Dark Elves and the new army book

[Ichiyo1821]

As promised this space is reserved come the new ab. The moment I get acopy ill give my in depth analysis of the book. So far my early predictions are...

COK will even be more powerful.
Hydra is either out or 1 Kharibdis and 1 Hydra combo. Monster mash will include 2 Hydras, 1 Kharbidss or vice versa and a Manticore/ dp harpy build again.
Dark Riders will be cheaper and will see use again but it all depends if they gain something new or the ppints drop is massive. If not people will still stick to Harpies.
Possible core chariots making monster mash similar to WOC build.

Again I will attempt to make a pure TAC list when the ab comes out with 2250-2500 in mind with the current meta.
Note the new"regen rules" for the Hydra. From the get go it is oth a boon and a nerf. Depending on the wording you can get a weaker hydra or a stronger one depending on the matchup. If you get to regrow wounds on subsequent turns when it does not get flamed and not limited to one wound per turn you could end up with a tougher Hydra. If your opponent doesn,t commit and kill it on one turn, it will get back its wounds..

[Calisson]

Hey hey hey!!!
Michio is back, the author of no less than the Druchii Go Rin No Sho!
Please get also in touch with our new D.R.A.I.C.H. Master, Daeron.

At the moment, anything is pure speculation, as we have no idea about the pts cost and of most of the rules.
But as soon as the nex AB reaches the shleves, we well all thrive to get the best of it.

[Ichiyo1821]

Thanks Cal you might want to do a speling check though..hahaha


Brain fart, I was toying with my tried and true 2500 list and the point changes make it rather aub optimized however I see a very very strong synergy with a beast list and lore of beasts.

Wyssan's Wildform plus PoD seems potent.
Curse of Anraheir + Scourgerunner for the lolz.
Cast Anraheir and the new ld bomb spell then melee or shoot.
All mounted beast list plus transformation of Khadon.

Cok, 2 Hydras barebones, 2Kharybdiss bare bones, 5 units of DR on unit of 10 with sorc the rest are 5 man. Scourgerunner. Posisible 5 monsters turn 2 charge. You can shoot one but you wont be able to take them all out in one turn. Multicharge redirect everything else. Steadfast should give in to sheer number of high S attacks.


Again sont have the book yet just throwing ideas as usual.

Corsairs seem to be the better core choice this time around due to the points increase...my core heavy lists are starting to feel fat and overcosted despite the reductions to heroes and lords. RBTs seem viable again again just because of the points increase of rxbmen and it moving to special. Infantey heavy DE seems nerfed hard imo. Yes we got our swordsmen back but for 9 points jusst to have a chance to parry? S3 weapon with no additoonal attacks from ranks makes me think i'd rather just load up on sheer number of attacks.


Quick note, the CoB now able to march is HUGE. Now officially on a chariot base, it wil always be in range for the bsb support.

[Calisson]

Sorry for the spelling, I mixed up Miyamoto Musashi + Ichiyo = Michio.

Based on rumours, DE has become more of a glass cannon than ever.
Overall, new DE inflict a lot of damage, but are more expensive and even less resilient than they used to be.
It will require aggressiveness to take advantage of our formidable combat capabilities for the win;
but it will require finesse in the preparation, in order to find out the best synergies,
and finesse in the execution, in order to avoid bad match-ups.

I look forwards to reading your five books,
- Earth: the basement, about individual units diverse fighting abilities;
- Water: the link, binding units together with synergies;
- Fire: the action, using the army as a whole for the sole purpose of global victory;
- Wind: know your enemy, their strength and weaknesses;
- Void: training and principles are not absolute but must be selected to adapt to the situation encountered.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Mr. Calisson, you got my attention with five rings now. Have you considered writing a tactical article based on these principles on your own? Yes, I know it will be theory hammer at this stage but that is the beauty of it. You form your thoughts in appropriate words and they will be forged in iron in the heat of battle so they will become the wisdom eternal.

