Black guard worth anything?

Executioner_of_khaine · Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:16 pm

Mine usually die quickly to shooting, and I have found them to be good against mediocre troops in HTH. I believe them to be hampered by the max ox 20 models, strength 3, toughness 3 and the lack of a good armor save. They are Elves after all and I do understand that is what we are stuck with, but I see a lot of posts where people rave about how good they are. Army lists with 2-3 units of them. Maybe I am an edition too late in asking? Anyways, to my questions....

Is Kouran worth taking under any circumstances? (what is Captain of the Guard and Graef armor? I cannot see them listed anywhere)

How do you use your BG in games. I am thinking of knocking the dust and the bad memories off of mine sticking a ring of Hotek on em and heading in someone's face? Good idea or bad?

Tyrannus deathbringer · Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:35 pm

Pros:

They strike with S4 which is better than all our other elven infantry save Executioners. Unlike Execs they are not hampered by ASF and have high initiative.

They have elite stats meaning that they usually strike first and strike better than the majority of enemy troops.

They can carry a magic banner.

The leader can carry a magic item.

They are hard to break.

Cons:

Toughness 3

5+ AS

Model cap

Uses

They can be used in small groups as a 'speedbump' or character babysitter, in maxed units as an offensive or defensive part of your battleline, or as the host of a 'deathstar' build.

Everyone's playstyle is different but I wouldnt be so quick to write off Naggarond's finest

Check out some of the battle reports from tournament players in particular (i.e. Scyloc, tmarichards, Omnichron) to learn about their uses and see how effective they can be.

Leduwob · Post by **Leduwob** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:38 pm

Yes they are worth. I use them to bog down the main enemy unit, while the rest of my army is going wild elsewhere.
And in 99% cases they fight to the last.

Executioner_of_khaine · Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:32 am

leduwob wrote:Yes they are worth. I use them to bog down the main enemy unit, while the rest of my army is going wild elsewhere.
And in 99% cases they fight to the last.

I guess ld9 stubborn ain't too shabby. Buff with the Cauldron and they could hold on long enough for an Execution style flank charge. Also, in today's game, I don't think 300 or so points is too expensive if they are lost.

What banner and/magic item is best for these guys? I was thinking of testing the ring of Hotek out??
I use lvl 4 and a 2, ASF banner in w/Executioners and 40+Spearmen, R-xbows and other riff raff to support, if that helps the thought process.

Thanks for the input guys

Scyloc · Post by **Scyloc** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:02 am

Depending on your opponent of course, i would suggest std of murder which makes them an all-round choice.
With stubborn 9 and a 5++ ward from the cauldron they Are actually quite tough. But yes they Are elves with all our weaknesses.

Post by **Daeron** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:36 am

I used them as grinders so far and... well they may not look dazzling on paper but they just work.

The fact they are stubborn means you can forget about steadfast and maximize their frontage. They have two attacks so they don't need the +1 A CoB buff just to get some dice rolling (unlike our executioners). They tend to strike at initiative without the need for buffs and tricks. And they get rerolls in every round of combat. We know from HE infantry how deadly that works. Sure, S4 isn't anything impressive but keep in mind that "they strike first" most of the time.

Take 20, give them a musician. Nobody doubts a 255 point spearmen block of 40 spearmen that needs to be grinded down to beat its steadfast. This unit of BG costs 267 points, will do some kills, will retain a good offense up until the front rank, will be stubborn/steadfast until the very last man.

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:44 am

I like them for the 2 S4 rerolled attacks, but honestly? You have no idea how many extra Panic flees (from other units breaking) I've avoided having them around.

Scyloc · Post by **Scyloc** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:45 am

Well argumentet Daeron

Cold73 · Post by **Cold73** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:39 am

I think Black Guard are definatly worth their points.
The sheer number of attacks they can put out, combined with the rerolls to hit makes them wonderfull.

I have know Bretonnia players to not dare charge a unit of BG with a unit of 9 knights, knowing they will probably loose half of their unit before they even get to strike. (Banner of Murder on that unit is great, and means most infantry dont have an armour save anymore)

They are just as vulnerable to shooting as most other units...and if you play against opponents who throw everything including the kitchensink to destroy that unit from afar...put them behind some other units...

