how do I beat the new high elves?

[Jvh792]

What kind of tactics do you use to beat high elves? I have had no luck versus them except for my first game... Too many ward saves by them...
Lets have some lists or links to battle reports?

[Wardancer X]

So for the past 3 weeks, I have not been able to play a game against an opponent OTHER THAN those dirty rotten high elves. They are everywhere, and unavoidable.

I am happy to report however, that my record against the new book high elves is 6-1-1, so they are indeed beatable.

Here is the list I have been running. It runs on 3 basic principals. 1) shooty/redirect goodness 2) every model in the army gets at least 2 attacks if not more, and 3) I have mediumish sized, yet cheap, chaff units that I am ready and willing to sacrifice to allow me to press an advantage elsewhere. By having chaff units that can still inflict some damage, and then on the other hand, 3 stubborn units littered about the board to hold the lines that really matter to me, you can gain control of the battlefield and get units into the right combats. Actually for this list, I run witch elves as chaff, because they can still take on some pretty nasty units yet only offer 145 victory points if beaten. Moreover, in this list in particular, they can really ruin a high elf's day, because they are stubborn from the cauldron of blood! Similiarly the corsairs are potentially devistating against a toughness 3 army, but ultimately expendable. At just 230 points, you can play it fast and loose with the corsairs, and hopefully have them soak up a lot of enemy shooting on their way out (better corsairs than black guard!)

So here's the list:

10x Xbowmen 105
with mus

8x Dark Riders with repXbows 183
with mus

18x corsairs with additional hand weapons - 230
std/mus/sea serpent banner

5x Harpies - 55

2x bolt throwers -200

20x black guard - 286
std/mus/banner of murder

lvl 2 mage- 160
with dispell or tome of furion

14 witches - 145
musician

Lord general - 228 (goes in cold ones)
cold one, PoK, crown of command, heavy armor, great weapon, sea dragon cloak

cold ones -175
full command

CAudlron with Death hag who is also bsb - 225

Total 1992:

Lastly, here is sorta an informal battle report on some of the high elf troops i've been encountering:

Phoenix Guard: WATCH OUT if they weren't nasty before the new book, they are straight up insane now. ASF, with rerolls usually because they are initiative 6, 4+ ward that can be improved if they have a mage successfully casting from within the group... cause fear and can fight in three ranks.... gross gross gross. Honestly, the most effective method i've found for these guys is avoid them as long as you can, or until you can approach them with far superior numbers. They will eat up most dark elf infantry, so just stay away. I had a good run one time against them once, where my cold ones with my lord were buffed to have an extra attack by the cauldron of blood. I managed to break them on the charge, and get out alive, but thats because I had a) loads of attacks that only let the P.Guard save on the ward, AND b) because I had thick enough armor to absorb the P. Guard's many strength 4 rerollable attacks. So yeah, the lesson there is, P. Guard can be broken, but only if conditions are perfect. Approach with extreme caution, or better yet, don't approach them at all! The good news? P. Guard are up to 15 points each now, so your opponent may be reluctant to put them right on the front line, making them easier to run from. Also, everything else in the army is quite easy to pick off so just avoid the P.Guard and you should be in good shape. Sacrifice some chaff to the P. guard if you must, but under no circumstances are they to be fighting against black guard!

the New Phoenix Birds (new beasts on chariot base): so far i've only played against the fire one, and I think their bark is worse than their bite (not the frost). What I have found is that the high elf player is very timid with these birds, because they don't want to expose it to repeater bolt thrower or repeater crossbow fire and lose the points. This plays into your hand, as it is actually a somewhat scary beast with 5 wounds 4 or 5 attacks, and a ward save. I recommend shooting it down from afar. I field repeater bolt throwers so they are up to the task, but keeping the Phoenix at bay with dark riders/harpy redirectors isn't difficult. DO NOT however, let this flaming bird fly over units of yours with large ranks, as it does a flaming attack when it flys over, and gets extra attacks for each complete rank in the unit it flew over.

White Lions: these guys have actually become a little worse with the new books. They effectively lost ASF, only striking at initiative speed (which is 5), which would be trouble for most races, but not us dark Elves. Lately I've been crushing them with Witch elves, you can usually just mow them down with a witch elf charge, or even a frenzied corsair charge should be enough to frig them up. Your shear number of attacks on their paultry toughness 3 and heavy armor defense, should kill enough to at least win combat, if not wipe them entirely.

Swordmasters: again sorta lost ASF, in that they only attack at initiative speed, but that said, they have Initiative 6, 2 attacks and weapon skill 6 with rerolling to hit. These guys would be scarier than pheonix guard, if not for their breathe taking ability to die from ranged attacks. At toughness 3, flimsy armor, no ward, and subject to panic checks at leadership 8, these guys make a real juicy target for dark riders, repeater bolt throwers (with nothing better to shoot at) and your rank and file crossbow men.

Lastly, I can say that High magic has gotten a little nastier in this book, but its nothing you can't survive. Watchout for this one flame spell though that catches fire to the unit and re-burns every magic phase... that melts faces after 1 or 2 rounds.

