Army Review with Ratings

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Shadoer
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Shadoer »

HERO wrote:
Your point about Fear is a very weak one: All of the top armies are simply immune to its effects, and others can pass the tests without an issue. Having Shroud of Despair and actually getting it off in close combat while you're trying to Cry of War people isn't going to work (unless of course, you're playing weak players).


Well first of all, the only armies that are immune to the effects of Cry of War are: Ogres, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Daemons, and Warriors of Chaos if they all take the Mark of Khorne or Slannesh. Out of those the top tournament armies are Daemons and Ogres. Warriors of Chaos are a top tournament army, but they usually take the Mark of Nurgle or the Mark of Tzeentch. So really your argument only applies to the Ogres and the Daemons in regards to "Top Tournament Armies".

Now against those armies, you're right the Cry of War is rather wasted. However the Hag carrying it isn't as she's immune to the effects of fear as well and both Daemons and Ogres have high toughness, low armor units she can do a bunch of damage to before she dies. Against Daemons especially she can likely knock off a herald which will greatly help your cause.

HERO wrote:This suggests you're either taking a supporting caster with Tome for Shroud specifically (bad choice in tournaments, gimmicky, and thus a waste of points), or have Dark Magic on your Lv.4 (which is poor vs. the top 3 armies in the game). Of course, this is all based off the premise that you're taking a Death Hag, someone who adds barely any utility to an army whose focus should be outmaneuvering, out-smarting, and reaching favorable combat situations to begin with.


No, the Tome of Shroud is a great item for tournaments as you guarantee which Dark Magic spell you want and you can choose the spell when generating for which spells you take. So you don't have to take Shroud if you don't want to. However, against the "top" tournament armies it's still really useful.

Ogres have a base leadership of 7 and can get it up to a maximum of 9 with a good general. That means with the shroud on, you have a better than 50% chance of panicking a unit of Iron Guts off the board.

Warriors of Chaos usually take units like Skullcrushers of Khorne that are frenzy and with the shroud you can have a much easier time pulling them where you need them to go. Also, provided that you win combat, it will also give you a much better chance of breaking Warriors in Combat provided they don't have the Mark of Khorne or Slannesh. And if they have the Mark of Khorne, again you can use the Shroud to lead them around the board.

Daemons are still affected by the shroud as they won't be able to use their general's leadership or bsb when they take a stability test, helping you to off more Daemons if you win combat. Less useful here I'll admit, but it can certainly be valuable to help clear out a unit.

HERO wrote:The greatest thing about this book is that it's now a book for thinkers and true tacticians. You can't easy mode any victory anymore, the tools are simply not there. No 7th Ed. Cauldron, Pendant Stubborn Peggy Lord, push-forward Ld.8 Hydras, Sac Dagger for units you barely pay for. You really have to outplay your opponents to win now. Don't fall into the Death Hag, Cauldron, giant Witch unit trap. That's all it is, a big trap laid out in front of you so I can fodder units into it for days and lead that 800+ unit around the map aimlessly while I kill everything else.


Nonsense! We have our new insane Sorceress that can take life and sacrifice soldiers, then rez them back! (I am so taking this)

Right now I don't see anyone really trying to push a Cauldron army. Even though I gave it a really good review, I did emphasis you do need to build your army around the thing because it's so expensive. I think most players are working on how to fit in as many Krhibs as possible and get them into CC in order to get all of those sweet Str7 attacks in.
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by HERO »

Well first of all, the only armies that are immune to the effects of Cry of War are: Ogres, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Daemons, and Warriors of Chaos if they all take the Mark of Khorne or Slannesh. Out of those the top tournament armies are Daemons and Ogres. Warriors of Chaos are a top tournament army, but they usually take the Mark of Nurgle or the Mark of Tzeentch. So really your argument only applies to the Ogres and the Daemons in regards to "Top Tournament Armies".


No, it applies to WoC because they have very high leadership with the ability to re-roll, and VC, not so much TK because we won't ever see them.

Honestly, this applies specifically to Shroud of Despair, which is a decent spell, and being magic, can be dispelled or stopped. It's all hypothetical scenarios and should not be relied on. The example I gave with the Tome and Shroud specifically deals with the Fearbomb mechanic of Cry of War.

Not sure which part of my paragraph is considered nonsense. The entire point I'm trying to make is that you should not be relying on Fear-tactics at all because it's a gimmick. Magic too, it can be stopped and you can fail. That's like playing an army that can't win without being able to successfully cast 6-dice Mindrazor/Choir/Fiery.

I think most players are working on how to fit in as many Krhibs as possible and get them into CC in order to get all of those sweet Str7 attacks in.


I think that number is 2, and you should be able to get them in every list since they're only 160 a piece.
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Dalamar »

I don't know what WoC you play against, but WoC have average leadership and without Inspiring Presence they suffer. As for the ability to re-roll... well, Shroud of Despair.

No, it will not work perfectly every time, but you seem to be missing the big picture. The army is still there and the army is built to win regardless of Shroud or not. But *if* shroud happens to work, a win turns into a slaughter and a loss into a win.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by HERO »

*If* Mindrazor happens to work, a win also turns into a slaughter, and a loss into a win.

But we can't rely on that happening every time now can we? Don't rely on Fear + Shroud, that's all I have to say.
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Dalamar »

Mindrazor makes you win one combat (maybe, some units don't care). It is a highly overrated spell that is on top of that hard to cast.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Dyvim tvar »

Let's all try to get along, shall we? Watch the tone everybody.
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Saintofm »

Psyc tests do fail. I doubt there is one of us who hasn't played Cold one Chariots or Knights and not failed one that 10th time, when the other 9 we passed perfectly.

If it's a matter of High LD, then WoC, elves, and dwarves pose a problem but again I have seen them fail fear and terror tests, and I have had the nasty luck of cold one knights chasing something shiny into a forest (and thus having to take a dangerous terrain test).

