Tactics vs the new Warriors of Chaos

[Omnichron]

That is why the hero level on Demonic mount are very popular.
5t, 3w, +1 save, 3+ ward, for about 250 points is tasty.

Yes, I expect to see this setup in almost all the lists from WoC. They are too good to not take... and harder than most lord choices other races have. The one I've seen the most is the Nurgle one with GW, 1+/2+ armor, 3++ ward with reroll 1's. He's extremely hard to kill and with 4 attacks + the 2 attacks from his mount, he can lash out damage.

The good thing about this build is that his mount will attack first and has a good chance to kill the champ, which means a nice little challenge from a champ or two, and you'll probably not get hit that hard or that much... and then you should be able to win the combat.

A good WoC player won't send him out on his own though.

[Gidean]

That is why the hero level on Demonic mount are very popular.
5t, 3w, +1 save, 3+ ward, for about 250 points is tasty.

they can be backed up by a Daemon prince for some magic or twin DP for some insane list, or any thing in troop choices.

Indeed, I am currently in a battle with a Vampire Counts army. My nurgle sorcerer on a demon steed has survived TWO rounds of a challenge with Vamp lord with standard quickblood/red fury combo. Helps that I got a little help from curse of the leper driving my Socrerer up to T8 for those two rounds...

[Hoth247]

Hi I charge Deamon Prince - nurgle ,1+as,ward 3+,re-rool 1,magic weapon st 6.,with my master on
pegasus,POK,dragon helm,lance.He survive 10 cc turns,and the batlle end with 1 wound.

[Zenith]

Hi I charge Deamon Prince - nurgle ,1+as,ward 3+,re-rool 1,magic weapon st 6.,with my master on
pegasus,POK,dragon helm,lance.He survive 10 cc turns,and the batlle end with 1 wound.

You can't forever rely on a stupid item like the pendant. First of all it wil be removed when we are redone, what will by all rumours, not be to far away. and secondly the pendant is just one item. Chaos can make several 3++ builds. The makers of their new armybook were problebly stoned or kids to create that. All such items like that should be banned.

[Omnichron]

Deamon Prince - nurgle ,1+as,ward 3+,re-rool 1,magic weapon st 6.

That build is illegal in every way... so, he cheated if he went with that actual setup.

DP can only get 5++ ward as he can only take 25 pts of magical equipment, and the reroll 1 wards is tzeentch specific gift so a nurgle DP can't take that one.

A tzeentch exalted or lord can get 3++ and reroll 1's... and they are closer to immortal than our lord build as they get those wards in most situations as well as having high stats so those who remove from game due to failed stat rolls rarely kill those characters.

As WoC got even stronger character builds than they had earlier, we might not get that much toned down either.

[Daeron]

A tzeentch exalted or lord can get 3++ and reroll 1's... and they are closer to immortal than our lord build as they get those wards in most situations as well as having high stats so those who remove from game due to failed stat rolls rarely kill those characters.

Certainly the POK has less coverage in sources it saves you against, but it can save for more. The 3+ WS with a reroll on 1 is weaker than a 2+ WS or inverse 5- WS.

[Hoth247]

Deamon Prince - nurgle ,1+as,ward 3+,re-rool 1,magic weapon st 6.

That build is illegal in every way... so, he cheated if he went with that actual setup.

DP can only get 5++ ward as he can only take 25 pts of magical equipment, and the reroll 1 wards is tzeentch specific gift so a nurgle DP can't take that one.

A tzeentch exalted or lord can get 3++ and reroll 1's... and they are closer to immortal than our lord build as they get those wards in most situations as well as having high stats so those who remove from game due to failed stat rolls rarely kill those characters.

As WoC got even stronger character builds than they had earlier, we might not get that much toned down either.

Hi You are right he cheated,another cheat he had four Wizardl evels.

[Burizan]

A tzeentch exalted or lord can get 3++ and reroll 1's... and they are closer to immortal than our lord build as they get those wards in most situations as well as having high stats so those who remove from game due to failed stat rolls rarely kill those characters.

