Welcome to the new High Elves...uh oh!

[Phierlihy]

Here's a long but pretty good podcast I scooped up from the Warhammer Forum. They got to preview the book early and go over it fairly in depth.
http://www.thedwellersbelow.com/podcast ... Rising.mp3

Much like the last time they got a book, I think they got everything but the kitchen sink thrown at them. My three biggest concern starts with the new lore of High Magic. Two signature spells and both are really good. Drain magic effectively neuters Shadow magic. And 2D6 ST4 attacks being the other is a great chaff killer. The new Vaul's Unmaking (don't recall the new name) is better. They have a spell that makes a unit Ethreal and gives it a 10/20" move. Which means we WILL have a dragon in our rear on turn 1. And their number 6 spell is a remains in play spell that casts on a 19. It doesn't do horrible damage BUT to dispel it on a 19 basically means you've got to waste your entire magic phase to get rid of it. The old Lore of High Magic was quite under-rated I thought but this new one looks really, really strong. So now the kicker; the new Book of Hoeth. for 55 points the High Elf's Archmage can reroll a single casting or dispel die per attempt EVERY TURN. Which means we are going to have a heck of a time getting spells off. And he is going to be 2-dicing a lot of his spells! It looks almost guaranteed he WILL be getting something through and honestly, I don't want to get hit with any of those. Undoubtedly the High Elf wizard will be hiding beneath the new Banner of the World Dragon so he'll be quite safe from a lot of miscasts. Oh...and when he casts a spell, the Archmages unit or the target get a ward save. Keep casting, the better the save. Great...

Some of their units got better which I am totally fine with. Better Shadow Warriors, Maiden Guard, phoenixes, and so on. Much better and faster in some cases. But those combinations in their magic phase scare the pants off me. The book sounds solid and I'll be curious to see how it performs in the wild. But prepare yourselves ladies and gentlemen, I think we're in for a rough ride!

[Ming]

HE archers cheaper than before and firing in three ranks could have wiped away our shooting advantage over the Asur? Anyone (I mean Daeron :-D) did the math to confirm this?!

[Daeron]

Some interesting observations. If the new book of Hoeth is 55 points, it also means they'll be hard pressed to have 2 lord choices in 2400 points unless they put the combat lord on foot. The maths for it... I have yet to work out. It will be weaker than the sac dagger in offense though.

If Archers are 4.5 skaven slaves now, then our basic RXBs still offer more firepower point for point. They do have a range advantage though. It's not unusual to see High Elves bring 3 units of 10 archers in the old book. I'm guessing we may see 2 units of 15 now. It will help their mobility and yeah.. some chaff might have a harder time breaking them in combat. It will also be easier to debuff for us. But with T3 and barely armor to speak off, they are not particularly resilient. I don't think this is something to be worried about... although we could note it will make their fire support more reliable and compact.

Now the signature spell "Drain Magic" is pretty neat but there's a little catch to it. It's still dispelling in your magic phase. This means that some effects are still active during his charging phase. You say it counters Shadow, but the debuff on movement for example will still be in effect during the charge and movement phase. Another fun side effect is that it removes all benefits and buffs from his own magic, including the ward save from the lore attribute. So it's a strong spell, but it's a bit like a fencing spell. You can tackle part of the enemy's strategy but you'll sacrifice some of your own. It can stop a second turn of mind razor, but not all

The Walk Between Worlds... I could be wrong (not having read the book), but I thought it only affected the mage or character like it did in 6th edition. This is basically a good defense against mage snipers but... Think about it. You can debuff the unit. They can dispel the debuff, but not without loosing ethereal. Fun times!
The lore offers a buff spell.. which too won't work too well with drain magic. So it's good, but it has downsides.
I'd be more worried about apotheosis. Vaul's unmaking is ... yeah.. a bit annoying with the ability to break magic items.

[Daeron]

Ohh.. a big deal is the GW's loosing ASF and rerolls on the hit. That's a major one.
Can you say.. "Hello there black guards!". Come on. Say it with me. "Hello there black guards!"

