The optimal size of Cold One Knights

[Saintofm]

What it says on the tin: What is a good size to run cold one knights and not say: I'm asking to be masacurecd, but instead: I will kill you and all that you hold dear!

So what's a good size with characters, ith out, with one character, with 2 or 3?

[Lorddrittz]

I have been running 2 units of 5 CoK with nothing (135pts each) keeping them as cheap throw away units.

The problem is they have tied up units for a while but have done very little damage.

However in this role our Chariots may be almost as good and cheaper at 100pts each.

So now I have gone to a larger CoK unit with BSB and Dreadlord in it (2 Magic Banners). I would say minimum size 8 but preferably 10-14 depending on the points level of the game.

An in between amount might be 9 CoK with BSB.

[L1qw1d]

When I run heavy I run 12, when I run light I run 7. I do the extra two for a projected kill in the first rounds

[Paricidas]

10, with FC, Banner of Hag Graef and a Magic weapon for the Champion.
Costs around 400 Points and deals quite a Punch, unfortunatly it draws enemy fire like mad...

[Saintofm]

@ Oaricidas: That's what I normally do, but the last game I played said I ran small

[Killerk]

I've tested different set up's. All work incredibly well with the CoB present in the army. But play a different role.

1. A multi purpose tool.
5 with music. Has a strong charge, but is cheep enough that you can sacrifice easily. Also hitting a flank of a unit you can hold it out for a turn, until reinforcements can arrive.

2. Shock troop
People use different sizes. The most cost effective and by far the best IMHO is 11 with banner of swiftness and music, accompanied by a Hydra banner BSB.
With the COb blessing the unit dishes out almost 40 attack's, enough to take down most hordes. Also comes at a cost of 550 point (bsb included), rather high price, but considering the damage it dishes out well worth it. Also it's cheep enough to fit a lot more in the list.
The banner of swiftness is essential for the unit to work, that extra 1" gives you enormous tactical advantages.

3. Shock troop 2
12 with AP banner and Full comand, Champ with crimson death.
A good unit, comes at 414.

4. good on paper, but less on the field.
10 full command and ASF banner. it is good overall, but for some reason armies even in the hands of good players tend to under preform.

[Lordn00b]

An in between amount might be 9 CoK with BSB.

This is what I run with, anymore tends to be a bit of a point sink. I love the COKs at this level and the only time they have let me down is when they have failed a stupidity test twice, or when I haven't used them properly i.e. held them back or run into a horde of nasties.

[Mrdark12]

I tent to run with 10 Knights, they haven recently started letting me down (Failing three stupid tests in a row) but I've never had them fail, whatever they hit, they break it open, WS5 S6 on the charge with hate, and if you buff them with a CoB or take them with a BSB hydra banner (Though I normally run ASF banner on exies)

[van Awful]

either this one

2. Shock troop
People use different sizes. The most cost effective and by far the best IMHO is 11 with banner of swiftness and music, accompanied by a Hydra banner BSB.
With the COb blessing the unit dishes out almost 40 attack's, enough to take down most hordes. Also comes at a cost of 550 point (bsb included), rather high price, but considering the damage it dishes out well worth it. Also it's cheep enough to fit a lot more in the list.
The banner of swiftness is essential for the unit to work, that extra 1" gives you enormous tactical advantages.

, or 2 smaller units of 6 or 5 with just a musician.

[Atanatari165]

I'm always surprised how effective they are. They aren't that great on their own, but they synergize very well with the cauldron, as +1 attack doubles their damage, and 2+ 5++ is a fantastic save.

A unit of 5 with musician only can be an effective hammer, with 10 WS9 S6 attacks with re-rolls on the charge. However, this won't break a lot of the units I have to deal with on a regular basis, like a unit of 4 or 5 demis/skullcrushers. These MC units tend to run 3 or 4 wide, so you want your knights 8 or 10 wide to maximize attacks with the cauldron buff. Therefore I've been running 8-10 with full command, ASF banner and potion of strength (BRB version) on the champ.

9 knights (including champ) with cauldron buff give you 21 attacks vs. a 200mm target (4 wide MC). With mount attacks added in that should do 8 wounds and ensure you kill 2 models, taking away their steadfast. If they don't, next round the champ can drink the potion for 3 S7 ASF attacks.

[Omnichron]

I like my 10 with the ASF banner and whip of agony.

Yes, quite costy, but you get quite the punch, and your cold ones can strike before your opponent as well. Extra S4 attacks is always nice, and since your knights have I6, you mostly get to reroll your hits after the initial round of close combat (Which is nice when you get charged by a bloodthirster, challenge him with your champ and then get your round where you need to get lots of hits with your mindrazored knights before he kills your knights off).