Certainly the POK has less coverage in sources it saves you against, but it can save for more. The 3+ WS with a reroll on 1 is weaker than a 2+ WS or inverse 5- WS.

While the ward save in combat itself might prevent 25% more damage, a soulrender setup wounds 25% less often, others do even less damage. Tzeentch "unkillables" can do more damage and survive longer than us, except against OTS. Biggest weakness is Ld, and prolonged/lucky magic/shooting can still get him.


@Hoth: you can get 4 wizard levels on a DP

[Hoth247]

A tzeentch exalted or lord can get 3++ and reroll 1's... and they are closer to immortal than our lord build as they get those wards in most situations as well as having high stats so those who remove from game due to failed stat rolls rarely kill those characters.

Certainly the POK has less coverage in sources it saves you against, but it can save for more. The 3+ WS with a reroll on 1 is weaker than a 2+ WS or inverse 5- WS.

While the ward save in combat itself might prevent 25% more damage, a soulrender setup wounds 25% less often, others do even less damage. Tzeentch "unkillables" can do more damage and survive longer than us, except against OTS. Biggest weakness is Ld, and prolonged/lucky magic/shooting can still get him.


@Hoth: you can get 4 wizard levels on a DP

Nurgle 4 wizard levels on a DP?

[Burizan]

Yup, 4 levels in any lore corresponding to the mark. For nurgle this means nurgle/death.

[Omnichron]

Certainly the POK has less coverage in sources it saves you against, but it can save for more. The 3+ WS with a reroll on 1 is weaker than a 2+ WS or inverse 5- WS.

While the ward save in combat itself might prevent 25% more damage, a soulrender setup wounds 25% less often, others do even less damage. Tzeentch "unkillables" can do more damage and survive longer than us, except against OTS. Biggest weakness is Ld, and prolonged/lucky magic/shooting can still get him.

Burizan has the right of it. And as they have better armor, better toughness and can regain wounds as well as dealing more damage, they are simple stronger... Our PoK is better in close combats and shots with S5+, but more importantly we get it cheaper. The drawback is that it's easier to handle.

[Atanatari165]

Hi I charge Deamon Prince - nurgle ,1+as,ward 3+,re-rool 1,magic weapon st 6.,with my master on
pegasus,POK,dragon helm,lance.He survive 10 cc turns,and the batlle end with 1 wound.

You can't forever rely on a stupid item like the pendant. First of all it wil be removed when we are redone, what will by all rumours, not be to far away. and secondly the pendant is just one item. Chaos can make several 3++ builds. The makers of their new armybook were problebly stoned or kids to create that. All such items like that should be banned.

I know how you feel, however I suspect that without such good ward saves you would see rarely see combat characters used by elite armies. They are actually quite fragile given how many points they are worth. Our usual pendant peg lord is 300 pts. Suppose the pendant was changed to a 4+ ward for 35 pts (still a good deal). Now imagine you are fighting him and a unit of 65 spearmen (also worth about 400 pts). Who do you allocate attacks too? The lord of course, do 12 S6 wounds and you get 400 pts! Not to mention denying the enemy their inspiring presence and whatever items he has. The spears have 65 wounds!

In my experience it is only the combination of the ward with their other protection that makes these characters seem so tough (our pendant lord, their 3++ rerollable 1s, VC lord with trickster's helm and 4++) , not the ward alone. If you just land a bunch of high S hits on them to cut through that toughness and armor they die in a couple rounds.

Will they remove the pendant in our new book? I doubt it, it is such a signature Dark Elf item. Scouring the world for powerful items is part of our racial history and lore (e.g. Malekith's crown). Also GW has to realize that elf combat characters wouldn't be viable without items like that. I think it will get a small nerf (5+ always fails) and a hefty points increase.

We also have alternatives. Armor of destiny or armor of eternal servitude plus dawnstone on a cold one for 1+ 1+ 4++ is almost as good as the pendant (87.5% vs. 91.7% chance of saving a S6 wound). Even just 1+ 1+ 5++ (from cauldron) gets you to 83%, and that is really easy for us to get.

