Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights

User avatar
Daeron
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 3975
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:36 pm
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Contact:

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Daeron »

Are the amazons fireproof too? I know the DP's are, and with the banner they are bound to have a main block that's resistant. But reavers? Silverhelms? Archers? Bolt Throwers?
Flame cage on those amazons could be quite devastating.
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Calisson »

No, amazons are not fireproof.
It is just to mention that taking Fire against HE might not be a good idea overall, when half of the units are immune (thanks to banners, magic ojects...)
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
Trax
Assassin
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:53 am
Location: Germany

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Trax »

Yeah, I pretty much regretted instantly not having taking Chillwind and my Ring of Rhuin sat across the gaming table. Magic missiles or any return-fire will wipe them pretty fast. And they have a steep price tag, too, so worthwhile for all the good reasons. So instead of taking Fire, Dark will do just as good, since with Word of Pain, Chillwind or even the lacking (mostly nowadays) Doombolt Dark gets to shine brightly if used against them.

You still may play Fire versus Highelves, I guess - everything which is fireproof is hardly a target for S4 spells anyway. If you know your opponent is about to field big units of spears, sea guard or the stuff Daeron's mentioned, there's no fireborn-ness to be gotten for them.
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Dalamar »

not 99% of the army Calisson, only Dragon Princes (usually not more than one unit and fireball isn't optimal against them in the first place), Dragon Mages (Not many people will be using them) Flameheart Phoenixes (they could be a target for a fireball otherwise) and Dragon Armor wearing character (who otherwise would likely have dragonhelm or dragonbane gem)

So out of possible fire protected targets, only one would really be affected by spells from Lore of Fire. What Dragonborn puts a dampener on is Lore of Metal because all those targets (with exception of the phoenix) are high armor save.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
User avatar
Rabidnid
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:31 pm
Location: The Tower of Dust

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Rabidnid »

Daeron wrote:Perhaps this will encourage bringing a fire mage.. to rid us off their sisters and chaff. Or do they have protection against that? Magic missiles may be a valuable tool against them.



Nope, they are really only protected against searing doom. Everything else is squishiy T-3 with minimal slaves.

Calisson wrote:No, amazons are not fireproof.
It is just to mention that taking Fire against HE might not be a good idea overall, when half of the units are immune (thanks to banners, magic ojects...)


Not so much fire as magic. Banner of the World dragon protects against magical attacks, as does the MR and wards that are so common now.
"Luck is the residue of design"
User avatar
Tethlis
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1444
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:54 am
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Tethlis »

That thread isn't necessarily indicative of High Elf opinion as a whole. A lot of HE players are very pleased with it.
There is no escape from Chaos. It marks us all.


Image
Image
User avatar
Trax
Assassin
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:53 am
Location: Germany

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Trax »

And they should be. Strength of the book aside - which we can't really comment on right now - I see many, many nice possibilities and variations in there, I'm kinda envious and/or looking forward to our book if theirs is any indication ours (and I think it should/will be).
User avatar
Drek
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:48 pm
Location: Naggaroth...where the ice cream never melts

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Drek »

Is Teclis still broken?
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Dalamar »

Not at all
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
User avatar
Rabidnid
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:31 pm
Location: The Tower of Dust

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Rabidnid »

Drek wrote:Is Teclis still broken?



He is interesting. Still a stupidly powerful mage that gets to choose one spell from each of the 8 BRB lores, but all of the toys he has are now once per game rather than once per turn. For 450 points he is a very practical investment.

Edit

Right! first game with the new book

Book of Hoeth on the loremaster... AND... its being retired. Basically it lets you re-roll a single dice that rolled a 1, 2 or 3 in the hope you will do better with the re-roll. For the cost it really wasn't worth it. I was more aggressive in dispelling with it, but the extra 2+ from the lvl 4 was much better than the book. I will run it on a lvl 4 but not on the loremaster, as he can really use the points for other things. He has a scroll now.

BotWD does nothing to shadow, but did stop a magic weapon master from attacking which was game breaking. The miscast protection was not needed but is also very nice to have. For 25 SS why not.

Swordmasters were fantastic as usual. I needed to cast miasma on the CoKs to have a chance, but going first with 18 S-5 (12 SM) and 3 S-6 from the loremaster gutting a CoK bus. The master with whip of agony couldn't strike back because of BotWD and rubber lance syndrome saved all but one swordmaster. The second round finished them.

