Deployment and Terrain use examples

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Meteor
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Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Meteor »

Hi, this is made mainly for iamghost who wanted to learn a bit about what to do, how to deploy, and how to navigate an army through various warhammer terrain to gain the best positions and/or arrive as unscathed by enemy fire as possible.

My work is based around the two roughly 2000pts army lists iamghost posted as examples, Forum link here, and I'll be using mostly diagrams to explain things.

Here's an example battle simulation. Enemy army is played with a little less thought so ideas can be delivered, which is the purpose of this simulation.


Deployment

First of all, generate your own 2000pts list, now, how would you deploy against this line-up? Let's say the SS is using Dark Magic, and Sorc is using Fire.


Enemy list;
Lv4 SS
Lv2 S
CoB
28 SM
16 RxB
20 Corsairs
5 Harpies
7 CoK
30 Execs
Hydra



















Image

I think I accidentally gave the deployment a hammer on both flanks with an anvil supporting each one (corsairs and SM). So much for less thought.



Below is my deployment solution for the main list. I like using just half of a deployment zone as much as possible, keep things close and compact. But mainly to keep the WE away from the RxBs. You can see the WE are a little less forward so the body of SM can shelter them better as they advance towards the enemy. CoB is kept central, SS is kept near the middle of the army, both for their invaluable auras. BG are deployed on the far flank because they can hold their own, and will be a great threat lurking and threatening that flank. The idea is to rush forward and crash what's in front first and then mop up the rest of the enemy.


Image


Let's walk through a few turns and see what we can learn.


Our Turn 1

Let's say we go first, pretty much everything pushes forward, slowly and carefully. It'll be tricky setting up a charge against CoK and Hydra because they have faster movement, they have a better chance of successfully charging us than we can against them with our infantry. First turn is just some harass from shooting and magic. CoB probably give 5+ ward to WE just in case enemy manages to have a shot at them.

Image




Enemy Turn 1

Enemy turn, as I said, less thought out, more AI like perhaps? Either way, Hydra and CoK advances forward slowly too, using their superior movement to take advantage of the fact they can land a more successful double charge than we can. A thing to note here is the right flank is very out of position because we focused on one flank for deployment. Whilst it does expose our flank more, the enemy is spending time marching towards the battle, they're playing catch up already on turn 1. It's also a disadvantage for spreading your deployment across the entire map because of such an instance, not to mention there's less units the general and BSB can cover too. In hindsight, I shouldn't had pushed the purple block of spears that far forward. They're kind of 'over extended' now and are ruining the whole idea of making the enemy play catch up. Some arrows and pixie dust is sprinkled about for flavouring.

Image


Our Turn 2 -Redirecting to set up charges

We begin setting up charges by doing the following. We place our Harpies as such to throw the enemy Hydra out of sync, to force it out of supporting the CoK for a sure win combined charge. We push the BG forward to make sure they receive the CoK charge. (CoB will give BG a 5+ ward for sure!) Hydra moves forward a little, angles himself ready for the flank charge once the BG receives the CoK charge and holds them there. (They're stubborn so they're testing on rerollable Ld9, and with 20 bodies, they should survive and hold no problems). The 10 RxB in the forest pushes forward too, to redirect the Corsairs so they can't support the left flank. That's the left flank pretty much shut down, forcing the CoKs to fight on their own. The CoB also moves forward to ensure the Corsairs can't overrun into the flank of our Hydra too. WE moves forward and angles themselves to get ready to flank the Corsairs when they overrun into our CoB. You'll notice I pulled the spears back because as I said, I overextended them. If we have Word of Pain, that's our main spell we'd be saving the majority of our dice for, and to be cast on the CoKs so less BG will die on the charge! Preserving models is IMPORTANT!


Image


Enemy Turn 2 -Receiving end of redirects

Like any good AI, let's run through the scenario, Hydra charges and undoubtedly splats Harpies. If they're still alive, even better. Other charges are made and completed with final overrun results as shown. The enemy will also fly their Harpies forward. Now what'll you do? WE can't flank anymore, and if they charge, they'd be redirected because they're FRENZY!




Image



So beginning of Turn 3. What would you do about the right flank? It's good practice to find your own solution(s) first. Keep in mind mine isn't THE solution, it's what I'd do.


































Our Turn 3 -Sacrificing for the sake of redirecting, the plays unfold


Ok first of all, a mistake and so an apology. IGNORE the WE red arrows indicating they charged the Harpies. Only the Spears charged. Frenzy means WE MUST overrun, we don't want that. So they're going to be sitting there nice and patiently, restraining from charging, so that once the Harpies are out of the way, they can flank the corsairs. We're assuming the CoB is still holding because it has 4 wounds at 4+ ward against 10 models/turn. They shouldn't die just yet.