[Clockwork]

The WoC Prince makes me a sad panda. Everything else in the new book, even the unkillable Tzeentch Lord, I don't fear nearly so much.

You can't run from it, because it flies. You can't beat it in combat, because of high WS, armour and Nurgle. You can't shoot it off, because of high Toughness, high armour save,, flight, and a cheap magic item. You can't magic it off, because it either has the stats to reduce all nuke spells to a 1/6 chance, or a 5 point item makes it near invulnerable. You can't break it in combat, because its unbreakable.

Here we finally have a model with no hard counter. The general argument seems to be a) cannon it (great if you have cannons), or b) but it costs so many points (as if it can't earn all that back).

I have resolved for both my armies, Dark Elves and Lizardmen, to throw something in its path that can tarpit it for 4 turns whilst the rest of our armies get on with the actual game. Dawn Stone Scar-Veterans on Cold Ones and Pegasus Pendant Lords do the trick nicely.

Meanwhile, I'm eagerly anticipating the High Elf release to see what tools they get which can be used against it, as this can prempt our own book. Specifically, I'm going to be very interested to see what they do with Repeater Bolt Throwers.

[Phierlihy]

My Supreme Sorceress with the Black Amulet and Dark Magic killed one...ok, it killed itself trying to kill her, over two turns. He never saw it coming!

[Tyrannus deathbringer]

Meanwhile, I'm eagerly anticipating the High Elf release to see what tools they get which can be used against it, as this can prempt our own book. Specifically, I'm going to be very interested to see what they do with Repeater Bolt Throwers.

There is a rumour they are getting a warmachine that functions as both a flamethrower and a super-bolt thrower (might be dual kit). In addition to the bolt thrower on the flying chariot.

Dont know how accurate this rumour is, but we shall soon see....

[Clockwork]

If it heralds bolt throwers on Cold One Chariots, then I'm in

[Harkonnen]

The WoC Prince makes me a sad panda. Everything else in the new book, even the unkillable Tzeentch Lord, I don't fear nearly so much.

You can't run from it, because it flies. You can't beat it in combat, because of high WS, armour and Nurgle. You can't shoot it off, because of high Toughness, high armour save,, flight, and a cheap magic item. You can't magic it off, because it either has the stats to reduce all nuke spells to a 1/6 chance, or a 5 point item makes it near invulnerable. You can't break it in combat, because its unbreakable.

Here we finally have a model with no hard counter. The general argument seems to be a) cannon it (great if you have cannons), or b) but it costs so many points (as if it can't earn all that back).

Honestly, the 2 most OP parts about the demon prince are:
1. that it will be a lvl 4 wizard for very cheap (imo) 140 points (allowing death snipes and purple sunning while raping stuff in the safety of CC --> no cannonfire, even if you have m)
2. That it's unbreakable on top of all the above, so not only can it CC anything, it also doesn't have to worry about losing combat because of fluffing, ever, at all ;/

[Omnichron]

The daemon prince is a hard nut to crack, but he is a LOT of points. You can get 4 RBTs for those points, and all those bolts will kill him for sure.

The master on pegasus with pendant isn't even half the cost for a lvl 4 DP, and he'll keep him occupied and might even kill the DP.

Anything we have in close combat can take the challenge from a DP, standing because of steadfast and then you can do the infamous mindrazor and kill the DP outright... Cheesy and easy.

There's actually many ways to kill the DP. Just look at him as a greater daemon with good armor... that didn't sound very reassuring I guess :p

[Harkonnen]

The daemon prince is a hard nut to crack, but he is a LOT of points. You can get 4 RBTs for those points, and all those bolts will kill him for sure.