All in all I'm really looking forward to seeing the new book in action. I have 2 buddies playing HE's and I'll be prepping style lists to fight them in the coming weeks. GIDDY!

[T.D.]

And 2D6 ST4 attacks being the other is a great chaff killer.

That will kill a lot more than chaff when it comes to DE!

[Dalamar]

Don't forget it can be boosted to 4d6, that's a lot of hits.

[Bonesaww666]

They will also be receiving +1 to Cast with the High Magic Lore.

Reavers dropping down to 16 points is a far larger concern for me...

Flyin Chariots will be a bit of a pain to keep contained, the ability to fly over targets when making charges means they won't really have to worry about chaff.

Silver helm Cav buses are probably coming to a table near you, run them 7x3 with martial prowess now they can attack in 3 ranks, 2+ As and Ithilmar Barding means they still move 9"! All from their Core allowance!

Frost Phoenix, this one lone creature is going to be the bain of my existence, -1S AND -1T to each UNIT in B2B... The synergy with LoB's Signature is rather frightening, especially when one factors in the ease of spam.

It looks like I'm going to have to do some serious rejigging of my tactics vs. my friends HE, they have all the tools to vastly outmaneuver us, some very potent option in the Lord Slots (any Lord that comes with a 4++ is amazing, or can cast all 8 Signatures...) with amazing chaff clearing ability, with access to RBT's that cost 30 points less then ours a nice selection of shooty units (Lothern with a Seahelm BSB seems like a decent choice, 40 in Horde Formation and cast the Reverse Withering for +d3 BS, not the best but will pull dispel dice as its far more affective then the average MM).

I think Pegi's stock just increased even more!

On the bright side, with WoC and now HE's ability to spread 3++ like jelly on toast all over their army and the "New" Book of Hoeth, Dagger and Pendant may not be going anywhere!

I look forward to battling our weakling kin the very near future, promises to be entertaining.

[Trax]

Frost Phoenix, this one lone creature is going to be the bain of my existence, -1S AND -1T to each UNIT in B2B... The synergy with LoB's Signature is rather frightening, especially when one factors in the ease of spam.

Do you have the AB in front of you? I thought it was "only" -1S and ASL for units in contact with the Frost Phoenix.

[No Saves]

Frost Phoenix, this one lone creature is going to be the bain of my existence, -1S AND -1T to each UNIT in B2B... The synergy with LoB's Signature is rather frightening, especially when one factors in the ease of spam.

Do you have the AB in front of you? I thought it was "only" -1S and ASL for units in contact with the Frost Phoenix.

I do, and you are correct, it's -1S and ASL. Still pretty good.

The fire Phoenix is also amazing, it does D6 flaming S4 hits PLUS D3 PER RANK to a unit it flies over. I have heard that it may be able to do this twice per turn - once in the movement phase, and again in the magic phase if you make it Walk Between Worlds.

Speaking of which, the unit targeted by Walk Between Worlds immediately makes a move in the magic phase, and is ethereal for the purposes of that move. They move 10, or, if boosted, 20. So, it's like a much much better Vanhels (without rerolls to hit though... oh wait HE have that inbuilt already...) for an army that is already staggeringly fast and maneuverable (unlike VC who are the 3rd slowest army in the game, behind TK and Dwarfs). So, debuffing them and making them dispel the ethereal when they dispel he debuff won't work, since they've already used and abused their ethereal movement and don't have it any more.

Banner of the World Dragon is a joke for 50 points. Fortunately it doesn't affect DE too much, but it's still absolutely disgusting.

(Nothing to do with DE, but as an aside, the worst offender in the book is Cloak of Beards. It costs 10 points. For every magic item held by a Dwarf in base contact, roll a 4+ every turn. On 4+ the item or items are destroyed. That level of insane, nonsensical points costing (this item should cost 75 points minimum. BotWD should cost 100 OR MORE) is so frustrating!)

[Bonesaww666]

It is indeed able to drop the flyover twice as the movement is considered "in the remaining moves phase" .