[Ming]

I bow to your wisdom, Calisson!
You should really try, as Swordmaster says.

[Calisson]

First wisdom is not to comment an army book which is not released yet.
Second wisdom is not to hijack Ichiyo1821 pledge to write such an article, and especially not in his own thread.
Read his Go Rin No Sho article here: Trains of Thought
I'm looking forwards to reading his update.

[Liquidedust]

Honestly the more I read the rumours the more I wonder how to make a competitive list without major point sinks and deathstar tactics.

I am not complaining per se but I am still trying to wrap my head around things.
The way I see it we got toned down a lot and we seem to hae to rely on magic to build competetive lists.

Against what I faec most of the time (Empire, Ogres and Tomb Kings) a 5+ save might as well be no save at all the majority of the time.

Warriors seems like a tad overpriced compared to corsairs, they are the same old but I am not sure I like T3 targets in light armour at 9 points apiece.

Witch Elves are awesome, but in reality even more fragile than before due to cauldron changes in new book. And without a cauldron they will be pretty much blasted to bits by Ogres, Empire and Tomb Kings before they can even see battle (a cauldron allviates this some but then it becomes an all eggs in one basket type of deal instead).

Corsairs are really the winners how odd it might sound and no real complaints against them, they aren't the best at anything in core but they instead do everything decent enough.

Dark Riders with reduced points cost are awesome, but at the same time makes harpies redundant . . . .

Shades are well shades, they are good but have no durability, and gone are the day of shade/assasins darts that annoy and weaken monsters.

Executioners are awesome with new rerolls, but suffer in the same way as witch elves with new cauldron rules.

Black Guard really are the biggest losers in new book unless you dedicate both a sorceress and Kouran to them, at which they become too pricey to be viable. And sadly witch elves do the job they are supposed to but better (combination of higher points cost and also the reduced allowance on magical banners, I mean 25p limit on magical banners on our elite infantry?)

Harpies at higher points cost than before and can also cause panic in dark elves units now . . I mean why would I take them over dark riders like ever?

Cold One Knights still have the same problems as before, but can no longer be buffed by a cauldron or have the hydra banner. New rules makes them slightly better against monstrous cav but you still need a fairly large unit for them to be realiable. (also a more cramped special sections makes it harder to fit them in)

Cold One Chariots are as good as they always were no complaints there, but they still suffer from the same issues as before.

Scourgerunners are good as well, but a single mobile warmachine wont win you battles sadly.

Hydras aren't bad per se, but with the new rules it becomes a matter of again always take 2 (preferably 3) if you want one of them to see combat . . . . And no handlers on the hydras, we lose additional attacks as well as additional wound tokens on the hydra not to mention a decent leadership for the unit . . . . I mean with leadship 6, the first panic check or break test a hydra has to take it will most likely hightail off the board and not rally unless near general or have bsb re-roll.

Reaper Bolt Throwers in special and at 70 points is well, were they belong (though with the arbitrary limit on 4 of them they might as well stayed in rare and be a 2 for 1 choice).

Sisters of Slaughter, a solid support unit but they are just that a support unit which can be ingored by you opponent a majority of the time and instead focus destroy what they are supposed to support and make them pricey witch elves in rare . . . .

Warlocks are amazing, there is no denial in that

Kharybdiss is a souped out strong monster, but suffers a lot for having no handlers and low Ld the same way as described for the hydra sadly :/

Sure there is a lot of synergy in the army, the problem is you only have to remove 1-3 threats in the army and the whole battleline falls down like a house of cards.

I mean I might just look at this overly bleak, but I see an entire battleline of glass cannons with a lot of synergy where you only have to carve out the main units and the support units cannot do much on their own :/

[Ichiyo1821]

Alas the devil is in the details. My biggest irk is that we don't have the exact wordings for the COB. Did it lose the ability to grant plus 1 attack or does the frenzy it give limited to the unit carrying it?

They allegedly lose the monsters and handlers rule but does the Hdyra and Khar lose the attacks as well? Handler attacks as well or did they just simplify the old DE rule that our monster handlers can never be targeted?