Hope this helps all you druchii out there trying to spill some sissy high elf blood. Happy Hunting!

[Trax]

Swordmasters: again sorta lost ASF, in that they only attack at initiative speed, but that said, they have Initiative 6, 2 attacks and weapon skill 6 with rerolling to hit. These guys would be scarier than pheonix guard, if not for their breathe taking ability to die from ranged attacks. At toughness 3, flimsy armor, no ward, and subject to panic checks at leadership 8, these guys make a real juicy target for dark riders, repeater bolt throwers (with nothing better to shoot at) and your rank and file crossbow men.

Just a heads-up: SM are only initiative 5, so happy witch hunting... or.. hunting with witches.

[Sulla]

Shooting, magic and combat, the same way we always have.

Elves are very vulnerable to our crossbows and dark magic. And even our core can hurt them in combat.

Plus, there isn't an elven infantryman who isn't terrified at the idea of a hydra breathing on his regiment...

Metal #6 might be neccessary vs a BotWD deathstar, but everything else is pretty manageable in the new book.

[Jvh792]

I've also had wretched luck against the HEs... I've failed two critical STUBBORN panic tests and basically crumpled an entire flank.
A 4 up ward save is nothing to sneeze at with the phoenix guard.
I've only had to face the frost phoenix... It seems there is nothing it can't do. It lowers strength of any unit touching it, practically guaranteeing to win the combat. It gets buffs from the winds of magic. It's stupid tough with a 4+ ward save and I think like a 4+ armor save.........

It wins most combats on its own since I need 4's to hit and 6's to wound with a great armor and ward save.

The other nastiness I found was this: The lore-master fighty mage that knows all the signature spells? Sick nasty. T1 roasted my CoK. All of them. Dropped miasma on my RXB so they couldn't hit anything. Buffed his units with the lore of beasts... That caster plus the phoenix made it near frickin impossible to win a combat.

[Trax]

The frost phoenix is best dealt with via rendstar assassins, with 5+AS and 5+(sometimes 4+) wardsave, the RBT won't cut it. As for there rest, Sulla's spot on, there's nothing intrinsically new or exciting to be found that we can't deal with. HE pack quite some punch now thanks to readily available saving throws for everybody, but their elite hits at I5 which hurts them badly and at the end of the day RXBs are still better shots than any HE bow users - save for the sisters, those are nasty, but equally expensive and will fall to any melee charge (granted, 4 of them + handmaiden shot a chariot with three remaining wounds down on their stand&shoot reaction, so be careful here^^).

Chariots, Hydras, yeah, I'm starting to paraphrase Sulla here - there has been no fundamental change in the way of dealing with them, I'd just pick an assassin or two now every time I knew I'd be playing HE, just to get rid of the Phoenix(es).

[Rabidnid]

+
The other nastiness I found was this: The lore-master fighty mage that knows all the signature spells? Sick nasty. T1 roasted my CoK. All of them. Dropped miasma on my RXB so they couldn't hit anything. Buffed his units with the lore of beasts... That caster plus the phoenix made it near frickin impossible to win a combat.

Yeah. I case boosted shems burning gaze at a hydra and searing doom at a unit of CoKs on the same turn. They did get it right with balance though. If he had been higher than lvl 2 no one would run anything else.

[T.D.]

@ Wardancer X (that's a suspiciously Asrai sounding name isn't it?)

Here is the list I have been running. It runs on 3 basic principals. 1) shooty/redirect goodness 2) every model in the army gets at least 2 attacks if not more, and 3) I have mediumish sized, yet cheap, chaff units that I am ready and willing to sacrifice to allow me to press an advantage elsewhere. By having chaff units that can still inflict some damage, and then on the other hand, 3 stubborn units littered about the board to hold the lines that really matter to me, you can gain control of the battlefield and get units into the right combats. Actually for this list, I run witch elves as chaff, because they can still take on some pretty nasty units yet only offer 145 victory points if beaten. Moreover, in this list in particular, they can really ruin a high elf's day, because they are stubborn from the cauldron of blood! Similiarly the corsairs are potentially devistating against a toughness 3 army, but ultimately expendable. At just 230 points, you can play it fast and loose with the corsairs, and hopefully have them soak up a lot of enemy shooting on their way out (better corsairs than black guard!)

That's a great summation. Could you be persuaded to write up one of your battle reports versus the Asur scum?

Cheers

[Jvh792]

What I am really having nightmares about is the frostheart phoenix. HOW DOES IT DIE?

[Rabidnid]

What I am really having nightmares about is the frostheart phoenix. HOW DOES IT DIE?

Witches, everything in the HE list apart from PG is vulnerable to witches or witches with KB.

[Setomidor]

Its actually quite vulnerable to missile fire too, assassins should be able to deal with it quite easily with rending stars and same goes for bolt throwers. Other than that, just charge it with your pendant BSB and break it

[Rabidnid]

Its actually quite vulnerable to missile fire too, assassins should be able to deal with it quite easily with rending stars and same goes for bolt throwers. Other than that, just charge it with your pendant BSB and break it

If you have all day to shoot at it. T6, 6 wounds and a 5+ ward is not going down to a couple bolts or stars. Apart from that the thing belongs in combat so it won't be wandering around getting shot at. And it would be a shame if the HE have broken your pendant with vauls unmaking

[Cold73]

Isn't Vauls Unmaking a direct damage spell?
If so...i'd only have to protect against that spell for a single turn or so....should be plenty to get me in combat with that phoenix.