The master on pegasus with pendant isn't even half the cost for a lvl 4 DP, and he'll keep him occupied and might even kill the DP.

well, it's possible, but not so very likely.. yeah we got a 2+ ward from the pendant, but in close combat the figure is as follows.. for us (say u give pegmaster greatweapon); 3 atks, hitting on 5s(sigh), wounding on 3s, then he has 4+5++ left to save. While he will have 5 atks, hitting on 2s(lol sword of striking), wounding on 2s --> we have 5+2++. Well it all depends on not rolling those 6s but i can tell you from experience it can go wrong pretty fast; If we roll a 6 3 times we go poof, and if less, theres a good chance we lose combat too cos of only hitting only on 5s.
Edit: i forgot the horsie^^ 2atks hit on 6s, wound on 5s, 2+6++saves

And don't forget, the DP isnt "unhappy" to be in combat, he really isn't..... The most important thing I think, if you want to stall him with an anvil char as you are saying, the position in which you stall him being such that he can't effectively use his magic anymore. But its often not us who can decide that, he's still flying....

[Omnichron]

Yes, it's an uphill battle that the master is most likely to lose in the end... the question is how long you can hold on and what other stuff you can do to him while the master hold the monster at bay.

Slaanesh DP is even worse to deal with than the nurgle one imo... easier to kill in close combat if you get in with what you want, but because the random move spells destroying your whole gameplan I think it's a much harder choice to meet for the whole battle.

WoC is a top tier army now imo, and I fear the double DP nurgle list more than the one with lots of magic. Those together with double skullcrushers and a unit of nurgle warriors with GW and lots of chariots... there is no easy ways of dealing with the WoC, and I think we might see more of them in the top spots soon enough.

I look forward to the result list of SCGT... I hope those from my club will take the top spots, they certainly will bring lots of pain with their lists!

[Harkonnen]

Ye slaanesh lore is good, but death lore certainly isn't bad.. maybe not the best vs De, but devastating against some other armys for sure...

[Omnichron]

Ye slaanesh lore is good, but death lore certainly isn't bad.. maybe not the best vs De, but devastating against some other armys for sure...

Yeah, death lore is great for the nurgle DP. No question about that, especially against Ogres, Lizardmen, Undeads and against characters with some weaknesses (like our low T and S).

[Burizan]

A quick note: Nurgle characters cannot achieve a 3+ ward save. Daemonic Mounts are great, but they mean a low armour save: 3+ basic or 4+ if they are using armour of destiny - ie they don't have a DP.

The best tool we have vs daemon prince is Rendbane Assassin, followed by bolt throwers. A pegasus character with soulrender can finish off a wounded DP. Miscasts seem to kill DPs more than anything else - ring of hotek might be good but is far from reliable. At least it can give you a 12" bubble a DP will steer clear from. This protects from magic - Slaanesh DPs can't nuke an area and if a DP is bogged down in combat you can keep within 12" easily.

Slaanesh DPs are the most dangerous, Nurgle DPs are the toughest. Lore of Death is my favourite (with WoC and Dark Elves!) as a well positioned purple sun that any flier can achieve will wipe out a low I army, and can still net 250+pt monsters or several war machines. The sniping spells are dangerous against druchii. Doom and darkness is very effective for a DP in combat to break stubborn units, and soulblight can have a significant impact on any combat. Death magic is tricky to get to grips with, it has erratic but game-changing results.

[Atanatari165]

A quick note: Nurgle characters cannot achieve a 3+ ward save. Daemonic Mounts are great, but they mean a low armour save: 3+ basic or 4+ if they are using armour of destiny - ie they don't have a DP.

Maybe I'm not understanding you, but my friend brings a BSB on Daemonic Mount with 1+ 3++. Chaos armor, shield, Daemonic Mount with barding, ToP, MoT. With Armor of Destiny it would be 2+ 3++. Using a 2-handed weapon its 2+ 3++ or 3+ 3++.

[Burizan]

He's Tzeentch, not Nurgle. And it is possible but kinda retarded to put a shield on that hero instead of a great weapon, if he does take a shield then count your blessings! The barding for daemonic mount is pricey: 3+ is therefore "basic", with any upgrade costing a large number of points or sacrificing significantly better gear.