If it's because the army is glaringly immune to fear, then undead, ogres, and daemons have us beat there BUT it keeps our units from suffering from it.
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Bounce »

My ratings from pure theory at the moment would be
Warriors- 2/5 They aren't going to kill anything and are now more expensive to boot
Crossbows-3/5 Always seem to be hitting on 6's and don't do much damage, this hasn't changed
Corsairs-3.5/5 I like them better than crossbows, they can go on the attack and shoot stuff at the same time rather than just sitting on the back line and firing
Witch Elves- 5/5 What's not to love? They pump out heaps of attacks, ASF, I6, Poison, Murderous Prowess. All you need to do is hit your opponent with Soulblight, Withering or your witches with Mindrazor, Wildform and they will desecrate the enemy
Dark Riders- 4/5 A bit cheaper makes me want to take them again

Executioners- 5/5 Will now usually strike first so smaller units of them is reasonable. Murderous prowess means pretty much anything that hits will wound and with WS5 they should manage that. Against High Elf White Lions muhahahahah.
Black guard- 4/5 I'd rather take Witches or Executioners now though
RBT- 4/5 Much cheaper. Combos with Soulblight from Warlocks is nasty.

Warlocks- 5/5 From what I can see these guys will be great. Can just run around in the open zapping stuff and debuffing stuff or both. Very dark elfy.

CoB- 2/5 Initally I thought this looked awesome but on further considerations I am not sure. It's extra attack bound spell is mitigated by you could just take 20 more models in the unit instead. It's re rolls to wound are a bit redundant with murderous prowess. Could be interesting running it not in a unit and with two chariots on each side perhaps?
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Calisson »

[Mod] note @ Liquidedust & HERO (& Shadoer to a lesser extent)
D.net is a civilized forum. Don't make it personal. Tit for tat bickering may be OK in Ulthuan ;) , but not here.
Thanks.

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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Shadoer »

Special Units
===============

Harpies
---------------

Rating: 2.5/5 (Previous Rating 0/5)

Review: The darlings of 7th edition, the Harpies have been nerfed into oblivion. Now they can cause panic in our Dark Elves, take up special points, have gone up in points, and they still have leadership 6. Also, unlike the Harpies from the Storm of Chaos, we can't buy them any upgrades to make them more useful.

Also everything else in our army can do what they can do, just better. Dark Riders, Warlocks, and Shades are all great at killing warmachines and have more utility as well as staying power than Harpies.

Even their fluff has been butchered as all the cool stuff about them possibly being the cursed reincarnation of Witch Elves have been taken away and all that's left is they're lucky scavengers that follow our raiders around.

In short, leave them at home.

Edit: Alright it has been pointed out to me that while there are better alternatives, Harpies are not completly worthless. They are our cheapest sacrificial unit available and they can fly so it is potentially easier for them to get to an enemy warmachine. It's still a massive pain that they can cause our units to panic and they have a leadership of 6, but they aren't a terrible replacement if you don't have Dark Riders, Shades, or Warlocks available. They aren't also bad if you just want an additional way to get rid of enemy warmachines and have some points to spare.

Shades
---------------

Rating: 5/5

Review: In addition to now having ASF, the option of either dual hand weapons or great weapons, options for light armor, Ballistic Skill of 5, Weapon Skill 5, they can also have full command. Basically if you want an elite team of badasses to go behind enemy lines and cause damage, these are your guys.

In choosing your loadout for these guys you should either go with Great Weapons or the Extra Hand Weapons, taking them without either upgrade is a bad idea as the upgrades will greatly up their utility and effectiveness. You want these guys to do as much damage as they can, as fast as they can. The extra 2 points per model is a small price to pay.

Great Weapon Shades can help you threaten small units of enemy cavalry and still be excellent War Machine killers. They do lose the rerolls because of the ASL and ASF cancellation, but the extra strength will go a long way to helping kill armored targets in small units (like Cavalry) or small units of chaff clearers.

Extra Hand Weapon Shades are mostly stuck hunting artillery. Granted, they keep their rerolls and should finish off the artillery faster than Great Weapon Shades can, but it does mean they aren't going to help you much against any tough or armored targets.

Then there's our new command option, or the reason I wish I have bought Mengala's Man Flayers and curse the stars that GW removed them from the store. The Bloodshade is a bit of a ways as the extra BS doesn't help us much and he doesn't get an extra attack. However both the musician and the standard are huge improvements to the unit and should be taken. Shades have a puny leadership of 8 and are unlikely to receive any help from the General, with a musician their odds of rallying after fleeing will go up dramatically. Also, most of the targets that the Shades should be going against won't have banners, having a banner for the Shades will give you a nice +1 to combat res which will go a long way to you winning the fight.

Finally I've talked a lot about the Shade's melee potential, but it's worth remembering these guys are utterly deadly shooters. They have Ballistic Skill 5 as a base and since they scout, they can appear right at close range to the enemy. If they stay in close range, move, and double tap, they will hit the enemy on 4's.

These things are awesome and the only reason I'm not including them in my army is that the models have aged a lot, and the rules will require a lot of conversions to get them to have great weapons and a banner. Otherwise, they're golden.

War Hydra
----------------

Rating: 3.5/5 (Old Rating 4/5)

Review: A lot of people talked about the end of the Hydra because it lost regeneration and went up a bit in points. While I agree it's not nearly as good as it was before, it still can be a valuable addition to our army.

Let's start with the nerfs. They Hydra is now initiative 2 making him a target for Pits of Shades and Purple Sun, his number of attacks are directly related to the number of wounds he still has, the handlers are now simple eye candy and so that's 6 less armor piercing attacks, no hatred, we have to pay points for the breath weapon, and with the loss of the handlers he's now Leadership 6. This means our hydras can no longer take on a single enemy unit on their own and they are going to be have to be relegated to a heavy support role for blocks of infantry or they big brother the Kharibdyss. There are also some nice buffs the Hydra has received.