2 Ice Birds and a Flame Phoenix coming to a table near you, it's going to gut hordes and the Frost Pigeon will turn Spearmen into vicious killin machines against most hordes. Combo charges are the order of the day! A unit of 3 Tiranoc Chariots and a Frost Phoenix to hold a flank backed by 4 reapers for some 700 points makes for a great refused tactic IMO. Put the 3 Chariots and the bird against any T3 unit for rediculous casualties on the charge.

[Daeron]

Hmm... What's starting to worry me is the combination of all things indeed. I'm trying to imagine two combat units, one with the BotWD (perhaps made ethereal) and one with a mage who boosts the ward save through high magic. Both units become difficult to tackle.. and leave enough points for plenty of chaff.
I wonder if we can match the mobility and deviousness. I'm thinking a few characters on peg, some shades with Assassins... Perhaps we can deny the combat units and tackle the support. But the magic firepower and phoenix might make it tough to hold on to Shades.

[Liquidedust]

Hmm... What's starting to worry me is the combination of all things indeed. I'm trying to imagine two combat units, one with the BotWD (perhaps made ethereal) and one with a mage who boosts the ward save through high magic. Both units become difficult to tackle.. and leave enough points for plenty of chaff.
I wonder if we can match the mobility and deviousness. I'm thinking a few characters on peg, some shades with Assassins... Perhaps we can deny the combat units and tackle the support. But the magic firepower and phoenix might make it tough to hold on to Shades.

Do skirmish units counts has having ranks or not in regards to the fire pheonix flyover ability?

[Trax]

Hmm... What's starting to worry me is the combination of all things indeed. I'm trying to imagine two combat units, one with the BotWD (perhaps made ethereal) and one with a mage who boosts the ward save through high magic. Both units become difficult to tackle.. and leave enough points for plenty of chaff.
I wonder if we can match the mobility and deviousness. I'm thinking a few characters on peg, some shades with Assassins... Perhaps we can deny the combat units and tackle the support. But the magic firepower and phoenix might make it tough to hold on to Shades.

Yeah, the only thing some armies might do to tackle the BotWD is chaff it around, keep it out of play. Our demon player really gets my sincerest condolences now combine it with Walking between worlds which allows for pretty much perfect positioning after turn 1 if successfully cast. Yeah, sounds like fun.

The omnipresent ward saves are worrying as well, but Lions and Sword Masters took a pretty massive hit to their offensive potential - sure, attacking with 3 ranks sounds nice, but for the great weapon units it mostly means being subject to bad dice rolls - we know better than most armies that rerolls go a long way and a single round of bad to hit rolls can f up elven units pretty hard.

[Trax]

Do skirmish units counts has having ranks or not in regards to the fire pheonix flyover ability?

That's a really good question... RB states that they are counted as having "zero ranks" at any times, but I don't know if there are any errata/faqs or anything else that might interfere with this...

[Dalamar]

Remember that Walk Between the Worlds makes the unit Ethereal only during the extra move, it's not like it makes the unit immune to non-magical attacks.

The biggest use I see for this spell is to position your unit for a charge, cast the spell and march 20" *through* an enemy unit and threaten their back lines.
Then bring out a unit of Swordmasters from an ambush and mess with your opponent's reserve.

Also:
Swordmasters with Banner of World Dragon - 2+ ward against magic
Phoenix Guard with Anointed of Asuryan - 2+ ward against magic and 4+ ward otherwise

But I don't see anywhere how some people read Banner of World Dragon giving ward save against effects of miscast.

[Omnichron]

But I don't see anywhere how some people read Banner of World Dragon giving ward save against effects of miscast.

It says in the FAQ... Something about "What is magical attacks?" or something. There it states that misscast damage counts as magical attacks.

I think the White Lions will be the most popular choice for the banner... already having 3+ againsts normal shooting and that 2++ against magical attacks means they'll have nice defensive capabilities as well as strong on the offense.

Loremaster is great together with Phoenix Guard... that one we'll see a lot.