Phoenix guard ate a hydra, then a 20 strong block of RXB and then the sorc and her spear bodyguard, while being peppered with crowssbow bolts from shades and RXB every time they were out of combat. I lost 10 models out of 20.

Cheap reavers are awesome. With just bows and without musos they are just eagles that can shoot. If I want a combat unit then DPs are the obvious choice. Its easy to make reavers quite expensive, but I will stick with the cheap ones and maybe buff them with the loremaster as required.

Archers never got in the way because of the 3 ranks, and are much more manoeuvrable being 5 wide. I can see them breaking steadfast and beating up other people's chaff rather easily.
Last edited by Rabidnid on Sun May 26, 2013 5:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Luck is the residue of design"
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Dalamar »

Just keep in mind he's only T2 (T1 if he used the staff) with no ward save... if he goes with the 8 lores instead of High Magic, he has no protection aside from his unit.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
User avatar
Ilphrin
Warrior
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun May 26, 2013 9:41 am

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Ilphrin »

I played a 2000 pts. game vs them. And i can tell you.. they totally rape us in every aspect of the game.

They can bring 4 RBTs and 2 Skycutters with RBTs and 30 Bowmen... The price cost of the new units is a joke.
Swordmasters are so cheap and the ability of attacking/shooting from 3 ranks with WS 6 is just insane..

The biggest joke in this book is the frost phoenix! T 6 and u get -1 to strenght when you are in close combat with it. There is a further ability which depends on the magic phase so he can get a 4+ ward safe too...

Its so frustrating to play against them
User avatar
Rabidnid
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:31 pm
Location: The Tower of Dust

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Rabidnid »

Ilphrin wrote:The biggest joke in this book is the frost phoenix! T 6 and u get -1 to strenght when you are in close combat with it. There is a further ability which depends on the magic phase so he can get a 4+ ward safe too...


Yes, its almost like it has regen. All it needs is 13 attacks and a breath weapon for it to be a kind of tougher flying hydra.
"Luck is the residue of design"
Cold73
Highborn
Posts: 603
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:06 pm
Location: the Netherlands

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Cold73 »

I will admit i have not played against HE yet, but I really don't see the big problem with the
Frost Phoenix....so is has T6 and you get -1S in close combat.
I'd wound him on a 6 in all cases...with a -1S i'd still wound him on 6 .... go Witch Elves....

I'd be more afraid of the Fire Phoenix.... It doesn't even have to come in melee to be deadly...(D6 S4 hits + D3 S4 hits for every rank in the unit) ...and that by just flying over them. And if you finally get him down it has a good chance to force you to move FAR away from him..or even to be reborn again.

I do agree the number of shots the HE are able to put out now are AWESOME
[CENTER]Image[/CENTER]
User avatar
Gidean
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:47 am

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Gidean »

Ilphrin wrote:I played a 2000 pts. game vs them. And i can tell you.. they totally rape us in every aspect of the game.



I think not. Maybe shooting IF they go shooty. But not hand to hand or magic. We can sill throw unlimited dice and generate more during the magic phase. Our witches will chew up their Swordmasters and White Lions. And we still have hatred (and thus re-rolls) every round against them. Cauldron supported units can take down their Dragon Princes and Silverhelms with tons of killing blow attacks. :burns:
User avatar
Trax
Assassin
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:53 am
Location: Germany

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Trax »

I, too, played against HE (at 2,5k, though) and saw a Frost Phoenix hit the table. He's a nasty piece of work indeed, counters our Hydra perfectly 1on1 and is all around hard to bring down - he lost four of his wounds to a rendstar assassin, and I guess atm that's our best/only real good bet against either phoenix. Getting the Fiery one into an unwanted CC might be another possibility, but the Frosty one will probably just stay there and kill your troops - slowly but surely, at least until help arrives.
User avatar
Rabidnid
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:31 pm
Location: The Tower of Dust

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Rabidnid »

Gidean wrote:I think not. Maybe shooting IF they go shooty. But not hand to hand or magic. We can sill throw unlimited dice and generate more during the magic phase. Our witches will chew up their Swordmasters and White Lions. And we still have hatred (and thus re-rolls) every round against them. Cauldron supported units can take down their Dragon Princes and Silverhelms with tons of killing blow attacks. :burns:


yeah, everything half decent in the DE list being I 6 is a pain in the bottom for HE. The frost phoenix is good because it can make a unit ASL so the WL and SM strike first without having to depend on magic. i can also say that 40 RXB and 10 shades neatly outshot my 30 archers and 10 reavers. RXBs are still the best shooter in the game for their points.
"Luck is the residue of design"
User avatar
Gidean
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:47 am

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Gidean »

Rabidnid wrote:
yeah, everything half decent in the DE list being I 6 is a pain in the bottom for HE. The frost phoenix is good because it can make a unit ASL so the WL and SM strike first without having to depend on magic. i can also say that 40 RXB and 10 shades neatly outshot my 30 archers and 10 reavers. RXBs are still the best shooter in the game for their points.