Though we can now use the COB ala Screaming Bell and will look aesthetically pleasing to put it in the middle of the unit, it is actually better to put the Cauldron to the side as you need the WE to be in b2b contact more than the COB.

Harpies still jold an advantage agaimst DR simply because it is flying and can jop over units when DR cannot while having a smaller footprint. The point cost however and the loss of their beasts rule is somewhat an annoyance.

Again we have gained some and lose some. Anyway no complajms here as we all need to adjust. At the moment I am trying to grasp what does DE do best in the new book.


I see a lot attack oriented themes and the more I look at it we don't seem to need an anvil unit per se. Where our HE cousins might typically have one large unit of say spears and such, I find it redundant for DE.

Here's a sample list I've been looking at. This is me starting to just edit first my old list with the new adjustments.
And already I am not satisfied about it. I do like however the idea that I can now have 5 hammer units in a list. Again I am a fan of mulitple threats of roughly the same power value.



Dreadlord on Dp, full mundane, tots, dawnstone , twilight
SS-Shadow

30 Corsairs
20 WE plus Cauldron
20 RxB
5DR
5DR

12 CoK
Hydra
Hydra

Kharibdis

[Calisson]

COB must be placed as close as the center of the unit it joins. No side placement.

[Gidean]

Sorry for the spelling, I mixed up Miyamoto Musashi + Ichiyo = Michio.

Based on rumours, DE has become more of a glass cannon than ever.
Overall, new DE inflict a lot of damage, but are more expensive and even less resilient than they used to be.
It will require aggressiveness to take advantage of our formidable combat capabilities for the win;
but it will require finesse in the preparation, in order to find out the best synergies,
and finesse in the execution, in order to avoid bad match-ups.

To sum up the above...we don't have an I WIN button anymore? Hmm..guess we'll have to put some devious planning into winning those games.

[Ichiyo1821]

I see. That might be a small nuisance or maybe not. So far my logic dictates that having spearmen or swordsmen is like gimping yourself. I honestly feel people will be taking Corsairs or WE and some DR and RxB for core alone. For specials everyrhing seems to have it's place. For rare everything is viable but the SoS seem to be a unit you either build around on or take because you want to go with a theme. Don't get me wrong their abilities are great but again if you start filling your mandatory units first, by the time you get to them , you will barely have points left. My biggest concern now is DE's anility to clear chaff. We have tools from Shades, Rxbmen DR etc etc on paper but with the increased points its a matter of how many chaff clearers can we bring without sacrificing our own? Will we see DE return to our heavy msu comp?

[Liquidedust]

I see. That might be a small nuisance or maybe not. So far my logic dictates that having spearmen or swordsmen is like fimping yourself. I honeslty feel people will be taking Corsairs or WE and some DR and RxB for core alone. For specials everyrhing seems to have it's place. For rare everytjing is viable but the SoS seem to be a unit you either build around oon or take because you want to go with a theme. Don't get me wrong their aabilities are great but again if you srart filling your mandatory units first, by the time you get to them , you will barely have points left. My biggest concern now is DE's anility to clear chaff. We have tools from Shades, Rxbmen DrR etc etc on papaer nut with the increased ppoints its a mtter of haow mamy chaff clearers can we bring without sacrificing our own? Will we see DE return to our heavy msu comp?

Tends to be either no restrictions or swedish comp here in Sweden. A MSU style army as well as a big block horde deathstar army are both actually quite hard to fit into swedish comp, which makes the current meta at least here.

Swedish comp kicks you in the nuts for multiples as well as large units so the current meta at least here makes our new book hard to build around. (not to mention that ASF as is is heavily comped in swedish comp)

[Ichiyo1821]

Ok let'ts start the ball rolling niw. As usual I ALWAYS stary an army with core\troops first so here we go.