Hydras are a Special Choice now so they aren't competing against the Kharibdyss or Warlocks for Rare points. We can now take Life Magic so we can consistently heal the Hydra's wounds. The Dark Elves also have a number of abilities that handicap the enemy's leadership, making the Hydra's terror far more valuable than it was in the past. And also it has the new "... Another One Takes It's Place Rule."

In theory, "... Another One Takes It's Place" (AOTIP)is better than Regeneration. Since Flaming Attacks have been proliferated throughout the Warhammer World, our Regeneration has meant less and less for the Hydras survival. However, AOTIP isn't affected by flaming and it can be far more useful. At the end of every Dark Elf turn the Hydra rolls a D6 for every wound it has and on a 4+ it gets it back. This is not limited to wounds it got that turn, it's a constant regaining of wounds every turn. So whereas before if a cannonball hit the hydra and took off 4 wounds, the hydra would be waiting for death, now in just a turn or so the Hydra will be back to fighting strength. Unless the enemy is willing to focus fire on actually killing the creature, your Hydra can keep absorbing wounds and getting them back.

Then there's it's new range attacks. Unlike before you have to buy the Hydra's breath weapon, but now it's locked in to being a Str4 breath weapon regardless of the number of remaining wounds- a nice buff that should help greatly in CC. Another buy is a "Spit Fire" ability where it can have a shooting attack with range 8" with a strength and multiple shots based on the remaining wounds. It's not that great, but it's a nice option if you want your hydra to harry an enemy with flaming shots rather than engage directly.

Overall if you are looking for a tough monster to support your army, they Hydra is still an excellent option.

Edit: People say I'm being a bit too generous to the hydra, and I probably am. It has lost a bunch of attacks and it is still easier to kill in certain situations than the old hydra. I don't think it's as bad now as some people are saying, but it's definitly lost some of its luster.

Scourgerunner Chariot
-----------------------------

Rating: 1/5

Review: I am so glad that this thing isn't called the Scroungerunner like some of the rumors suggested. Our equivalent of the High Elf Skycutter, the Scroungerunner is potentially far more useful but is hindered by some painful limitations.

In theory this guy is just what we needed: A mobile Str 7 bolt thrower that can help us kill monsters and engage in Close Combat if the need comes. It just can't do either task well .

As a monster killer, the Scourgerunner is hampered by its BS 4, a range of 24", and that as a chariot it can only move 9" forward a turn unless it charges. This means you are going to have to get close, as in within 12" of the monster, in order to hit it on a 4+. You might be able to get a hit off on a 3+ but considering how fragile the chariot is, you're going to want to keep moving it as much as possible. This is made more difficult when you wound the monster and drag it D6" closer to you.

There's the other problem with the chariot, it's just toughness 4 and a 5+ armor save, pretty squishy for a chariot. Also it doesn't have scythed wheels and only a strength of 4, so getting it into close combat isn't a great idea either. It's just going to have to roam around firing it's bolt and hoping it hits a mark.

Now as I said before, if we take it with a High Beast Lord it suddenly becomes far more useful. With BS 7 the Scourgerunner can hit a monster from 24" away on a 2+ without any problem, a sure way to kill any monster in the game. At least then it's useful, but it's still a very fragile mount for your expensive Beast Lord who can easily get picked off if you aren't careful.

In conclusion, if you want to try this guy take him with a High Beast Lord. At least then you will have some fun slaughtering enemy monsters. Otherwise, leave him at home.

Reaper Bolt Throwers
----------------------------

Rating: 5/5

Review: Now a Special Choice and they got a major point reduction, Reaper Bolt Throwers have become worth it to bring onto the field. Their still Str6, but with a range of 48" they will reliably hit units withing 24" on a 3+, making them excellent monster hunters. Remember, on the odds 2 Bolt Throwers are cheaper than a Scourgerunner and have better odds of taking down a monster.

They also have the ability where they can just fire off 6 shots a target with Str4 bolts with armour piercing. Not a bad way to eliminate annoying units of Fast Cavalry or to try and pick off some Knights.

A great unit to lay down support for our forces which is cheap enough that it's easy to fit in.

Cold One Knights
----------------------------

Rating: 4/5 (Previous Rating: 3/5)

Review: Our expensive knights return without their Hydra Banner and a point increase.

In some ways they have been buffed a bit. Cold Ones now have 2 attacks rather than 1. We also have more abilities that can lower enemy leadership, putting our fear to good use. Although Malus is a Lord Choice and is nerfed, we have plenty of other ways to mitigate the effects of stupidity like having a BSB with them or a Gleaming Pendant. And if we want, we can still give them extra attacks by casting Frenzy on them with a Cauldron of Blood. Heck we can give them super frenzy eventually so they'll be even more insane killers. Then there's Always Strikes First which means in subsequent turns of combat they'll get rerolls with their Str 4 hits.

However, the days where we can take 9 Cold One Knights with a BSB carrying a Hydra Banner and have them roam around the map unsupported are gone. If we want them to be truly effective, they are either going to have to be buffed by something like the Cauldron or they are going to have to support our infantry. And at 30pts a pop, it's hard to justify even a small unit of them when we now have better alternatives.

They are still useful, and they are our only non-hero choice with a 2+ Armor save, just they are no longer that great unless they are supported quite a bit.

Edit: It's been pointed out to me that since they are armored and do dish out a lot of damage, it's unfair to give them a 3/5 rating. While I don't think they are as good as something like Executioners, it's true that their mobility, armor, and damage potential make them a viable alternative to them.