And our crossbows can have shields and thus a parry save. Even swordmasters don't get a hand to hand parry save.
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Dalamar »

My biggest issue with HE now is that they can be so resilient. Insanely so for elves.
Silver helms core (2+ AS)
Phoenix guard (4+ ward, easily made 3+)
Dragon princes (2+ and 2+ ward against fire)
White lions with banner of world dragon (3+ against shooting and 2+ against magic)
Add a T6 phoenix and do they really still feel like squishy elves?
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
User avatar
Ilphrin
Warrior
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun May 26, 2013 9:41 am

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Ilphrin »

Yes they have rally good AS and ward safes now.
Further they are more flexible then our race, they shoot better (senn a HE list with 3 RBT, 2 skycutter with bolt thrower AND 1 Phoenix)
They will always out maneuver you cause of ithilmar armour for silverhelms and dragon princes.
Cold ones really suck vs them, wiches will be shot down very quickly with mass bowfire from Bowmen and Reavers..
I am really looking forward to our new army book to hunt down those bastards and betrayers :twisted:
User avatar
Gidean
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:47 am

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Gidean »

Dalamar wrote:My biggest issue with HE now is that they can be so resilient. Insanely so for elves.
Silver helms core (2+ AS)
Dragon princes (2+ and 2+ ward against fire)



Let's see. 40 rxb shots needing 5s to hit and 4s to wound and allowing for 3+ armor save is how many wounds math people?
Darkgul
Corsair
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:10 am

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Darkgul »

About 3,33... Make that 3 :p. I think witches their high attacks and initiative will be the hard counter vs white lions...
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Dalamar »

Actually that's 2.22 wounds, 20 crossbowmen killing 2 Silver helms... probably from a unit of 8 or 10.

And yeah, Witch Elves are a hard counter for White Lions (and Sword Masters)... and High Elf player is aware of it, so they are unlikely to ever get the charge (Frenzied units are so easily redirected)
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Darkgul
Corsair
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:10 am

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Darkgul »

2,22 if you dont distract the armor piercing on the armor save yeah. Maybe mini units of witch elves will perform better so there are too many to be redirected... Altho i never really use this tactic and i hate using army tailored tactics. I think it'll become even more important to take out the redirectors, luckily we have plenty of options for that.
User avatar
Daeron
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 3975
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:36 pm
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Contact:

Re: Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

Post by Daeron »

Gamewise, I think it was good that they made silver helms core. What I find a bit of a slap in the face is that they also get Reavers in core. It's almost giving them "everything". But then, I consider that this simply makes the game better. A combination of Reavers and Silverhelms in core is good, but not all powerful. More books should be like that: minimizing the penalty of Core but still have that checkpoint to go by.
Besides, it's not like an all cavalry army is the bane of our army.

A single RXB unit has never been a great tool at decimating heavy cavalry without support. The power of shooting comes from the ability to clear chaff and whittle down the main combat unit from a safe distance.
This ability hasn't been lost to us, with a 20 RXB unit capable of wiping a Reaver unit in a single volley:
http://warhammer.orderoftheathanor.eu/C ... 6:0:4:1:40
Or with a unit of 20 RXBs and 9 Shades capable of killing 6-7 Silverhelms/Dragon Princes in 1 turn with a single support spell like Plague of Rust OR withering.
With 6-7 models down, I'd love to see that 15-6/7 -> 8-9 model unit come closer to be grinded to dust by Black Guards with a banner of murder.
http://warhammer.orderoftheathanor.eu/C ... 4:0:4:1:22
Even a Corsair unit with the COBs killing blow would make a good anvil for such a unit:
http://warhammer.orderoftheathanor.eu/C ... 3:0:4:1:40

There's plenty of counters. I'm more worried about them fielding a shooty list. They really have everything to make a very strong shooting list which our RXBs might struggle to outshoot.
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze
Post Reply