Miasma · Post by **Miasma** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:21 am

I have been been tempted to run several small units of 5 of these with musician as characters assasins even in small units they still pack a punch with 8 WS5, S4, I6 attacks unless I am facing High Elves or Wood Elves I am likely to be striking first and aiming those attacks at wizards, bsb ect. Although the fact that they're stubborn will also help after the job is done, preventing the enemy unit from marching for a turn.

For only 72 points that sort of unit is not to be sneezed at, of course this is only theory so far as I have yet to test the idea out

Post by **Daeron** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:27 am

It's an interesting idea. I've been thinking about it as well, but I turned away from the idea. The reason is simply that they loose the role which they are best at: forcing a grind.

With only 5 models, you're counting on either assassination or pinning small units. That's something 5 Witch Elves could do just as well and perhaps better, for a smaller cost. Deploy them 3 wide and you have a superbly mobile assassination unit.

There is one particular trick a unit of 5 BGs might be best at... A not so tough cavalry unit, or any unit with a number of attacks low enough to ensure no 5 kills will be made easily. They could pin such a unit down for 2 rounds. Still, that's a big risk. I've not seen "weak" heavy cavalry around without some form of buff to make it killy enough to blow 5 Black Guards away. It's a gamble. I'd rather make that gamble with cheaper Witch Elves.

Scyloc · Post by **Scyloc** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:07 pm

In an uncomped (or lightly comped) environement, you can make a pretty interesting MSU build.
Lv4 + 2 Shadow
CoB BSB
3x7 WEs
3x7 BGs

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:14 am

They are just as vulnerable to shooting as most other units

Right, but the kicker is that they cost more than other units per model. You can afford nearly two shielded dark elf warriors for every blackguard model that you take, but both have toughness 3, 1 wound and a 5+ armour save. And the warriors don't have a unit cap, so you can build resilience into the unit, while blackguard are maxed out at 20 and so every wound really hurts - both pointswise and unit sizewise too. Yes, blackguard are stubborn until they all die, but at just 20 models with T3 and a 5+ save, they do all die quite quickly when an enemy focuses their efforts on them.

Blackguard have a lot of excellent qualities, but they are definitely the most vulnerable to enemy missile and magic fire. If you want to field them and know that your enemy has a lot of missiles to throw at them, taking a defensive item such as ring of darkness is an excellent idea.

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:21 am

I wouldn't compare them to Spears though. It's a Special so you'd have to compare them to a Special. That's like comparing someone in Special Forces to someone straight out of Boot.

If you use terrain and other units, you can get them into position with minimal problems, and they can be a good go-to unit. You're definitely correct on point sink, especially given the way 8th has changed the rules and how it causes them to act and react.

They're Stronger and more armoured than Wych elves and can be joined by a character (again, one of the benefits of Hag BSB. Can go anywhere.) but lack the more 'Hammer' Damage per Round of Poison.

They are not as strong as Execs, again also lacking the definitive special rules. They do handle being an anvil slightly better unless a CoB is around.

Post by **Daeron** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:01 am

Interesting point... "Not as strong as Execs". Wouldn't that be extremely situational?

I find Executioners heavily hampered by their limited attacks and "always strikes last". Without any tools, the black guard are quite likely to decimate any small chaff unit before it can strike back. Even executioners

Sure, it may take 2-3 rounds of combat for any medium sized unit to be grinded down, but this still means they'll take hits one round less than the executioners. They have an additional attack, with rerolls in every round, with S4 so they'll grind down anything but the toughest, or the most heavily armored unit around.

To achieve similar effectiveness, Executioners need to be tooled up: with bodies to compensate for the initial death toll, or a BSB with ASF (But then forget the CoB BSB), with a Cauldron to acquire an equal amount of attacks, within a range of the CoB to remain stubborn, with a general around to make up for the LD and still they don't have the rerolls in subsequent rounds. But whatever solution you take, it's a more expensive solution than a black guard unit.

