops that you can quickly and deftly annihilate his missile troops and warmachines. It's a good idea, as already mentioned, to get your fast troops behind his lines as quickly as possible, because that way his move or shoot thunderers and quarrellers will not be able to deal with them.

If that doesn't work, swap armies with him for a game or two and you'll quickly see that dwarves do have a lot of weaknesses and that these are definitely surmountable by dark elves (my second army is a dwarf one, so I do have some knowledge of this). I'll leave this thread here, as I'm not sure what else I can add. Good luck with it.

[Gidean]

Okay, if you're really struggling here then include something along the lines of the following in your list:

- Master on Pegasus with full mundane kit, dawnstone and cloak of HG (1+/2+ re-rollable save with the S of all missile attacks halved, so giving you a 3+ re-rollable save versus cannonball shots): 190 points

- Master on Pegasus with Pendant of Khaine (inverse ward save, giving you an 83.333% chance save against cannonballs) and full mundane kit: 179 points

- 4x5 Dark Riders with lances, musicans and no crossbows: 368 points

- 2x 7 shades with additional hand weapons: 238 points

- 4x5 harpies: 220 points

I don't own 20 harpies. Have 5 painted and 5 yet to construct. But I like to build all comer armies. I concede the point that this specific army could get it done.

[Vulcan]

Okay, if you're really struggling here then include something along the lines of the following in your list:

- Master on Pegasus with full mundane kit, dawnstone and cloak of HG (1+/2+ re-rollable save with the S of all missile attacks halved, so giving you a 3+ re-rollable save versus cannonball shots): 190 points

- Master on Pegasus with Pendant of Khaine (inverse ward save, giving you an 83.333% chance save against cannonballs) and full mundane kit: 179 points

- 4x5 Dark Riders with lances, musicans and no crossbows: 368 points

- 2x 7 shades with additional hand weapons: 238 points

- 4x5 harpies: 220 points

I don't own 20 harpies. Have 5 painted and 5 yet to construct. But I like to build all comer armies. I concede the point that this specific army could get it done.

You don't have to - or indeeed, WANT to - include all of those in one army. Just a good selection of that sort of units. You can even mix-and-match depending on what models you have.

I usually run 2x5 harpies and 2x5 shades, sometimes with a unit of DR or a Peggy Master to run inteference.

[Druchiilad]

It can really depend on the player and their list(s).

Personally I've played every army apart from Dwarfs and Lizardmen, but I've lost 0-2 to Beastmen, both close games, but evidence shows they are my Achilles Heel. Although Vampires can be a slog with re raising what you've killed and I tend to find Warriors of Chaos a challenge, but still fun to play.

I tend to run through Bretonnians and High Elves, Brets seem to rubber lance the 2 times I've played them and being a ex High Elf player I know how to really bring the pain to them.

[Samusin]

I just recently found that ogres are horrible to play against

[Vulcan]

I'll grant you that ogres can be a pain. Fortunately, our lores have two good 'I test or die' spells to whittle them down to size. RXB fire can also knock a few bodies off their units.

Use you redirectors with care. Impact hits on the charge hurt us worse than most. Deny them the charge, hit them from multiple sides, and plan your matchups carefully. That,s how you handle ogres: carefully.

[Drek]

Gun lines, eh? They were all over the place here in Atlanta about five years ago, then they faded away. I've found that the key unit is harpies, and the dwarves key weakness is that they are move-or-fire. Or has that changed in 8th? Because if they are still move or fire, try to get your harpies to fly over the gun line. Now they are behind and too close for a stand & shoot reaction. If you have to, use the new LoS rules to hide them behind a bigger unit that can take the hits.

As far as composition, for years I used 3 DR, 2 harpies, one shade. It was dicey beating a gun line with that, but I got good at it, and it was versatile enough that all those units came in handy vs any army.

[Meteor]

Tomb Kings and VC are difficult for me. I play the typical glass cannon style, combine charge, break on the turn, run them down. Any sort of army that doesn't break and requires grinding to the last model will be an uphill battle.

Mass archers doesn't seem to be a problem for me, considering my army has multiple means to shutdown a number of shooting platforms each turn.

Easier armies are more elite ones where losing a single unit will hurt, such as WoC, or low armour armies like Daemons and Ogres. T4+ doesn't concern me when I can mass S3 them provided their armour is heavy or worse.

[Kurze]

I used to struggle with the rats, so many RATS!!!!, but hav'nt played against them since 6th.

I did have issues with Dwarves until I just stopped taking magic users altogether against them. The war machine crews were a tough nut, only because of the engineer champ with two pistols. Oh, always kill the anvil ASAP!

VC always put the fear in me ( no pun intended), but oddly I usually do ok nowadays against them.

Actually, I think the toughest army I had to face recently was another Druchi host....

[Tyrannus deathbringer]

Gun lines, eh? They were all over the place here in Atlanta about five years ago, then they faded away. I've found that the key unit is harpies, and the dwarves key weakness is that they are move-or-fire. Or has that changed in 8th? Because if they are still move or fire, try to get your harpies to fly over the gun line. Now they are behind and too close for a stand & shoot reaction. If you have to, use the new LoS rules to hide them behind a bigger unit that can take the hits.

As far as composition, for years I used 3 DR, 2 harpies, one shade. It was dicey beating a gun line with that, but I got good at it, and it was versatile enough that all those units came in handy vs any army.

Drek,

That sounds really interesting. I remember you saying you were recently back into 8th edition so you might not feel prepared for this -> but Im wondering if you could write a tactica on your anti-gunline usage of the DR, harpies and shades?

[Ankhalagon]

I fear only ogres and chaos dwarfs. All other armies are not so scary.

[Joey_boy]

I'm really surprised that no one have mentioned Wood Elves, or even Highmagic High Elves, from my experience with my WE I normally shred DE army's fairly easy. The mass of s3/4 attacks hitting first or from shooting normally just removes entire DE units while the mass of KB/noAS options from my 16-20 Waywatchers, 2-3*7 wardancers and BoL/Bodkins lord normally just removes any Pegg/Coldone/DS character. I have 1 minor loss against DE in the last 3 years with WE. Just staying away from Treemen, Eternal Guard and Treekin makes WE perfect for killing DE.

[Gidean]

Wood elves were likely not mentioned because so few play them anymore. I haven't played against a Wood Elf army in some two years. If I did with my Dark Elves then I might actually feel the pain that you say you can bring. Dwarves are my bane. Maybe I will do the like writer some post back said, and not bother with mages.

[Drek]

Drek,

That sounds really interesting. I remember you saying you were recently back into 8th edition so you might not feel prepared for this -> but Im wondering if you could write a tactica on your anti-gunline usage of the DR, harpies and shades?

You are correct, I am recently back into 8th, but I am honored and would be glad to do so. My job is in the crapper so I will likely have plenty of free time in a few weeks.

And by the way: Lizards are my bogey army. I have always really struggled against Lizards.