Need help against Skaven

[Shearov]

Hello all, I'm new to Warhammer, and started with Dark Elves, I've played a few games but nothing serious and using some strict comp rules.

I now have a game against a Skaven player, 2500 pts and encouraging all filth to make the game as hard as it can be.

He has posted his list as :

WarlordHeavy Armour, Great Weapon, Shield
Grey SeerMage lvl. 4, W3 Warpstone Tokens, Screaming Bell, Staff of Sorcery
Plague PriestFrenzy, Plague Furnance, Talisman of Protection, Dispel Scroll
ChieftainHeavy Armour, Great Weapon, Shield, Battle Standard Bearer
40x Clanrat SlavesShield, Musician, Pawleader
35x Clanrat SlavesShield, Musician, Pawleader
35x ClanratsLight Armour, Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer, Clawleader
35x ClanratsLight Armour, Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer, Clawleader
40x StormverminHalberd, Heavy Armour, Musician, Standard Bearer, Fangleader, War Banner
40x Plague MonksFrenzy, Two hand weapons, Musician, Standard Bearer, Bringer-of-the-Word, Plague Banner
Warp-Lightning Cannon
Warp-Lightning Cannon
Doomwheel



What sort of list would people take against this?

My list I came up with was :

Dreadlord : Cold One Mount, PoK, CoC, Add h/w, HA, Shield, SDC
Supreme Sorceress : Lvl 4, Shadow, Sac Dag, Seal of Ghrond

Death Hag : CoB, BSB
Sorceress : Lore of Death, Death Magic, Focus Familiar

30 X Spearmen : SB
30 X Speamen : SB
16 X Spearmen :
5 X Dark Riders :
6 X Harpies :

20X Black Guard : FC, Kouran
Cold One Chariot

War Hydra
War Hydra

The plan was a refused flank (I have some idea what to do), with the Dreadlord and BG try to hold up most of the force, with the 2 X 30 spearmen in support. Probably try to get the lord on the bell.

The other spearmen are the sup. sorceress bunker and sac dagger unit.

CoB Behind main lines, probably giving 5+ ward save to BG.

Harpies set up to hunt the Warp Lightning Cannons.

Dark Riders hunting war machine too, and escorting my Lvl 2 up the board to try to snipe his general, I think he has to be the main target for Skaven.

Hydras and Chariot will somehow try to get flank attacks in, maybe chariot on the doomwheel.


This list might be utter rubbish, and would appreciate all feedback. I can use any models as proxies, so am not worried about what unit.

Also I am being encouraged to take all bent / broken DE things.

I know the PoK / CC DreadLord.

Also the Manbane / RS assassin, but not sure how good he'll be against a horde army.

Are there anymore I can try?



Also as a thought, with his Warlord not having the best build, could I take Shadowblade instead if the Lvl 2 sorceress, hide him in the general unit and try to assasinate him. I'll obvious only have one attempt at it, and don't know if it's too risky.

Sorry about the huge post, but I really want to do well this game!!

Thanks all.

[Calisson]

Did you searched for previous advice in the usual forums?
I'm not knowledgeable about rats, but you're not the first one to face them lately.

[Shearov]

I read the current skaven threads, but wondered if people had advice against that specific list. Also some nice over powered Dark Elf tactics that could help.

[Stonecutter]

There are three tweaks and two major changes to the list that I would recommend as follows:

1) Dreadlord - go with DP vice CO for better mobility, higher toughness, stomp & not having to worry about stupidity. Also, the xhw & shield don't work together. I would recommend the whip of agony or even a sword of might - S5 is far better than S4 against skaven. This will allow him to fly out and assassinate skaven characters and pin the bell unit in place - just make sure not to issue a challenge since it will allow the gray seer to retreat and avoid being attacked.

2) Support wizard lore - with the latest FAQ allowing the general's inspiring presence, the signature spell will be nerfed vs skaven since they will be LD 10 and there is no guarantee that the dice gods will give you the spells you desire in the lore. Lore of fire has a lot of good spells that would be useful. However, lore of shadow might be even better since it will a) increase the chance of the 4th level getting to either pick spells or randomly roll the most critical ones; and b) double miasma would be very useful against the skaven blocks in nerfing WS (and possibly the I on the stormvermin).

3) Dump Kouran - a regular champ with crimson death would save a lot of points and do the same thing. The BG are very unlikely to lose combat and Kouran doesn't bring anything to the table to merit the points IMHO. Also, this might be a good unit to give the +1 LD banner.