Cold One Chariots
----------------------------

Rating: 4/5

Review: They've gone up a bit in points, but they make up for it by getting 2 more Cold One attacks. A solid support unit that can add wounds to a combat and is tough enough to stay in the fight without us worrying it'll die a horrible death.

The only problem with them is that they need a BSB near them or else stupidity is going to be a problem. Unlike Cold One Knights, they can't take the Gleaming Pendant or Malus to mitigate their stupidity. However, if you can keep them near a bsb they are a pretty handy unit.

Also, if you want to use Cold One Knights, it's not a bad idea to have one of these guys tag along with the unit. Provided the Cold One Knights have a BSB with them, the Chariot can nicely support their charge and give them a much better chance of breaking the enemy.


Black Guard of Naggarond
--------------------------------

Rating: 3.5/5

Review: Our squishy death machines return almost exactly the same as they were before. They've gone up a little bit in points, but they are still a nice buy for our army.

Little has changed with these guys from the previous edition- they still have two attacks, base ld 9, halberds, immune to psychology, initiative 6, eternal hatred, and they are stubborn. In fact, I should emphasis that: they are stubborn. Why is this important you might ask?

Well, with the point increase across the board, taking a large block of units to have steadfast is really painful now. Also, Lord/Hero points are getting tighter so justifying taking the Crown of Command has become harder. However, the Black Guard have stubborn built in and so long as they are within range of the BSB, they can hold almost anything.

Remember we no long have many, if any, units that can be left on their own on a flank without the general or bsb there to babysit them. War Hydras and Kharibyss both have leadership 6 and will run off the board if they are left on their own, Cold One Knights are more expensive and have stupidity issues, Dreadspears and Bleakswords have leadership 8 and are a bit too expensive to mass up to get steadfast, Witch Elves suffer from frenzy and can be led around the board. Nope, if we want something to hold something on it's own without much support, it's these guys.

The real question is if their stubbornness is able to justify their point cost and squishiness. In theory, if you stick them on a flank with a gleaming pendant, they should be able to cover that flank really well without any support from the rest of the army provided they don't get hit with a mortar blast. It's an expensive way to do it, but they are the guys we have that can do it.

One last note is that they we are able to take units larger than 20 Black Guard. It's nice we can now do it, but at their point cost it's difficult to justify.

Hag Garneth Executioners
--------------------------------

Rating: 5/5

Review: I swear, every army list I've read since the book has come out has included these guys, and it's because they are awesome.

Executioners now have Always Strike First, which cancels out the Always Strike Last of their Great Weapons. With initiative 5, it means they'll reliably strike first against most of our opponents. Also, with the Murderous Prowess rule we get to reroll any 1's to wound, a considerable buff for them considering at Strength 6 they'll only fail to wound on 1's. Now they can also carry a 50pt magic banner and they've lost the Khanite ability so our characters are free to join them without any problem. And best of all, they've stayed largely the same in point cost- 12 points.

Let that sink in for a moment. For 1 more point than a Witch Elf and 2 more points than a Warrior, you get Strength 6 killing blow hitting on initiative order. That's insane.

The only cloud in the sky with these guys is that they're fragile and they've lost their rerolls to hit. Considering that virtually everything in our army is this fragile and losing the rerolls is better than striking last, it's a fair price to pay for these guys.

Also, they do buff really well. A Sorceress with the Lore of Light can give an additional attack as well as make it so you need 6's to hit them, the Lore of Life can toughen them up nicely as well as provide them with regeneration, and the Lore of Metal can greatly increase their armor save as well as ensure they'll hit on 2's. Then there's the nice proliferation of frenzy in our army where we can use the Cauldron of Blood, Death Hags, and Tullaris to give them that precious extra attack.

In a Warhammer World filled with heavily armored Warriors of Chaos, +1 Armor Save Chocobos, and tough monsters the Executioners are a god send for our army. The bigger question for them is not so much if you should take them, it's a matter of how you should use them.

There are currently two schools of logic. One that I'm seeing in a lot of Army Lists is to put them in massive units of 30 or even 40 so they'll be horded, and then give them Frenzy to gain as many as 41 Str 6 attacks (51 with super frenzy). It's certainly tempting, but then the problem is that they are fragile enough that a mortar shot or a spell like Fiery Convocation can wipe the lot of them out in the blink of an eye. This means they'll need a lot of support to get into CC, and then it means your army is going to have to be built around them.

The other school is to put them into small units as small as 10 and take two or more of them. You won't nearly get as many attacks as a horded unit of Executioners, but it will be harder to eliminate all of them and it's less risky point wise. Then again, it will be harder to eliminate things like Monstrous Cavalry units with them.

Edit: Noted Calisson. Thx for the warning.

Edit 2: Before I said that Time Warp could give a unit with Great Weapons that had Always Strike First and give ASF again so it wouldn't be cancelled out with ASL. That was totally wrong, sorry.
Last edited by Shadoer on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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HERO
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by HERO »

@Hydra, they were I2 last edition as well.
@COKs, they were 27ppm before, 30 now.
@Executioners, Lore of Light is not going to give them ASF again.

Pretty generous scoring... the Hydra a 4? Pre or post use?
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Shadoer
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Shadoer »

HERO wrote:@Hydra, they were I2 last edition as well.
@COKs, they were 27ppm before, 30 now.
@Executioners, Lore of Light is not going to give them ASF again.

Pretty generous scoring... the Hydra a 4? Pre or post use?


Hydra: I thought they were I4 last edition for some reason. Still a liability for them.

COK: Yeah I should probably mention they went up in points.

Executioners: Won't it? The two rules cancel each other out, won't giving them the spell allow them to strike first? Even then, the +1 attack on them is worth it. Although if you are right I'll correct that.