Anyway, so my solution is to push the ten RxBs on the right flank forward, as a sacrificial unit to force the supporting spears away from the fight. OUR spears, once they've dealt with the Harpies, will reform to receive the Exec charge and hold. If not, oh well. Word of Pain should be made sure to successfully cast on the Execs to defend against the impending slaughter. CoB will give BG Killing Blow to deal with the CoKs and ensure they die now that we have the Hydra in their flank. Assuming the CoKs died this turn from the flank charge and we didn't need to run them down from breaking in combat, the Hydra would reform to face the enemy Hydra. It could face the Corsairs instead, which would make the setup of WE on one flank and Hydra on the other flank, extremely devastating and like 80% chance of winning outright. But, enemy Hydra will easily flank you back, which probably will spell your Hydra's doom. So let's take the safer option.


Image



Enemy Turn 3

By rights, the CoKs should be dead. The Spears charge our RxBs, and just to show you the redirect play, you can see the overrun path leads them safely away from our spears. Let's say BG got really worn down, let's say down to 10 models. Enemy Hydra probably will charge them and mop up the rest of the unit. If one survives and holds, hooray, if not, the enemy Hydra could either stop overrunning for a Hydra vs Hydra face off (woot...) or if it's weaker or something, it can elect to overrun. What that does is, move itself out of the charge arc of our Hydra. Also our two mages hiding in the forest is now suddenly in danger too!

Image


From here on, it becomes too yucky to continue the demonstration. We don't know how the CoB is holding up, we don't know how the spears are holding up. What we've done is, present our WE the option to either help out the CoB, or the spears. I'd probably take out the Execs because they yield more points, although with enemy CoB around, they're stubborn and won't break because their leadership test is now unmodified! But still, T3 with 5+ AS without Hatred anymore, against a (should be) fresh unit of frenzied WE, which your CoB will give a +1A to. That's a lot of dead Executioners! Our Hydra probably will swing around and threaten the Corsair rear and Executioner flank at the same time. Something like that.

Hopefully this simulation has helped show what and why redirecting is so important. The enemy Hydra was taken out of the fight, the Corsairs were controlled too. At times you'll need to sacrifice those smaller non-Harpy unit(s) because you ran out of Harpies for the job. Weigh up when the time to do it is right, weigh up the points you're potentially trading, is it worth it? Morale of the story? You don't have enough Harpies, bring more next time.

Hopefully you get an idea of why I deployed all on one side and as clustered as possible. Note the SS should be in the left corner of the unit, not the middle. In the corners, she normally receives the fewest attacks, but mainly, she's now close to the centre of the army, important for being the General. You'll notice BSB is kept central too, and spears are great flank coverers, here, they're also shielding the WE from enemy fire.

I think it's easier to play by keeping Hydra paired with BG, and WE paired with spears in a fight. I think that's the best combo charges.

If people are interested in seeing further examples and have spare time, here is a link to a battle report I posted up (wow) two years ago, about my Core heavy list winning 1st place in a tournament. It's fairly detailed, picture heavy too, and fairly accurate so you might pick up some stuff there while I work on more examples. Core Heavy list battle reports
Last edited by Meteor on Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Meteor
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Meteor »

Reserved
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Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued
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Meteor
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Meteor »

Reserved
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued
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Meteor
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Meteor »

Reserved
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued
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Dalamar
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Dalamar »

On Turn 3, when Spearmen charged the harpies, harpies fold up to the middle one, so they are not so stretched anymore. Now you can safely declare a charge with witch elves into the flank of corsairs. (Skirmishers bunch up into ranks as soon as they declare "hold" reaction)

Other than that, and the fact that small unit of knights braved a charge against a full block of infantry from the front and unsupported (they could've safely waited for the Hydra to finish its lunch on harpies, it would be only 1" out of position)... but I'll chalk that up on the "AI" mode ;)
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Tyrannus deathbringer
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Tyrannus deathbringer »

Meteor,

This article is.....meteoric! 8)

Thanks for going to the trouble of writing it all up for our new member iamghost. I found if very useful, and I am sure it will be beneficial for many readers, not just recent sign-ups;


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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Meteor »

Haha yes Dala, it is 'AI' mode, and yeah Harpies would bunch up, leave me alone..it was done between 2-4am in the morning hahaha
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by iamghost »

OMG. I mean, this post is definitely the clearest and more helpful thing i have read about how to deploy. The fact it's been made mainly for me makes me feel halfway the happiest around here and halfway like this -> :oops: really, this took time, thoughts, and patience. I can't thank you as much as you deserve. Thank you Meteor, the most sincere thank you.