4) Witch Elves vice COB & chariot - skaven troops are dirt cheap and thus have no high value targets other than characters for KB and the 5+ ward & +1 A are nice but not a huge game changer give the absence of a real hammer unit in the army (i.e. executioners or CoKs). I think the points would be better spent on a good size unit of witchelves with the banner of murder or eternal flame (in case of HPA, which is likely since it can beat a hydra most of the time thanks to higher initiative, impact hits, etc.). This unit would lay waste to all the skaven blocks and would drop an HPA in a single round with a bit of luck.

5) Core Selection - if you are being encouraged to bring all the nasty stuff in the inventory then one unit of power die spears (musician only) backed by 2 x 20 RXBs would be a lot more useful. The shooting allows them to reach out to 24" and impact the game for a couple extra turns and they are actually better in combat than spears since they get a parry save. Throwing 80 shots a turn down range at the higher value targets is bound to yield results. Note that this works particularly well with double shadow since miasma can slow down the skaven advance (granting an extra turn of shooting) while a successful withering could result in carnage (think T3 hits vs T1/T2 infantry). At the very least, it would force the skaven player to expend power dice to dispel the RiP during the next turn.

As for tactics, war machine plan is good so run with it - it is essential to kill the WLC soonest since they can decimate your army. However, I would not recommend trying to refuse a flank since the skaven win in any war of attrition. Their troops are cheaper and between WLC and skaven magic, it is vital to get into combat quickly since that is where your troops will excel (relatively speaking). Also, a smart skaven player may allow the refused flank and park a unit of slaves in front of the WLC to prevent your fliers/fast cav from engaging the WLC - being on the receiving end of several turns of WLC is not a good idea! I would recommend sending the hydras up the flanks and then marching them into position to breath on the storm vermin/bell unit as the flame template and S5 will slaughter those troops in droves. Combined with shooting, this could render the unit immobile or very slow (the bell unit loses 1" move for each model below 10) in a single round. After that, the hydras can charge in and finish the unit off and kill the grey seer. Your own infantry can march up the centre and engage whatever it needs to while the shooters support from the left and right sides and then prepare to charge in if necessary. For magic, miasma the plague furnace unit to keep its template far from your troops and then pit of shades the seer&bell or monk unit and/or wither the storm vermin - the skaven player can't stop everything and with PoD it should be possible to get off 3-5 spells per phase so something will make it through. Steed of shadows could also be used to get the dreadlord into position to take out the WLC or for a future rear charge for extra combat resolution. Lastly, the plague monks and furnace can be lead astray by using a harpie congo line. Charge the rear or flank of the unit with only one harpie in contact. The harpies will lose combat and likely at least one will survive and break. Since the monks are frenzied, they must pursue - a really excellent tactic when any pursuit will take them into terrain since it automatically causes d6 x S6 hits on the furnace.

[Shearov]

Thanks very much for your advice Stonecutter, will definatley be changing my army list with that in mind.

I love the Hydra Congo line, will definatly be trying that, and laughing like a madman if it works!

[Rageaholic]

I'm not familiar enough with dark elves to be super helpful but I do know a thing or two about rats.

Forget death sniping the seer. Strength in numbers only adds to leadership for leadership tests so it wont help against spirit leach. But the bell gives him a 4+ ward and Mr2 so you are wasting your time anyway as he will have a 2+ ward vs death magic.

What they really fear is a lot of attacks on the seer in combat. Using a flying dreadlord to kill the seer then hold up the unit or a couple of small units of witch elves to suicide the seer off the top of the bell will really hurt him. Especially as he hasn't gone for the fencers blades/skalm combo.

The best way to deal with the furnace is poison shooting. You can pick it out of the unit to shoot at and it has no armour or ward save.

[Meteor]

Heh sounds very familiar to my opponent's list, almost exact- Actually, is exact rofl.

The list I used against him was the following core infantry list;

Master BSB 1+ AS and rerollable
Dreadlord with Giant Blade, Regen Armour and Dragonbane Gem (I'd replace build with Exec Axe, Blood Armour and Potion of Speed now)
Lv3 w/ Scroll
2 Assassins with Manbane, AHW and +D3 attacks

40 Spear train
2x 20 Spear blocks
30 RxBs
35 Corsairs w/ RHB and AP banner
2x 5 Harpies
5 DRs w/ RxBs

2x 5 Shades

I walked off with a minor loss based on points system from 7th ed. Only walked off with a minor loss because my opponent was soooo frightenly accurate with his Cannons and was impossible to prevent him from blowing chunks of my army up. We also played the mountain pass one, where he had maximum range along the long edge of the table.

