whats your opinion on The Black Guard

[kkokog]

greetings generals

i want to introduced myself, my name is kkokog.
i just want to ask your opinion on the black guards coz i have a "friendly" battle with an old friend of mine and i was planning to get 30 BG FCMD with razor banner?
but some of my friends are telling me to get rid of the BG and replace them with executioners?

what are your thoughts? should i stick with my BG or Exec? or get both
and my old friend's army is WoC

thank you

[Calisson]

Execs are specialists. BG are generalists. If you have Execs, you need WE, not BG. If you don't have Execs, then BG are good to go.
Execs boosted with frenzy compare to BG boosted with higher S.

... and, not to forget, welcome kkokog to D.net!

[Ichiyo1821]

In tjis incarnation and meta I say go execs for high str, WE for clearing rbf BG lost all that had it going for them simply because everyone else got better while they gained nothing.

[Sulla]

In tjis incarnation and meta I say go execs for high str, WE for clearing rbf BG lost all that had it going for them simply because everyone else got better while they gained nothing.

Everyone else (khainites and the pendant lord)lost stubborn...time will tell how important that ability might be for DE.

[Trax]

The only element where I routinely relied on stubborn were my witch elf speed bumps in 12" around the old cauldron, where one or two surviving witches would hold the onslaught of way larger units whilst carving quite a big hole in the unit. The stubbornness of the BG was mostly a nonfactor for me. Useful sometimes, but not their main selling point.

[Gidean]

They went up 2 points. I suppose that is fair for ASF and Murderous Prowess. Plus no cap anymore...if you loved them before you should now.

[Trax]

To be fair in comparison to before the ASF is *almost* (not completely because HE and only a few other instances) useless with them having warrior elite/eternal hatred. Guess the Murderous prowess is nice, but +2 is kinda harsh, especially in comparison with units that got way more mileage out of ASF (like witches for instance).

[Ichiyo1821]

In tjis incarnation and meta I say go execs for high str, WE for clearing rbf BG lost all that had it going for them simply because everyone else got better while they gained nothing.

Everyone else (khainites and the pendant lord)lost stubborn...time will tell how important that ability might be for DE.

Whoah missed that one. BG lost their stubborn? Very un-flufflike. Maybe they thought it would be redundant as these lost the cap and steadfast with them is now possible. Still not justified though..

[Gidean]

In tjis incarnation and meta I say go execs for high str, WE for clearing rbf BG lost all that had it going for them simply because everyone else got better while they gained nothing.

Everyone else (khainites and the pendant lord)lost stubborn...time will tell how important that ability might be for DE.

Whoah missed that one. BG lost their stubborn? Very un-flufflike. Maybe they thought it would be redundant as these lost the cap and steadfast with them is now possible. Still not justified though..

No they have stubborn as before.

[Daeron]

They can still work, but it will be more difficult because of the point increase. The setup I had in last edition costed about 306 points. The same setup would now cost 365 points and all they gained is ASF. But, that doesn't make them useless. They are a very solid all round unit. I'd still put them before any cavalry or infantry, and wouldn't even back down from some monstrous cav.

In a 30 large unit, with the AP banner, and perhaps a small sorc to boost their strength, you have a deadly unit right there.

[Dalamar]

They went up in price and we can't protect them as well (no more 5++ cauldron blessing) so they'll be much harder to use effectively.

Pretty much look at how many High Elves use Swordmasters (hint: not many) and they're cheaper than BG.

[Shade3413]

Well they do seem like they'd be one of the best recipients of Mindrazor in the book. Perhaps Witch elves could give them a run. But yes, innate LD 9 and the two attacks base make them great infantry for this spell.

[Poisonblade]

I still like them, although it's very close between them and Executioners now. I play against a lot of Khemri and Vampire Counts, so my opinion may be skewed towards greater number of attacks and immune to psychology.

I think Black Guard benefit more from the rerolls to wound that a nearby Cauldron gives.

Stubborn also means I can rely on them to hold a unit in place to hit them with a Khari or Pegasus Master.

[HERO]

Would take if 13ppm, but 15 is too much for my tastes.

[Fallenturtle]

I love them for the simple fact that they're str 4 ASF WITH RE-ROLLS. They also benefit more from spells like power of darkness, Wildform etc. than executioners. Sure, you're basically paying for ASF and MP but black guard have always been a murder machine for me, and will continue to be. Also, 9th is rumored to be out next year, we do not know what 25 point magic weapons they will come up with in the new edition and BG can take those unlike executioners.

It also depends on what's in your meta. if you see a lot of initiative 5 guys on the field, Warriors, other elves etc, than BG are the choice due to not only guaranteeing that you'll be able to put the hurt on and might mitigate attacks back if it's a rather small unit.

[Shearov]

I'll carry on taking some for a while probably. They seems good for tournament lists, as with the right buffing they could do the job against most armies, as opposed to the more 'specialist' troops.

[Omnichron]

I wouldn't bother with them anymore to be honest. I used them in tournaments a couple of times with the previous book, and they weren't really that great back then.

Witch Elves are better against most troops and monsters while Exectutioners are better against armor.

[Setomidor]

Would take if 13ppm, but 15 is too much for my tastes.

Amen, brother.

Can see a use for them in MSU armies because they give access to Stubborn, but they are still a very expensive roadbump at 160 pts (for 10 + musician). If you bring a big unit and need their Stubborn that means they're not winning combats, and then you're doing it wrong

Even in the world of Occam's Mindrazor, I'd rather have small units of Core Witch Elves to do the killing glass-cannon style.

[phlewis]

Black Guard with Kouran are expensive but whether they win the combat or not they will not go away until you either kill Kouran or every last Black Guard. With Kouran being WS 9 he is going to be hard to hit in close combat. So if you need an anvil in your army the Black Guard are an option to consider. ItP and Unbreakable makes them a pretty good immovable object.

[Dalamar]

Actually I figured something out... sisters are the same cost and seem far more useable. Similar negligible armor from a distance, much better protected in combat, wounding same or better as bg, one point less of armor piercing, awesome ability.

[Ming]

I'll keep using Black Guard.
They are no more a stand alone unit; they need to be near the CoB unit, in order to get frenzy when already in combat; and they need to host a Sorceress to get + 1 str. with PoD.
My base set up would be an army centre made of Witches with cauldron and Black guard with SS.
Dark riders, warlocks and shades on the flanks, RHB corsairs and SoS as rearguard.

[Daeron]

The more I theorycraft on the performance of BGs, the more I get the impression that with an armor piercing banner they really are up to par with most units we have... in anything but the more extreme circumstances. Their performance starts taking a hit after T5 and a high armor save... But take either T3 and even a 2+ armor save won't save you from their onslaught, or take a high T and low armor, and their sheer number of attacks will punch through.

Now the fun part is that they need their BSB to make the stubborn even more effective, but they don't need the general. So this could pair well with a double sorc list, or a list with a flying lord of destruction. If you go low on magic (only taking a sorc, not a supreme), then you can boost that phase with some warlocks. It's all about flavour I suppose.

[Greg]

I am really seeing them in extreme msu lists as tarpits. I think in this edition stubborn is their greatest ability. Most other roles can be done better by others. Nothing else gets stubborn without a character.

[Dalamar]

Except I see no relevant situation in which Black Guard would be better than Sisters of Slaughter which is somewhat depressing as I love my Black Guard.

[HERO]

Except I see no relevant situation in which Black Guard would be better than Sisters of Slaughter which is somewhat depressing as I love my Black Guard.

New duty issued by Malekith: Proxy for another 7 years.