Before we go to specials and rare with the current edition(rumors of 9th ed are in the air) lets dicuss the core units. With the current rule set and consideration of where and how we will fit a Supreme Sorceress in the list I find Dreadspears and Bleakswords to be lackluster.

In our prior book it was a no brainer that having a spearblock as dagger fuel was considered the ieeal choice. However with the point change to Spearelves to 9ppm, suddenly sacrificing that model with the new changes to the Sacrificial dagger itself warrants some rhought. I use to kill guy at almost every spell cast now that maybe unwise.

At a more point or two difference consider what our current core infantry offers that the other cannot.
(Darkshards/Crossbowmen for the meantime will be exclued as we consider them at the moment almostandatorybas chaff clearers)

Corsairs - 2 attacks, 4 +as 10ppm - 11 ppm
Dreadspears - 1 attack, with extra supporting attack rank 5 + as- 9ppm
Bleakswords - 1 attack, parry save 5+ as- 9 ppm
Wiitch Elves - 3 attacks, poison - 12ppm

At a mere 1 point difference you gain at the very least 1 more s3 attack whenbyou take WE or Corsairs. At 9points per model it is very expensive to field a horde of spears or swords thus the idea of gaining the additional attack via horde formation is imo not really a good idea throw in the thought that should you include the Cauldron then that unit suddenly becomes a HUGE point sink that dies as easily to Dwellers and the New DE 6th spell Vortex. As I have repeatedly told people before that we are simply not suppose to be horde' ish and apparently the rules maker at gw agree with me with the point changes. Now a block of 30 infantry comes close to 300 points as opposed to225-235ish. For 300 points, if that unit cannot even kill opposing core units of equal value then imo that unit is too expensive all themore if being a mage bunker is all they are good at.

Now both Spearmen and Swordsmen offer the same s3 attack with spearmen trading the extra rank for the ability to parry. Now honestly had it been the old pointage I would trade those spears for swords in a heartbeat. If you are looking to use them as a Sorceress bunker and dagger fuel, you are essentially paying and slotting for that and since tue Dagger needs you to roll a 4+ for it to work, people will be more deliberate when and should they actually use it. Now for purposes of being a bunker if you are not sacrificing a model to be dagger fuel it might as well be any unit right and why not the point cheaper spear/swordelf? While that seems logical may I point out that the point increase for models is across the board thus you have to consider just what else does the points for the bunker eat up from the rest of the army.

One can argue that the new power of Darkness gives +1s thus making them s4 swords\spears but if you are casting that spell for the strength bonus purpose it means that the unit is or has to be engagd in close combat and from that situation alone anyone would rather go all out with Corsair and Witches. If I was foolish enogh to let you near my bunker or you really had the tools or skill to do it, I would want to atleast take that unit with me.

Having Corsairs or WE also helps again with the mind games of having ALL your units as threats. He ca. Ignore that block of Spears but if it were a block of crazed witches your opponent will think twice about letting them near his lines. Most often than not DE clear chaff mid game(turn3-4) that it's safe to assume that we can almost always detach the Sorceress and let her join another unit or go on foot on her own. This allows every unit a DE army has to engage targets and not be idle.

As of the moment I cannot think of a situation where you'd rather take swords or spears with our current ruleset. Re-rolling to wound rolls via COB and Murderous Prowess suggests that our army is being pointed to be the ultimate glass canon army and I think DE should oblige.

[Liquidedust]

Corsairs would be 11ppm not 10 though and witches 12ppm

[Ichiyo1821]

Corrected. Even then it still seems that the Warrior kits are meh...

[Calisson]

WE 12 ppm? I had seen 11ppm.




A thorough analysis based on rumours shows that pretty much each unit has a role. Here are them with suggested roles.

-=-=-

Spear bus. 5 more attacks than swords but lose 6++.
Spear horde. Cheapest horde, many attacks.

Swords are the most resistant MSU unit vs S>4.
Swords bus. 6++ but lose 5 attacks to spears. If ranks is all that matters, the best option.
Swords horde. Cheapest horde, less attacks than spears but better protection.