If you take Executioner Axe, I'd swap out the 35 Corsairs for 20 BG and give them the ASF banner to go with the Dreadlord so he strikes at I order and not last. I wiped out all but the bell by turn 6 just from straight out punching it and his unit with my characters. Executioner Axe will have no problems wiping it out. And this is with a balancecd list too, I legitimately use Exeuctioner Axe now in my competitive list.

[Meteor]

Sorry I ran out of time before to write further, that's an example of a list made possible in winning against them. I think any list as equal chance and value, it's a luck based game, anything can happen. If you're able to use the terrain and such to aid you, it'll be better. I think the thing you need to keep in mind is that, you will suffer heavy casualties, but you should win combats because rats are elves but not as elite, ie they're T3 S3 squishies that are slower, not any better in resilience, and usually have worse WS. If you're careful about his tricks and force him to take out less important units of yours, then you should be able to deal him that decisive blow.

The main problem is the cannons, once they're silenced, his army is just hordes of squishy rats for slaughter. Harpies and Shades are excellent for the job, I personally only managed to take one cannon out, my opponent was quite a veteran, with Skaven to be precise, so it was a huge feit. But your opponent might not be so experienced in protecting his cannons, and might be less lucky with them. Build yourself a peg-master for the job.

Take lots of bodies too, to soak up the damage and still have enough to dish it out. Elites like our CoKs and BG aren't useful due to low numbers and cannons laughing at CoK armour. SSS Corsairs, WE and lots of RxBs would make the rats cringe a lot more. But yeah, remember slaves can be shot into by Skaven, either kill them fast, or...well no just kill them fast. If you can silence the cannons quickly, you can just sit back and relax, the slaves serve no purpose anymore other than to feed you easy VP. Remember to aim all the RxBs at the bell too. The Seer on it can be picked out because the unit can't absorb missile since the Seer and its 'mount' aren't the same unit type as the infantry.

If you can neutralise these three threats, the two cannons and the seer, neither should be TOO difficult. You should have an easier time against the horde. The cannons, hurt! They're your number 1 priority.

[Stonecutter]

One last change is to drop the focus familiar for a scroll. You will definitely want to stop any dreaded 13th that doesn't go off with irresistible force far more than an extra 6" range for a support wizard.

[Shearov]

Thanks for all the advide I ended up with a minor victory (about 400+ points), but I did have luck on my side for it.

In T3 the Grey Seer IF miscast scorch on my spearmen, but got sucked in the warp, which was the biggest slice of luck, as well as my Hydra passing his Initiative test when Cracks Call was cast on him!

Also (and this caused some debate between my opponent and another skaven player who happened to watch deployment), my opponent didn't believe in protecting the WLC with any units, saying they are too cheap and unstable, so he would happily get two turns of shooting off before they died. All 4 shots went into a hydra who sucked them all up with 1 wound left. That hydra also scared 35 clan rats from the board with terror despite having the 1 wound.

Through good rolling I managed to snipe the BSB, which was a huge boost for the army in T3 as well. Also he had deployed terrain when I got there (I wasn't fussed) and had put a buildnig right on the edge just in range of where his characters were for my snipe sorceress to hide behind.

The list I ended up with was,

1 x Peglord, PoK, Deathpiecer, HA, SDC, Shield, Black Dragon Egg.
1 x Sup. Sorc. Shadow, Sac Dag, Talisman of Endurance? (5++ one)

1 x Master BSB, HA, Shield, SDC, Aadd hand weapon. Null talisman (3)
1 x Sorceress, Death, Dark Pegasus, Focus Familiar,

35 x spearmen
35 x spearmen
20 x spearmen (Sup. Soc bunker)
6 harpies
6 harpies

20 BG (BSB in here), SB and Tower Master
6 CoK, Standard Bearer

2 x Hydra

Once again thanks for all the help, my next match is against new High Elves (and the guy playing has all the new models spending £250+ when they came out!)

Let's watch that flying chariot fall out of the sky

[Jvh792]

I've never lost a game versus rats.
Fewer characters. I run only 1 LVL 4 death sorc with a scroll and PoK. You will be very happy. Use infantry blocks of at least 20 to stay out of fatality range of the 13th (average of 14 causalities on 4d6)
Control his magic. Take a scroll. Throw all your dispel dice at sear and plan to scroll any 13th that isn't irresistible because you won't have enough dice to dispel his 13th attempt because most skaven player eat their warp stone tokens to get a 13th off and you just won't be able to throw enough dispel dice at it.

Take death lore. Snipe his grey seer and general. He loses.

I never bring shooting against rats, since there are just too many of them. Black guard kill an average of 15 rats per turn for me. They are better than all our other infantry versus rats because they reroll misses every turn, and battles with rats always go more than 1 turn.
Run all your units 7 wide except your spears. Run them as a bus to break steadfast.