And yeah I got some use out of the Hydra today in a fun "dark elf inauguration" thing I had. He got hit with a cannon on turn 1 the costed him 3 wounds, and then he got 2 of them back. On turn 2 he got nailed with the cannon again and lost 3 wounds, but then on my turn he got all 4 of them back but then he paniced and started heading to the end of the table. On turn 3 he rallied but got hit with the cannon again and lost 4 wounds but then got 2 of them back, then on turn 4 got into combat and started chewing up some tasty Empire Swordsmen. They caused him another 2 wounds, but then he and my unit of witch elves broke the unit. he then got back 1 wound. Turn 5 he got back another wound, and then on Turn 6 he did one last charge at the steam tank and helped dent it a bit. Then he got back 2 more wounds.

In total he took 12 wounds in the game but didn't die. The thing I learned is that getting 5 wounds in one shot is really difficult. A single cannon has a 1 in 3 shot of doing it assuming it hits and wounds, and regular combat infantry have trouble getting past T5 and a 4+ armor save. So long as you don't put him up against Halbreds or Great Weapon guys, he's fantastic. In fact, the biggest liability he has now is that he's LD6 so you need a general to babysit him.
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Ichiyo1821 »

Sorry but I personally disagree with a lot of the posters assessment.


Hydra - Have you tried the Hydra in actual games? I've had 2 games with the new book already and to be honest I am thinking of removing them. The initiative 2 and removal of Regen makes it hard for the Hydra to even strike on top of the hatred loss and the handlers on ld6. The Kbeast is actually better even if you don't get the bonus attack simply because it is I4 and i a whopping s7 monster.

Harpies - are still damn useful and I laugh at you giving it a 0/5. They are more expensive but they atleast deserve a 3/5.

Scourgerunner. DO you have the model for this? have you even tried to proxy and playtest it? Really now? :evil:

RBT - Meta dependent.

To the poster before you even rate the new book I suggest you dig deeper and actually play a game with them.
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Liquidedust »

Shadoer wrote:Executioners: Won't it? The two rules cancel each other out, won't giving them the spell allow them to strike first? Even then, the +1 attack on them is worth it. Although if you are right I'll correct that.




Rulebook errata wrote:Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have.
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph.


Can only ever have ASF from a single source, any additional sources are just disregarded so ASF and ASL still cancel eachother out.

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Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
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vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Shadoer »

Ichiyo1821 wrote: Sorry but I personally disagree with a lot of the posters assessment.


Yeah no problem.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:Hydra - Have you tried the Hydra in actual games? I've had 2 games with the new book already and to be honest I am thinking of removing them. The initiative 2 and removal of Regen makes it hard for the Hydra to even strike on top of the hatred loss and the handlers on ld6. The Kbeast is actually better even if you don't get the bonus attack simply because it is I4 and i a whopping s7 monster.


Actually I have tried the hydra and he's not that bad. Again, he can't go toe to toe with something like Swordmasters of Hoeth but he's still pretty survivable against artillery. You just can't use him to directly assault an enemy unit, you need to support him.

As for the Krib versus the Hydra, the problem with the Krib is he is relying exclusively on his toughness and armor to keep him alive. A couple of solid artillery hits will take him out or wound him enough that you'll be loath to send him into close combat. You are right that the Krib's initative is a huge selling point and he'll get in his 5, plus possibly D6 extra attacks, but it doesn't change the point that he's less survivable than the hydra. He also, on average, gets less attacks than a hydra and has no access to a breath weapon.

This isn't to say the Krib sucks, it's awesome. Str 7, I 4, and WS5 make it a devestating beast if it can get into close combat. Just you shouldn't discount the Hydra so quickly.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Harpies - are still damn useful and I laugh at you giving it a 0/5. They are more expensive but they atleast deserve a 3/5.


For what though?

Warmachine hunting is better done by Dark Riders, Warlocks, and Shades. As a sacrificial unit, they're skirmishers so they aren't great at redirecting charges and now that you need to spend at least 75pts to take a basic unit it doesn't make sense. Also, after a couple of casualties odds are they'll run off the board with a leadership of 6.

If you know how they can be used, I'd be happy to hear it. I've been wrong about a few things in this thread and if there's a reason I should not let my harpies collect dust I really would like to know it.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Scourgerunner. DO you have the model for this? have you even tried to proxy and playtest it? Really now? :evil:


No but I actualy proxied it in two games today, on with a High Beastmaster and one without it. No sorry, without the additional ballistic skill it has trouble hitting anything or doing consistent damage before those monsters get into close combat. And even with the Beastmaster, it's pretty damn fragile and you have to be careful or else massed shooting will take it down.

Like in one game I actually managed to take down an imperial griffen with it, and I was extatic till it got blown to bits and my High Beastmaster was also my general. The other game it managed to get one whole wound on a Steamtank before getting blasted to pieces.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:RBT - Meta dependent.


Could you elaborate?

Ichiyo1821 wrote:
To the poster before you even rate the new book I suggest you dig deeper and actually play a game with them.


Ok, well could you maybe provide us with your playtesting experiences? Like if you have different results I really would like them in this thread.
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Liquidedust »

Shadoer wrote:Actually I have tried the hydra and he's not that bad. Again, he can't go toe to toe with something like Swordmasters of Hoeth but he's still pretty survivable against artillery. You just can't use him to directly assault an enemy unit, you need to support him.


The problem with the Hydra really is that it relies on its wound to do pretty much anything. Wounding the Hydra doesn't just remove sounds wounds from it, it also reduces its attacks. And depending on what it fights it will have lost 1-4 wounds before it can even attack.

And every bit of reduction in its offensive abilities really does make it a hard to validate it over something else, I mean those 160~200pts are another 12~15 bodies elsewhere in an infantry unit; another 5~6 Cold One Knights; another 1-2 units of Dark Riders or a unit of Doomfire Warlocks.