I think it's funny how so many on Ulthuan says that the banner isn't a must and don't include it in their lists yet... It's the most obvious item to get out of the lot. Like one of the better players at my club said today "They forgot the first number of the cost of that banner, they forgot the 2"

Other than that, I think the new HE looks balanced and good. Not that hard for us to deal with... From the HE perspective, WoC got slightly harder, but they still got plenty of ways to deal with them. Destroying some ward saves with magic sounds neat for them.

[Trax]

@No Saves

Ah, by the way, having the AB in front you (or anybody else with it): Is there any explanation concerning Always Strike First for almost every unit in the book? It's certainly no longer needed, since it's a rulebook-rule, but I'd like to make an educated guess if GW intends to give ASF to all elves in this edition. (Or if it's still only the artisans amongst our kind that got the needed discipline...)

[Muko]

Some interesting observations. If the new book of Hoeth is 55 points, it also means they'll be hard pressed to have 2 lord choices in 2400 points unless they put the combat lord on foot.

The Arch Mage is now 20 slaves cheaper than our Supreme Sorceress, and their Prince is the same price as our Dreadlord. An lv 4 Archmage with book + A Prince with 100 pt. Magic Items and Barded Steed is under 550

[Omnichron]

@Trax: They kinda had ASF before, although it was ASF no matter what, and the removal of the "no matter what" means that they can just have normal ASF and be more balanced out now... as GW will be normal I and suddenly those units have a weakness (and can be cheaper).

I really don't think WE or DE will get ASF... however, I do believe the draich will not have ASL anymore. Execs hitting on I sounds reasonable, and not for much change of points either (Seeing the cost of WL and SM for HE... then again, we will most likely still have hatred, so...).

[Trax]

@Omnichron

I asked so specifically since the "old ASF" had a really specific (fluffy) explanation and with it gone I tend to (want to) see it more in line of "they are elves, elves got this rule". Just like undead got fear and whatnot for example. I'm still clinging to the rumor of a racial wide rule given out to all elves I've read a couple of weeks ago and ASF would really suit my taste here - especially since I'm not entirely convinced by our Hatred fluffwise and ASF is... similar in many regards - we strike before most enemies and combat should rarely take longer than one round anyway. But whatever, it's just a line of thought I'm having, in the end it's got nothing to do with the new HE, so disregard it.

[No Saves]

I have the HE book on my iPad and I feel like its presence on here is actually corrupting and harming me with its smug superiority and proliferation of Mat Ward Saves... and its 'convenient costings' i.e. the best banner is costed so that you can take it on normal units, unlike every other super-banner where you need to buy a BSB, the book of Hoeth conveniently fitting nicely with a 4+ ward save unlike Master of the Dark Arts on a VL which stops you from even taking Quickblood with it, the 25 point items which fit nicely on unit champions...

[Dalamar]

A little note, HE unit champions can't take magic items other than magic weapons. They have larger points pool, but are limited to magic weapons.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Greetings!

I am always amused how different opinions are formed about the same army by the players looking at it from different point of view. For example, check this out:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45344

[Bonesaww666]

I am loath to jump on the "F-ing Book of Hoeth" band wagon as I love the Dagger, it fits for HE to have some form of Magic Supremacy option.

I think I'm more paranoid of a Lvl. 4 High Magic "Book of Asur(?)" for a +6 to Cast alongside a Loremaster toting the "Book of Hoeth" with Heavy armora, 4+ Ward and that book snapping off signatures with relative ease. The Magical flexibility of such a combo is rather annoying, great for tournaments though.

To the Banner... Wtf... Seriously, that is the most absurd thing to have 2++ from any Magical means, imagine being the DoC player that walks into that match up!?

[Bonesaww666]

^^ that review seems a little miffed IMO, 29 points for a Cavalry unit that moves 9" with a 2+WvF and a 6+ ward is not near as caff eared as this guy suggest, especially once one actually considers the combo's his brand new fancy book just offered up.

A character that gives his units a Ward Save, ItP and comes with a 4+ Ward so i can maximize his offense or double down on his defence sounds like a pure dog shiz option, I would absolutely hate that in our next book!

Minsc seems to have a far more formidable grape of reality...