Small units works quite well too, however I think the chariot works better at a minimum cost kind of level... well, better on the charge at least

[Daeron]

I've been quite surprised by the performance of the Banner of Hag Graef on COKs... So much, in fact, that I'm puzzled to see such a contradicting view as from KillerK. I understand the arguments, but perhaps there is an issue with skill in this case? Meaning.. I don't have the skill to make as good use of the same unit and the banner of hag graef simply makes the unit easier to use. I do need more experience with the unit. A lot more.

[Omnichron]

Well, we all have our opinions on how well things work. Personally I don't like the BSB with hydra banner in such a unit as it's a lot of points with almost no protection against sniping magic (Which there is quite a lot of in my current meta at least).

You can also get that hydra BSB in a ASF COK unit. I haven't tried that one out yet

[Atanatari165]

Well, we all have our opinions on how well things work. Personally I don't like the BSB with hydra banner in such a unit as it's a lot of points with almost no protection against sniping magic (Which there is quite a lot of in my current meta at least).

You can also get that hydra BSB in a ASF COK unit. I haven't tried that one out yet

The Hydra banner unit I've used is this:

Hydra banner BSB on a cold one with full mundane (lance) 214 pts
11 knights with FC, Standard of Hag Graef, Champ has Null Talisman and Potion of Foolhardiness 392 pts
606 pts total

with 5+ ward from cauldron, they have 4+ ward vs. snipes. Together with a dispel scroll he should survive a few snipe attempts. Then switch to extra attack buff when you go for a charge.

I think this is the most powerful single unit we can field, you can add characters for even more damage but even without them the charge from this unit will kill almost anything. Its putting out more damage than a horde of white lions, and at higher initiative! However, its vulnerable to getting charged, especially in the flank. Its only 11 knights so its easy to whittle down. The BSB is relatively unprotected. I kind of think you need to add the dreadlord in this unit for it to work, because then he can make way and smash any flankers.

However, I've found that the hydra banner unit tends to eventually get stuck fighting something it can't break through with just its S4 attacks.

So I was thinking, for about the same points you can get:
10 knights with musician 278 pts
10 knights with musician 278 pts

Actually costs less than the Hydra knight unit. The two units can cover each other. Position one so it can countercharge anything likely to charge the other. Put stubborn lord in the lead unit if necessary to ensure it doesn't break. I haven't tried this yet but i'm planning to soon.

[Daeron]

The Hydra Banner BSB costs 214 points in your example. Adding a COB for 200 points gives the unit a 5+ ward save.

How about replacing the Hydra BSB by a COB bsb and running with 2 COBs? Combining the blessing of 5+ ward save and +1 attack, you get pretty much the same performance. Of course, you can't combine both +1 A from the COB and the +1 A from the Hydra Banner... but before you even see combat, that second COB buff can be used to protect a second unit. Or can a unit recieve only 1 buff at a time?
That second COB might be less vulnerable than the Hydra Banner BSB.

[Omnichron]

How about replacing the Hydra BSB by a COB bsb and running with 2 COBs? Combining the blessing of 5+ ward save and +1 attack...

Unfortunately, only one blessing can be put on a unit, no matter what kind of blessing it is.

Hydra and ASF banner with the unit will be very strong, however the more pts you add to the unit the more it has to do... and it'll be a magnet to lots of firepower/spells. Just think about the new slaanesh lores for WoC and DoC... random move d6 on that unit will be a huge pain in the somewhat stinky place.

I guess I'll try it a couple of times, but I don't think it'll be my usual setup

[Atanatari165]

Yeah, already have one cauldron for 5+ ward out of combat, and extra attack in combat. But you would be right, the 2nd cauldron would be better, if only you could double up buffs. But boy would that be broken =).

Last night I was thinking it might be best to drop the hydra banner in favor of just making the unit larger.

Say, 18 cold one knights with FC, Standard of Hag Gaef, and Null Talisman: 576 pts. My theory is, the one unit doesn't have enough models to last the game. The two units are each too vulnerable, and without ASF they are not good for mindrazoring. A 2nd rank of attacks is almost as good as the hydra banner.

By the way, does anyone have any tips on modeling these guys so they rank up? The tails are so long mine can't even begin to rank up unless I put the back rank models between the front rank models.

[Dalamar]

You have to model the unit with an assumption of a certain formation in mind.
Say if you have 10 and go 5x5, then 5 knights will be at a slight angle, so the cold one heads fit between the tails of the rank in front of them.
Or you can glue front rank far forward on their bases, and back rank on the back of their bases. Either way it will be pretty obvious which models should be in the back.

[Atanatari165]

You have to model the unit with an assumption of a certain formation in mind.
Say if you have 10 and go 5x5, then 5 knights will be at a slight angle, so the cold one heads fit between the tails of the rank in front of them.
Or you can glue front rank far forward on their bases, and back rank on the back of their bases. Either way it will be pretty obvious which models should be in the back.