This said: the post is pretty clear.
I am gonna explain what i think i would have done. I tried to think every single turn what i should have done to win the battle.

First, on deployment. I would have put the CoB in the very centre of my army, too, and bowmen on the flanks of it. But both of them on the 2 flanks. this way i thought i could see mainly everything in the field and shoot on everything. Harpies would probably had been put besides CoB or Hydra to be ready to hunt something or redirect. At the very flanks of CoB i would had chose WE and BG since they are the units that mainly gain advantage from its blessing. Initial idea was to put sorceresses in bowmen and SM too. Hydra.. maybe on a flank. So, some thing are the same as yours, some other are very different.

My idea was basically to Take SM, bowmen and execs away from the most part of my army using harpies and eventually bowmen to redirect them on the very right of the field, while using SM and WE to double charge execs and using BG to front corsairs. But this idea was prolly going to fail since my enemy had definitely more units than me. his COK and Hydra would've slashed my BG while they were dealing with corsairs, and then i would've had flank charged my WE with both of the flanks of his army. YEAH, bad idea.

My idea on turn 3 would have been to go ahead with bowmen, too, since i saw that even last turn you sacrificed them to redirect. but i also thought about a different thing than what you did: i basically thought about avoiding Harpies with SM, passing on their left flank, and going in front on execs (little on the right). Then next turn when execs would've charged SM i'd charge harpies with WE and overrun on the flank of execs. I dunno if my idea is viable, though. :oops:

at the last turn, i'd prolly choose to go for sorceresses' march on the right of the field, to try to be as far as they can from Hydra. My Hydra would have charged their on its flank, and supposing the battle against BG would have weakened it, pls the flank charge, it should be an easy job to destroy it. My SM are passing very bad times now because enemy ones will charge them on the flank for sure. I am gonna suppose they're lost. Now my choice is gonna be how to move WE. I would prolly go to help my CoB since i cannot really stand another unit lost. Plus it's my BSB and i think it should be good to still have it alive when the battle ends. so i'd prolly flank charge corsairs. CoB would give me +1A. ENemy's CoB is supposed to charge my WE on the flank next turn, but hopefully i am gonna take rid of corsairs before it happens and overrun away. If i don't... i hope WE are gonna stand a 1turn flank charge from CoB. eheh. BTW this is what i think i would do being the purple army.

If i were the blue army... i would have used my harpies to take BG away from the battle to double charge with COK and corsairs against CoB or WE. on my turn 2, i would've charge bowmen with corsairs and prolly smashed them, so i could've use my muso to front the WE while CoK chose not to flank charge purple CoB (since they would receive an Hydra flank charge this way, and i don't think this is an experience i'd like to live). My blue CoK so could just pass behind corsairs (they don't need help to beat bowmen, really) and position themselves on the flank of WE. This way next turn i would have resiste WE charge with corsairs and flank charge them with CoK. It should have been GG or so...

Okay, here is what i thought on this. I tried to think a lot and to use this as the very great and useful exercise it is. I'd prolly had make some mistakes, as you can see. But sometimes is hard to think, let's say, 3 turns ahead. Because u never know what enemy's gonna do. I think this guide will be very useful for every beginner general like me. And it made me a little better, i think. So, i will never be thankful enough.
Any suggestions on what i said/thought i would have done, is very welcome, since i think it's gonna help me improve.

THANK YOU again, Meteor. Your work has been appreciated, and most of it all, your kindness has been appreciated.


EDIT: forgot to say that my very very fist idea was to send harpies to catch bowmen as i read that they are good at hunting war machines and shooting units. But having just one, i would not had them to redicrect. What if i had more of them? would have been wise to send them to hunt bowmen? and hydra? thanks!
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Meteor
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Meteor »

Well firstly thanks, I wasn't expecting it to make that big of an impact haha. They're somewhat time consuming, but they help me submerge myself into something that's not uni related for a change, so that's always nice.

And yeah my solutions aren't THE solutions as I said. You're definitely on the right track so long as you can think like that. Deployment is something that's reaaaaaaaaaally hard to explain because there's lots of 'it depends' involved. How well do you know your enemy's army? What're they bringing? What're you taking? What's the terrain like? What mission are you playing? What spells did you generate? etc etc...