Black guards need little support to be a strong, reliable, grinding anvil. Given minimal support, they'll be the superior unit in practically every battle. No other unit in our army fills that role so effectively, even point cost effectively. That doesn't mean your army needs black guard. It just means it's a solid unit in its own right. It is the least demanding on the composition of the rest of your army unlike Executioners.

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:57 am

I only meant Strength with the weapon they are using, and Special rules. The situational part would be 'how would one equal the other', which is not what the units are for.

Put a CoB for the KB near the BG, and you have slightly weaker (Strength only) Execs that fight at 'normal speed'. Put the ASF Hag BSB in Execs, and you have KB, but less attack Exec's (and a TARGET painted on that BSB more than usual if you fight a canny player). Add the CoB +1 Attack and you've matched the amount of attacks (and the Stubborn since you're near the CoB), but lack the Eternal Hatred re-rolls/ some of the Psych.

It's the amount of points and effort you'd be willing to use to offest and which you'd prefer to Bless (again situationally) you'd want to add to either unit.

I mean, heck, in a S test, they're BOTH S3.

Arggg · Post by **Arggg** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:53 am

L1qw1d wrote:I mean, heck, in a S test, they're BOTH S3.

*execs are str 4

IMO black guard lacks what phoenix guard have...a ward save (at least 5+) i know i ask for too much but as Red said 20 models cap sucks :/.I proxied black guard many times to test them and they died so fast even from str 3 models...so i ended up with spears and 2x12 cold one units

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:10 pm

The BGs are worth something for sure, although it depends a lot on your armor composition whether you should take it or not. If you have corsairs and/or witch elves, you might need something else in your army. I once went with Corsairs, Witch Elves and Blackguard in the same army once, everyone at the same size (21, 7 wide), and had a master in the BG unit. The corsairs did worse of the three, while the witch elves was the clear winner of my matches...

In those matches I had with the BGs, I felt like they just don't do enough. The cold one knights, hydras, witch elves, executioners and even spear elves have all been "game changers" to me, meaning that they did almost all the work and won me the matches in previous battles. I've not had that with the BGs yet, as they have fewer attacks than the witch elves as well as no poison.

The main reason I'd take the BGs now, would be to have them as a deathstar kind of unit. Putting an Exec lord in it, have Hag Graef banner with them and maybe some magic defenses. With a metal sorceress, you can get 3+ armor on them and a 5+ from the cauldron... And if you manage to get ring of darkness into the unit, you end up with something that can soak damage and strike harder than almost anything else out there... well, witch elves with mindrazor kills everything better :p

The reason I think spear elves can be better, is that they will get steadfast due to a lot more numbers against most foes, and as you have plenty to take from, you can survive a Vampire Lord munching through your ranks long enough to get KB and kill him off... the BGs would just get slaughtered before they manage to strike with KB. Still, the BGs has a much better offensive power against many other things.

New to the game · Post by **New to the game** » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:47 am

Hi,
As being brand new here and to wfb I don't want be to the annoying noob.

However after doing much reading up and trying to formulate a list, based few things, I have came to this.

I wanted to run 15-20 BG unsure on gear at this time. To support my 25 -30 executors. Stick them on a side to prevent flank attacks, also either unit provides mutual support to one another right? Or is this bad idea.

Druchiishootlord · Post by **Druchiishootlord** » Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:21 am

Black Guard have always been best, at least in my area, as either a main combat force or a speed bump.

In all honesty I don't have much to add apart from everything that everyone else has so I will just give what I have from experience.

Black Guard in my area have always been run in formations of 17 with full command and some kind of magic banner. Put this unit beside a few chariots, a hydra, and another big block of something the choices of whom to target start to get hairy for the opponent.

With 2 attacks and re-rolling every turn being naturally inclined to offense is how they've been used. Usually having some kind of offensive character they're thrown at the strongest units, or allowed to be charged, and let the opponent get stuck on them. This is particularly useful with a CoB giving out a 5+ ward to them. This allows you to play aggressive defense. Aggressively move them forward against one of the biggest and gnarliest enemy units to prevent it from going anywhere.