[Trax]

It's direct damage indeed, save your... save in combat.

[Jvh792]

I've been thinking about a PoK Peg master with a great weapon... But even then I'm only wounding on 5's since it lowers the strength of everyone in base contact with it. So he could tie him up, but with LD 9, he is unlikely to get broken since it is doubtful I will wound it. Also, with 4 attacks every round practially auto wounding, I will eventually fail my PoK saves and possibly get broken myself.
I charge with my peg master bsb and he is already losing the combat by two. I probably won't wound. Best case scenario, he doesn't wound either.
I win by two and he tests on 7. Possibly rerollable if within range of the BSB. Then say he breaks, we both go best of 3 D6. I have a slight edge in catching him, but nothing is guaranteed. So many things have to go right for me and I hate depending on luck.
Witches are an obvious choice, but I haven't been able to catch the thing since it can fly!!
Plus!
Doesn't it also give always strikes last to everything in contact with it too? So witches will get decimated before they can attack.

Also, just thought about it, and witches are highly unlikely to be an answer for that thing as the phoenix will win almost all of the combats and can easily run down the breaking witches. 16 attacks from 4 wide in base contact. 2 or 3 of those will be poison. About 4 will miss. The other 9 attacks need 6's. Say, best case scenario, two wound. 5 wounds. Even with zero saves, the thing lives and attacks back.
4 attacks on 3's. 3 hit. anything but, 3 wound. 3 dead. Plus stomp. He will kill an average of close to 6.5 per round. Tying every combat is you kept a standard. That's also not including any buffs he will probably get from the winds of magic rule he has.... This thing is overpower for sure..

[T.D.]

Looks like a combined approach is in order.

Does anyone know the points cost of Mr Frosty Chocobo?

I'm thinking magic to damage/debuff + other things to kill (massed rxb and RBT, shades + assassin, etc)

[Sedge]

Does anyone know the points cost of Mr Frosty Chocobo?

120 skaven slaves.

[Trax]

To be fair, the phoenix only got 4 attacks, so a unit of witches might be able to bring it down. At least a unit of value comparable to the duck's cost (and stubborn thanks to the CoB - the thunderstomp may as well break your unit if you're unlucky) will probably get him down, but why would the HE let him get charged by WE in the first place.

[Omnichron]

...but why would the HE let him get charged by WE in the first place.

Exactly.

Shooting will take him down though, as will the peg master.

[Dalamar]

The frozen turkey might be T6 with 5 (not 6) wounds, but its armor is pitiful (5+ save followed by 5+ ward which has a 1/6th chance to be 4+ for one turn)

This is the case where averages say one thing, but if you fire 20 crossbowmen (40) bolts, an assassin and a couple bolt throwers into the bird it will be either dead or strongly limping and HE player will hide it. Even in combat you can get an occasional 6 and put a wound on it and with its 4 attacks it won't break anything sizable on its own.

Don't let it combo charge the chicken with something else, shoot it up a lot first (which should be a priority anyway, it's a flying monster - they allow you to control the field) and you will be just fine.

Thanks to the new HE book I actually started fielding two bolt throwers again (yes, I still think they suck for their cost) since I didn't want a second assassin running around, one is plenty.

[T.D.]

Does anyone know the points cost of Mr Frosty Chocobo?

120 skaven slaves.

That's a very precise answer. I don't harvest skaven as slaves, I drown them, so you'll have to inform me of what that equals in points

Thanks to the new HE book I actually started fielding two bolt throwers again

Are you sure you are feeling alright, Dalamar? Maybe a nice cup of tea and a lie down is in order?

(intended as joke not sarcasm btw )

[Calisson]

Slaves are a common currency. Especially here in the land of the Druchii, but, for skaven slaves, it is more widely used.
The value of skaven slaves is the most often seen in places where you don't want to betray GW's copyrighted information, because it is quite easy to convert in points and nothing is cheaper.
For example, a corsair is worth five skaven slaves.

[Trax]

Thanks to the new HE book I actually started fielding two bolt throwers again (yes, I still think they suck for their cost) since I didn't want a second assassin running around, one is plenty.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the account got hacked or something^^

His chance for a 4+ ward save is 11/36 btw, that's almost double the chance and might mingle with a very important round of shooting/stand and shoot/combat (with the assassin) - it did in my premiere game facing him.

[Jvh792]

Yep. The bird is basically a T6 W6 flying debuff wizard that can stomp...
I am beginning to think that fire magic for the +1 to wound spell and some shooting could do ok against him. Maybe I get off a lucky shadow spell and lower his toughness to 3 also? Doubtful, but hey...
I don't see why anyone would ever take a fire phoenix...

[Trax]

I don't see why anyone would ever take a fire phoenix...

Well I would if I didn't have access to the frost one, but that's highly hypothetical, I guess^^