Naked corsairs (9 ppm without AHW nor RHB, if that option is confirmed) are the most resistant MSU unit vs S<6. Outstanding shielding unit.
Naked corsairs bus. Exactly like swords with 4++ instead of 5+6++.

AHW Corsairs MSU unit combines attacks and resistance.
AHW corsairs bus. Better armour, better attacks, but slightly more expensive than warriors.
AHW corsairs horde. Cheap even if not cheapest, many attacks, good protection.

WE are the most offensive MSU unit per pts.
WE horde. Cheap, incredible amount of attacks. Best use of COB, but uses no other characters.

DR large unit as medium cavalry. Very fast unit with correct attacks, S & save.

Naked Shades can get high S and are the most versatile MSU unit with shots and skirmish, but the most fragile too.

GW shades can be considered as a fighting unit. Correct attacks and S. Shoot & skirmish. Bad M, armour.

Execs have highest S MSU unit.
Execs fighting unit has correct number of high S attacks, KB. Bad M & armour.
Execs horde/death star. Cheap, high S attacks KB. But dangerous for characters. Tullaris.

BG are stubborn & ItP, very nice for an MSU unit.
BG fighting unit. Many attacks, stubborn. Bad M, armour.
BG horde/death star. Many attacks. Unbreakable with Kouran and can get all characters.

Sisters are best fighting MSU unit.
Sisters fighting unit. Many attacks, protection in melee. Deny ranks. Bad M, S.
Sisters horde/death star. Many attacks, good protection in melee and can get all characters.

COK small fighting unit. Excellent unit, with reasonable speed. Best overall.
COK death star. Expensive, few attacks, but outstanding protection and can get all characters.

COC. Deadly on the charge but slow. Reasonable protection.

Hydra. Correct attacks and S, good protection, mediocre M.

K-yss. Highest S. But slow and few attacks for that price. Average protection.

Stand-alone Medusa chariot. May join infantry unit. Rather mediocre stand-alone unit otherwise.

Dragon. Great speed, S, armour. But most expensive, few attacks for the cost.

Manticore. Great speed, correct S. Too few attacks and no protection.

Pegasus Lord. Great speed, armour and magic objects. But few attacks.


Overall, which fighting unit is best? Hard to say.
It depends on your style (MSU, fast/slow hammers with or without bus, horde/death star) and your meta-environment.

-=-=-

In the support business, we find new augments for the fighting units:

- COB chariot. Best support for WE, which can get hardly any character but DH. Both could support other units, too, especially Execs.
- “S” boosting sorceress on CO. Great support for COK.
- In addition to Magic object wearing lords/heroes, Witchbrew DH.
- Special characters (Malekith, Kouran, Tullaris).
- Magic augments such as Beast sig.
- Shadowblade, assassins (great to provide magic objects to Khainites).

-=-=-

The army book presents several new possibilities to hamper opponent’s psychology. In conjunction with a strong melee, that might prove a powerful augment.
- Terror (dragon, manticore, hydra, Kharybdyss, Lokhir); fear (COK/COC and DH cry of war).
- Death #1 causes fear or terror, Fire #3 Burning Head causes a panic test.
Now, consider also that:
- DH’s cry of war: all fear test made by enemy unit in base contact with hag suffer -3LD.
- Medusa’s shrine (aura of agony) gives +1Ld to units of this AB, -1Ld to everything else at 6”.
- Assassins’ black lotus: for each unsaved wound suffered by the character, he gets a cumulative -1LD – this poison works on range weapons.
- Kharybdyss makes reroll successful LD for those in base contact (abyssal howl).
- Dark Spell 4 Shroud of Despair: all units within 12” lose general Ld & BSB rerolls till own next magic phase. If fail Ld, gets -1 Ld till own next magic phase.
- Heavens’ sig makes -1 to Ld for 1 turn.
- Death #4 makes -3 to Ld for 1 turn.