Thanks, when I assembled them I was planning on units of 6...

[Harkonnen]

I would like some opinions on this specific subject, in a specific situation..

Say, you want to field a unit of CoK's with a hydra BSB master to buff them; but no COB; a shadow lvl 4 with sac dagger will be present(so possibility of mindrazor/shadow debuffs). Again I don't want to field a COB.
In this case, what would the ideal size for the COKS be? And also importantly, what command / banner to put with them?

The rest of the army looks abit like this: Like i said a SD lvl 4, a lvl 1 metal with scroll, pegmaster, medium sized unit of corsairs with hbows (and possibly rendbane assassin), unit of black guard with mus as anvil (possibly with murder banner), hydra, some harpies/riders/witches, 1 RBT, some xbowmen, optional some shades.

Ive been considering 7 plus the hydraBSB, with mus and champ (carrying luckstone, dragongem for challenges). Run them 8 wide if there is space. Including a banner makes it even more expensive and I don't know if +1 movement is worth 29 points.

Is this any good? Problems I see is protecting them, and especially the BSB. Then again, like this they are not so expensive (the unit being 223 pts, the hydraBSB 214..). would going 9 + BSB be better? or 11? But what formation then 2x5/2x6? IMO it will attract even more attention and wardsave from couldron (+magic resist?) becomes a must? --> Making them that much more expensive...

They will function abit like a "defensive" hammer unit in my list, i would imagine.
Is this viable or should i not consider going hydraBSB/Cok's if i dont go "all out" on the unit with cob etc... Is it then better to just drop the hydra BSB and go with 6 with mus, as cheap flank unit?

[Setomidor]

The boring answer is that I can't really see it working without a CoB (which you apparently do not want to bring. ). The reason is simple; without the 5++ ward your knights are simply too vulnerable against a lot of things, and you will struggle to keep them alive. This also goes for the BSB, who normally depends on the 5++ from Cauldron (preferably combined with MR(3)) to survive things like Snipes.

7 is definitely too few, and against cunning/cannon opponents your BSB will be shot dead very fast (kill two knights with magic -> no Look-out sir -> dead BSB from cannon). If you want the BSB to go in there you need at least 10 other knights to help him survive.

[Harkonnen]

Hehe, thanks for the fast reply.
I guess not getting LOS for the bsb after 2 dead knights is kindof a problem, yeah.

So i figure it's better to spend the 450 points elsewhere, or bring only 6+mus without hydrabsb then, in my case, and have like 250 points to spend elsewhere.
By the way general opinion on these forums seems to be that the hydra banner is, in fact, overpriced - correct?

Well reason for not bringing a COB is that firstly I dont have one, secondly it doesn't bring much to the rest of my army And i find it expensive... If i would bring a corsair horde though i would definately consider one, but that's a wholly different list...

[Red...]

6 or 7 works great for me. Buffed by the cauldron on a pivotal turn they can put out a lot of attacks at a high weapon skill and high strength (assuming they got the charge) without becoming a points sync. If my opponent focuses on killing the Knights then he is not focusing on my other heavy hitters, but if he complacently ignores them then they can be a real thorn in his side and even a potential game winner with a well timed charge at a pivotal moment.

[Harkonnen]

Okay, but you mean 6 or 7 without an added hydraBSB then, right? So you would keep them small, cheap and expendable, but with situational support from the couldron.
What command do you give them, only a musician?

[Atanatari165]

Hehe, thanks for the fast reply.
I guess not getting LOS for the bsb after 2 dead knights is kindof a problem, yeah.

So i figure it's better to spend the 450 points elsewhere, or bring only 6+mus without hydrabsb then, in my case, and have like 250 points to spend elsewhere.
By the way general opinion on these forums seems to be that the hydra banner is, in fact, overpriced - correct?

Well reason for not bringing a COB is that firstly I dont have one, secondly it doesn't bring much to the rest of my army And i find it expensive... If i would bring a corsair horde though i would definately consider one, but that's a wholly different list...

I think you always want at least 10 models in a knight unit, including any characters. Less than that just doesn't have enough punch, especially if you aren't even buffing them with the cauldron.

The hydra banner isn't overpriced, its an awesome item, its just that with no magic items a 2 wound elf BSB isn't going to last long. The CoB gives us exactly what our army lacks: durability. It also synergies with knights very well since they only have 1 attack. It basically gives you the same effect as the Hydra banner, while also protecting the unit during early turns, and buffing other units when the knights don't need it. It costs about the same, it is way more durable, it makes your army more durable, and it is fluffy, what's not to like?

I would only use the hydra banner after already bringing a cauldron of blood, the two together plus some characters make for a really powerful deathstar.