So here's the typical unit that I saw played to good effect:

x17 Black Guard: Full Command and Standard of Hag Graef

With even the smallest assistance to protect them from missile/magic fire they'll do themselves just fine.

Post by **Daeron** » Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:48 am

That's a peculiar setup DruchiiShootLord. You use the ASF banner for BGs?
I would be inclined not to take such a banner because BGs already have a high initiative and rerolls on their hits. This means ASF only contributes against armies with similar initiative.. say.. High Elves, demons?

Against what armies do you really feel the benefit from that banner on BGs?

Tyrannus deathbringer · Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:31 pm

@ executioner of khaine

Just a point on the original question.

It seems as if you are using Black Guard as a support block for your Execs which may account for their lukewarm performance in your games.

I tend to use BG and Execs as an either/or choice as my elite infantry. Execs perform better for me against enemies like Chaos, BG against High Elves.

The other special slots go to shades (commandos), COKs (mobile assault) or Witches (anti-horde/high toughness). I find taking from these other special choices best supports my elite infantry.

When running an elite Black Guard unit I find useful:
- magic items like Ring of Darkness, the S6 halberd or the ironcurse icon
- main focus of the cauldron ward early in the game
- magic banners like murder or razor, or alternatively flaming for building assault
- run them wider than the enemy unit they are up against if feasible
- protect them from enemy shooting through positioning and use of your other troops

@ new to the game

It is possible to run both Execs and BG if you want to grind your opponent down in h-t-h. However as I have said above I dont find it the best synergy from amongst our army options.

Look to the battle reports section or ask questions of players who use this setup for advice. (personally I have never ran these two troop types in tandem, although I would like to try it out at somepoint)

Lordn00b · Post by **Lordn00b** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:59 pm

I love running Black Guard, they are always underestimated because there are always so few of them. The beauty doesn't come from them killing lots of things or scaring the crap out of your opponent as it does with execs. The beauty is that they are understated and bloody reliable.

Unless you square them up against something mingy they should get a couple of kills a go and if you loose combat res, so what. Unless you are very unlucky they aren't going anywhere. This also means that they are pretty good points denial as you usually end up with some left.

I really like Black Guard as you can run them Vanilla and they will do something in any scenario be it holding up a unit, acting as a bodyguard, finishing off something, securing a flank. If you want a versatile army Black Guard are for you as they will be better than average at anything.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:03 pm

Interesting perspective LordNOOB. In my gaming group they are usually over estimated, with the result that they are arrow-magnets (quite literally if I play against high elves). I suppose it depends on your group meta.

Druchiishootlord · Post by **Druchiishootlord** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:57 pm

@Daeron: My particular neck of the woods has always relied upon elite combat units to do the job. I'm guilty of this if you look at my Dwarf/DE combat lists. As well, no one plays with tailored lists around here. Everyone plays with All Comer lists. It's always been a general thought around here that to have multiple tailored lists for general play is a bit of a crutch. The one exception being when everyone is preparing and tweaking for tournaments. With all of that said that should explain the use of the ASF on the BG. Just in case you run across a character or a unit of similar initiative. When acting as a character bunker this is used more for the character's benefit than the units. This has never been my own personal view.

Of course my personal set up has always been AP on the BG. The ASF has gone on the Executioners in order for them to work a tad more efficiently instead of striking last. The BG don't need assistance hitting and butchering lightly armored units so the AP goes in to helping against more heavily armored units. The AP is also there to help if I have to put the blessing from the Cauldron elsewhere at a particular time. If I can put the KB on them for heavily armed perfect. In concert against a horde unit and giving them 3 attacks each...Skaven and Goblins come to mind here but that has also worked well for me against Ogres. 3 S4 AP attacks eliminates a lot of armor. If on a 6 wide front with a Master (for example) you have 20 attacks in the front rank and 6 more supporting. Not too shabby.

Black guard worth anything?

Black guard worth anything?

Black Guardians

Optimising Elite Infantry