The problem isn't that you can shoehorn in the Hydra into a list, the problem is those points are a lot better spent elsewhere. Sure you could maybe use lore of life and give it regeneration so its has some staying power and allow it to be used to its full potential. But as it is right now it is a big large target that pretty much screams "free victory points".

A light council will rape it, skink skirmishers with poisoned blowpipies will make short work of it, a lot of magic can cripple it beyond belief or just erase it from the board :/, S6 and a semi-decent WS and you can pretty much remove it from the board as well.

I love Hydras, but competitive-wise they really do not seem worth to consider in this edition.

They have nice potential damage output, but cannot really shine since so much of its ability is tied to its wounds that they cannot regain/prevent losing during a turn short of tossing regeneration on it via Lore of Life.

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Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
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vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Omnichron »

S7 and I4 is why the Kharibdyss is the main reasons I like it better than the Hydra. Having a steady number of attacks means that you can count on it when it's your turn to strike, and with the life lore you can heal it up anyways.

That being said, the hydra can be better with a fiery roar and whenever it isn't killed before it can regain wounds. I wish the new regen was in the end of the opponents turn as well though... if you get charged and survive the first round you are probably dead the second. Also, I don't feel that I need S5 monster in my army as I can get S6 and S7 that is quite good instead.
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Shadoer »

Rare
============

Doomfire Warlocks
------------------------

Rating: 5/5

Review: Right now, these guys are the best Fast Cavalry in the game. Period.

They are Str 4 base, each guy has 2 attacks, Movement 9, a 4+ Ward Save, Poison Attacks, Always Stike First, and they are a unit that acts as a Lvl 2 wizard know Doombolt and Soulblight. They don't miscast, they just take D3 wounds which they can attempt their ward save against. And for every rank of them you have, they get +1 to casting spells. All of this for just 5 more points than a Dark Rider.

There are a couple of small minor problems with them though. Their Ward Save doesn't work against models with the Mark of Slannesh, not a big deal since Slannesh themed armies aren't exactly popular and their Weapon Skill on them is 4 so they will be rolling on 4+ to hit more often than many of our other elite units. Then there's the small problem they are a Rare choice, and while they are cheap enough to fit in they fill roughly the same role as Dark Riders and those guys will help fill out our mandatory Core. However these are all minor problems which are easy to mitigate.

Currently there's a wealth of possibilities being thrown around on what we can do with these guys. Taking out enemy Warmachines is always a safe bet as well as hitting enemy gun lines. Then there's the idea that we can use them as escorts for our Sorceresses. With a 4+ Ward Save, they should be able to survive a miscast while getting the Sorceress (as well as themselves) close to the enemy to reign havoc. Then there's the thought that a unit of 10 or so of them can even fill the roll of our Cold One Knights and charge into the ranks of the enemy. With a 4+ Ward, 2 Attacks each at Str 4, and the option of casting Soul Blight, they can reliably take out annoying enemy units. And with a movement of 9, they can reliably hit the enemy's flanks or rears without much problem. Did I mention they buff very well too.

Then there's their spell casting abilities. Since they only suffer D3 wounds from a miscast, which they can use their ward save against, they can reliably attempt to cast Doombolt and Soulblight on a large number of dice. This is less good when you consider it's eating up dice your Sorceress can cast, but considering they can get into close range to the enemy in 1 and most of our spells have a range of 18" or less, it's a round of spell casting we might not normally have. Even then, both Doombolt and Soulblight are excellent spells worth throwing multiple dice at and then we don't have to risk a miscast from our sorceress. Remember Doombolt can throw 4D6 Str 5 attacks in its big version, but need 24+ to cast. Basically you need to throw 6 dice to get it off, something the Warlocks can safely do but a Sorceress can't.

Finally it's worth noting that since they don't generate these spells randomly, you can get Doombolt and Souldblight with every Warlock unit. This opens up the possibility of things like moving your Warlocks into position and getting multiple of enemy units with Soulblight, -1 Str and -1T, putting them at a serious disadvantage against our army.

Edit: It has been pointed out that saying they are a viable alternative to Cold One Knights is a bit wishful thinking and that they are competting with the Sorceress for precious power dice. Also it should be noted that any spell they cast can be dispelled while the enemy will have trouble stopping crossbow shots. I still think they're brilliant, but it's worth noting this.

Bloodwrack Medusa
---------------------------

Rating: 1/5

Review: Well she's sort of cool. Wish she was called a Gorgon, but I guess GW thinks we don't know Greek Mythology well enough to know that Gorgons are a species and Medusa was a member of that species. Also I wish she just straight up turned units to stone instead of causing them some kind of weird bleeding attack thing. Anyways though,

Her main feature is that she has a range attack that can fire 4 shots of her "stare". It hits with Str4, ignores armor, has killing blow, and you get to replace the targets toughness with it's initiative. In theory this would make her an excellent monster killer, but she is stuck with a range of 12" and a Ballistic Skill of 5. She has 7 movement so getting in close isn't exactly a problem and on average she can hit on 4+ and 5+'s. Not bad. Unfortunately she has Leadership 2 and Frenzy.

So instead of a lone wolf prowling the battlefield and killing off monsters at will, you have a cowardly psycho that will charge the closest enemy to her unless your General is within Inspiring Presence Range. Awesome. This might not be a problem if she was good in Close Combat, but she isn't.

This girl only has 3 attacks, 4 if you count Frenzy at Str 4. No armor, just a toughness of 4. She does get an initative attack where all enemy models in base contact have to take an initiative test or suffer a Str4 hit, killing blow, no armor saves allowed. Unfortunately this attack will now go against the target's toughness instead of initiative, so suddenly she isn't killing enemy monsters anymore.

Overall she's just not worth the hassle to babysit her with your general just to have something to kill enemy monsters. It would have been nice, but her leadership of 2 and frenzy make her too much of a loose cannon to be viable.