Anyway glad it's helpful information for a 4am completed piece of work. If there's anything in particular anyone wants to explore, then put it down, otherwise I'll go ahead and generate more generalised scenarios typically seen in games.
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued
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Calisson
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Calisson »

Thanks, Meteor.
It is now linked in the D.R.A.I.C.H., of course. :)
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
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Meteor
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Meteor »

Ummm, that's quite an honour Calisson, thanks very much! :oops:

Then I shall tidy it up so its standard is as good as the other D.R.A.I.C.H posts haha
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued
Paricidas
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Paricidas »

Why doesnt the enemies hydra crawl down the left flank into the flank of the BGs and starts to fry them with str5 templates, is she boxed by the harpies?

In turn2, why are the enemy harpies placed in a way that they can be charged by spears? Shouldnt their one and only Task be to Redirect the witches?

Why do the enemy SM overrun the small RXB2 unit, to me, a simple Reform would have been much more advantagous.

If the exec unit is as big as the spear unit, the spears will break.

If this is a threat about deployment, why does it start with a Picture where deployment is already finished?
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Tyrannus deathbringer
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Tyrannus deathbringer »

@ Paricidas

I think that the point of the thread is to demonstrate some basic deployment principles, early phase movement and tricks such as re-directing and advantageous use of terrain. It is written with a brand new player in mind. It is also part of a series that is not finished.

When I read through it, I took the setup of the opposition to provide examples of the above more than to simulate a live game; hence the author's description of 'AI mode'.

The intended reader was very happy with the content. If it doesn't meet your standards, you can always contribute your own article.
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Paricidas »

Tyrannus deathbringer wrote:@ Paricidas

The intended reader was very happy with the content. If it doesn't meet your standards, you can always contribute your own article.


Did my questions Sound harsh? If so, plz excuse, that was in no way my intention (especialy as I know how much time and effort such Kind of article Needs).
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Helle »

Excellent writing, your effort is very appreciated. I'm looking forward on any further entries.
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Atanatari165 »

This is exactly the sort of thing new players need to understand the game. Thank you for all the work you put into this! Its a very good concrete illustration of the basic concepts.

However, new players should also understand that the skill level of your opponent makes a huge difference when trying to execute these sorts of strategies. For example, on enemy turn 2, if I was the enemy I would have charged the CoK into RxB1. They are an even closer target than the black guard, the CoK get an overrun into the cauldron and will take it out as well, no unit is set up to countercharge them other than the witches (the CoK can wheel to their left while over-running to get out of the BG charge arc if necessary), who can be redirected and wouldn't hurt the knights too badly anyway. That move would counter the trap set for the CoK.

I find that when redirecting it is critical to catalog all possible charges your enemy could make if you move unit X here, otherwise they will catch you off guard with something you didn't see coming. You then have to weigh the potential impact of them making that charge against the likelihood, and decide how much risk to take.
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Meteor
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Meteor »

Haha first thanks again for the positive feedback, I'm really glad to know this thread is helpful in general, not just for the intended reader, but to other newer players too.

Tyrannus has the right idea in the purpose of this thread, it's not very technical (yet) I'll move around to showing some more technical plays later on, for now I wanted to keep each post simple and focused on a few key things. That way people wanting to learn, especially newer players, won't be overloaded with information and get really really confused. I mean, if I had the CoKs charge the RxBs instead, then the whole point of redirecting the Hydra and Corsairs would've been for naught, from then on, the demonstration probably would've gone off track. Not that I'm saying such suggestions from more experienced players aren't welcome, quite the opposite, and it's always good to suggest these alternative plays, both to make sure I didn't accidentally missed them, but to also show new players that there's lots of things to consider and cover!

And Paricidas, I know your questions weren't intended to be harsh, but I think because they seemed too critical on the technicalities, it may had sounded a little less friendly haha. It's also why I suggested the player to cast Word of Pain on the CoKs and then later on, on the Executioners, and to prioritise WoP as the main spell they want to successfully cast in anticipation of these devasting charges.

The SM overran through RxB2 simply for the sake of demonstrating what the effect of the redirect sacrifice RxB2 made would've been like. Sure in an actual game the SM should reform, but in this demonstration, I wanted to show the path they'd overrun wouldn't take them into the combat next to them.

Anyway thanks again for the positive feedbacks, at least I know it's met with approval and interest, making it worthwhile to continue going into further depths. And sorry iamghost, I will go through your questions in more depth too, maybe make it my second demonstration, along with some of the suggestions more experienced players would do instead.

Finally, before I forget again, I love the description 'meteoric' haha, it's certainly a gentleman worthy name! hahaha
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued
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Re: Deployment and Terrain use examples

Post by Setomidor »

Great initiative for a thread :)

I would have played this game totally different, did you by any chance save the Battle-Chronicler file so I can re-use it? :)
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