-=-=-

For agile troops, we get:
- Shades are excellent scouts. They are slow but can shoot.
- AHW Shades are good warmachine hunters. They are slow but can shoot.
- Harpies are cheapest & fastest but hardly achieve anything and cannot be joined by characters. Their best role is to position where it hampers the opponent.
- DR are core and make an excellent agile troop with muso. Shields are always good to have.
- Warlocks can make a good harassing unit, especially with their Doombolt MM at 18”.
- Pegasus Master is more than twice the price of other agile troops, but it is the most resilient, especially with the Cloak of Twilight.

-=-=-

For shooters, we get:
- RHB in MSU. Much better than before as taunting unit.
- RHB horde. Durable, makes a fun S&S reaction.
- RXB in MSU. Good long range shooting. More expensive and less durable than corsairs.
- RXB horde. Very expensive, but remains useful at range. 6++ in melee.
- RXB DR. Outstanding range, but the price per shot is 50% higher. Shields must-have.
- Naked shades in MSU provide the best cost effective shot.
- Warlocks: their MM is akin to shooting attack at competitive price and high S.
- RBT multishot cost is between RXBmen and DR, with greatest range.
- Medusa shrine shooting ability is probaby not its main business. We lack info.

The high S shots cost much more than the lower S ones.
- RBT high S bolt is the best cost-effective, by very far.
- Scrunner pts per effective shot is triple the RBT’s. But it may self babysit.
- Beastmaster’s scrunner is as effective as basic scrunner, thanks to BS.
- Magic-users (Magic Missiles) are more cost-effective than before.

-=-=-

Comparing everything's cost/effectiveness, the only units I discard at this stage are the following:
- Manti (maybe I discarded some special rule which makes it more useful),
- DR without shields.
- Also, Fleetmaster struggles to find a role, probably because he is too new for me to understand his use except for fluff.

-=-=-

With all these units competing for similar roles with slight advantages and disadvantages, this calls for a strong variety rather than same unit taken over and over.
I would happily consider an MSU army made with a single one of each potential MSU unit.
I would happily consider a classic hammer/bus army with no double unit at all.
I would happily try all kind of hordes, and fine-tune them.
I would happily take a sample of each agile unit and each shooter rather than same x 2 or x 3.

That would well illustrate Miyamoto Musashi's teaching about the two sabres: variety is good, take both the long sabre and the short sabre.

[Setomidor]

Corrected. Even then it still seems that the Warrior kits are meh...

totally agree with you there. My current core is:

5 Dark Riders, Xbows, Shields
5 Dark Riders, Xbows, Shields
5 Dark Riders, Xbows, Shields
15 Crossbows, musician, std flaming
10 Witch Elves, mus

Should end up just above the minimal required core and it gives me what I need: flaming shooting to do that single wound and remove Reg from enemy monsters, fast cav, and a unit of WE that may be very useful against some armies like Beastmen, DoC and VC.

[Omnichron]

I really like the Cry of War from the DH together with a terror causing monster... I think I'll try a few WE lists with DR filling the rest of the core. Shades will still be my main unit for shooting

[Bounce]

I totally agree, everytime I start thinking of lists I just end up including everything.

[Ichiyo1821]

My concern actually is what is our best BSB. I want to say that the COB is still the way to go say inside 20 Witches but the removal of the buffs to units makes me think twice..

[Setomidor]

My concern actually is what is our best BSB. I want to say that the COB is still the way to go say inside 20 Witches but the removal of the buffs to units makes me think twice..

Hands down a Pegasus master with the Cloak. He's very durable against ranged attack and fills a very important role just killing Warmachines, staying alive and maybe do the odd supporting charge.

[Ichiyo1821]

Regarding a Master on Peg, the risk again is that the BSB is too far away from the main battle line.

[Setomidor]

Yeah, He will need to sort his business fast and get back

[strategem]

I am thinking out load here but seeing that swedish comp hits us hard for multiple of same units we could vertualy do a msu list with a bit of everything and have soft comp scores. heres hoping anyway