Bloodwrack Shrine
---------------------------

Rating: 3/5

Review: While the Medusa is pretty useless without her shrine, with it she starts to shine. Now she is a chariot that has Scythed Wheels and can march just like the Cauldron of Blood. In addition to all of her other abilities you also get a nice leadership aura that makes enemies within 6" suffer -1 to their leadership while boosting yours by +1. You also get Terror and a point of magic resistance in the deal.

It's still not all that great, and without the Ward Save that the Cauldron of Blood provides it's juicy target for enemy artillery. However the Shrine makes the Medusa useful and the leadership ability combos nicely with all of our other new anti-leadership abilities.

If you have the right combo in mind, the Bloodwrack Shrine can be pretty awesome. Just make sure you have those combos in mind before grabbing it.

Sisters of Slaughter
---------------------------

Rating: 5/5

Review: So the Wyches from 40k have entered the world of Fantasy. Hurrah, all we need to do is start feeding the souls of our slaves to Slannesh and we can complete our transformation to being the Dark Eldar :)

Anyways the Sisters of Slaughter are a new unit that has three major selling points. First is that so long there is one enemy in close combat with a higher Weapon Skill or Strength than the Sisters, the Sisters get +1 to both hit and wound. So if they get into close combat with Saurus Warriors or almost any unit with a Character, they'll be reliably hitting on 2+'s and wounding on a minimum of 5+. Not to shabby.

Next is that the Sisters get a 4+ Ward save in close combat, a life saver that can help them take on some of the toughest foes in the game and have a shot at holding their own. The only draw back is like their Wych cousins in 40k, they don't get it against range attacks or spells. So unless you get them into Close Combat fast, basic shooting and spells can slaughter your defenseless and expensive elves with ease.

Last is the interesting ability, possibly their best ability, that one unit in base contact loses all of their rank bonuses. They still get steadfast, but otherwise they lose all of their rank bonuses. So if you have 3 ranks of sisters before close combat, you'll have a combat resolution of 3+ to start. Throw a Warbanner and the Battlestanard with them and it becomes a 5+. As has been suggested by Scyloc, if you put them with the Bloodwrack Shrine, they'll also help break the enemy by taking away -1 leadership.

All of these abilities together mean that while they don't have any high strength attacks, they can reliably win combat and break enemy units so long as they get into close combat. It's a common problem in our army, but these girls are so expensive that their deaths will mean a lot more than the end of a unit of Witch Elves. They have to stay alive.

One last note on these girls is that they are the bane of the Skaven. The ratmen rely on their rank bonuses in order to up their leadership. Once the sisters get into close combat with them, the leadership of their units drop to 7 even if they are in range of their general. If the general isn't there or you get Shroud off, it falls even further. This means so long as you can get the Sisters into Close Combat with Skaven blocks, they'll start crumbling fast. All those 100 man blocks of Slaves we know and love can easily be taken down by the Sisters so long as they get into close combat with them, making them a Skaven player’s worst nightmare.

Other armies that have trouble with them in theory would be the Undead and Daemons. Both armies lack shooting and once the Sisters get into close combat, their bonus combat resolution will start causing them to crumble or go unstable much faster than other units can. It's not as bad as with Skaven, but it's worth noting.

In short, they are a great unit and I'm certain they'll get more popular as we use them more and more.

Kharibdyss
------------------

Rating: 4/5

Review: The much talked about KRib monster and potential replacement for the War Hydra.

So the KRib is a deathmachine with Str 7 and 5 Attacks. It also gets an additional D6 attacks provided all of it's previous attacks hit. It also has Poison Attacks which give it an additional edge in Monster vs Monster fights. Overall its pretty handy for killing those heavily armored Chaos Warriors or hurting Monsterous Cavalry.

However it's big selling point in my mind is that it has an ability that causes the enemy to have to reroll successful terror leadership tests. So any enemy units that are away from their General and BSB can be nicely scared off by our Krib without a fight, something made better if combined with our wonderful Shroud spell. It doesn't work against anything immune to psychology or that has fear, but there should still be plenty of targets in the game that shoudl be easy to kill.

So if it's so awesome, why did I only give it 4/5? Well as I learned in my test game, the Krib is pretty easy to kill.

Unlike a lot of monsters in the game, it has pretty weak defenses. It only has Toughness 5, a 4+ Armor Save, 5 wounds, and no regen. A couple of solid artillery hits and your KRib will be gone before it can even hurt anything. That and in close combat, unless you choose your battles carefully, the enemy should get a few wounds through every time and slowly whittle away it him.

Then there's the problem that it has Leadership 6, so it's susceptible to panic and can easily break in Close Combat if it loses. So you will want to make sure it's in matchups it will reliably win or make sure your general is near him at all times.

It does have Imitative 4, so it won't be taken down easily by Pits of Shade or Purple Son, so that's some small comfort. This should mean it will strike before its enemies in close combat, guaranteeing some damage.

With careful planning and possibly a Sorceress of Life, the Krib is pretty awesome. However it requires that extra planning and preparation or else it are just free points to the enemy. It's why I put it on an equal playing field as the Hydra, despite popular opinion, because the Hydra can get back its wounds and is now a Special Choice. I will admit though it comes down to play style and how you are building your army.

Still for all my criticism, it's an awesome monster and a welcome addition to our army.
Last edited by Shadoer on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Shadoer »

Liquidedust wrote:
Shadoer wrote:Actually I have tried the hydra and he's not that bad. Again, he can't go toe to toe with something like Swordmasters of Hoeth but he's still pretty survivable against artillery. You just can't use him to directly assault an enemy unit, you need to support him.


The problem with the Hydra really is that it relies on its wound to do pretty much anything. Wounding the Hydra doesn't just remove sounds wounds from it, it also reduces its attacks. And depending on what it fights it will have lost 1-4 wounds before it can even attack.

And every bit of reduction in its offensive abilities really does make it a hard to validate it over something else, I mean those 160~200pts are another 12~15 bodies elsewhere in an infantry unit; another 5~6 Cold One Knights; another 1-2 units of Dark Riders or a unit of Doomfire Warlocks.

The problem isn't that you can shoehorn in the Hydra into a list, the problem is those points are a lot better spent elsewhere. Sure you could maybe use lore of life and give it regeneration so its has some staying power and allow it to be used to its full potential. But as it is right now it is a big large target that pretty much screams "free victory points".

A light council will rape it, skink skirmishers with poisoned blowpipies will make short work of it, a lot of magic can cripple it beyond belief or just erase it from the board :/, S6 and a semi-decent WS and you can pretty much remove it from the board as well.

I love Hydras, but competitive-wise they really do not seem worth to consider in this edition.

They have nice potential damage output, but cannot really shine since so much of its ability is tied to its wounds that they cannot regain/prevent losing during a turn short of tossing regeneration on it via Lore of Life.


Fair enough, but it's still less of a liability than the KRib. The KRib is just as squishy and can't get it's wounds back on it's own. It also suffers from being "free victory points" unless we can shut down enemy artillery or back it up with Life.

I guess I could rate both monsters lower though.
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Ichiyo1821 »

I have already posted my own observations on my thread. Harpies just wen up in points but the fly ability will never be replicated even by fast cav. I am claiming that Harpies are still the beast at what they do, but I also don't understand how it can become a 5/5 unit to a 0/5 just because it went up by what 4 points a model?

Hydras can still be used again for several builds but to be honest for a pure competitive build I am leaning away from it. You claim that they would be more survivable? Maybe but then it lost its purpose. If it got shot by arti and does live, without regen, hatred and the handlers there for extra attacks and leadership, its not like you would charge the Hydra into combat by then. Not only is it easier to kill, it also ends up with less attacks. I love my Hydras as a matter of fact I have 4 of them but for what it's worth I might shelf them for the time being.

Scourgerunners may not be as good as people want it to be but I can think of ways to use them. Its a unit that you have to build around on or atleast have support for.
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New AB
W/D/L
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Liquidedust »

Ichiyo1821 wrote:I have already posted my own observations on my thread. Harpies just wen up in points but the fly ability will never be replicated even by fast cav. I am claiming that Harpies are still the beast at what they do, but I also don't understand how it can become a 5/5 unit to a 0/5 just because it went up by what 4 points a model?


They also now can cause panic in your own models, which really is a big no-no. They were used a lot as cheap screeners and redirectors, which they now are a fair liability to use them as (especially when other units aren't that much more expensive its only 1pt more per model for Dark Riders and Shades for example). And with screening and redirecting you want a cheap unit that is expendable that you don't have to worry about.

Their biggest advantage of being 55pt screeners that could screen an entire horde unit if you so wish is gone, even if you disregard their points increase (which is almost 50% mind you) they are still a special choice these days (and special is crammed as is with good units) and if your screen flees it can potentially cause a panic cascade through your army.

This leaves them with the job of hunting warmarchines, which honestly Dark Riders and Shades do better with their now reduced points cost and ability to get higher up into the battlefield than the harpies can turn 1! And shades and Dark Riders even fill multiple roles while Harpies only fill one more or less these days.

In short, points cost increase, moved to special and now can cause panic in Dark Elves really does make them virtually unwanted in most lists.

Going from an expendable 55pt screen that cannot cause panic to a 75pt screen that -can- cause panic really is a very big difference.

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Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
vs. Tomb Kings: 0/1/0
vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
vs. Wood Elves: 2/1/0
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Ichiyo1821 »

Enough to warrant 0/5?
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New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0

9th Age
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Character kill count -182

"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Calisson »

Shadoer, I feel that yo have a tendency to rate units compared to the previous book (see harpies, COK).
Please consider their actual usefulness, regardless of any alleged nerf/boost.


Harpies 0/5 is definitively too harsh. +1 to Ichiyo's comment. Acknowledge Liquidedust's comment.
They are still the most maneuvreable chaff unit, and the least expensive at 75pts.
They are the best at positioning exactly where the opponent hates them.
They are the best as cheap sacrificial unit.
They are the best scavengers, able to charge small fleeing remnants of defeated foes before they rally and deny VPs.
Be careful to position them at more than 6" from your own troops.
Just don't ask them to kill anything.
Suggest 1 or 2/5.

Shades: Buff? What buff?
One change is FC instead of champ only, but command group making 26 to 29pts the T3-no-amour model, that's expensive.
ASF is the only great change, making GW much, much better.
Light armour, that they had already, is pretty useless unless you take Metal Lore.

Hydra might be a little overrated at 4/5, if first batreps are an indication. +1 to Ichiyo's comment.

COK might be underrated at 3/5. Mobile, heavily armoured, high S, they may be a realistic alternative to execs.

COC already had 3+.

Warlocks. "they are Lvl 2 Wizards" => no. Rather "the unit is a Lvl2 wizard".
Note that Doombolt is cast normally, no Hekarti's blessing.
A downgrade also, when DR can RXB at will, warlocks do compete for always-scarce PD. And spells can be dispelled, contrary to bolts.
6+4++ is great, but still, that's a 25pts T3 model. Replacing COK? That statement seems exagerated.
Overall, I feel that 5/5 might be a little too much.

Medusa: the stare's range is further hampered by the penalty for long range...
Shrine: same.

Sisters. 5/5? they are still S3, and low S attacks is not what we miss the most.
I would expect 4/5 at best (based on books, not battles).

Kharibdyss might be a little bit on the optimistic, too.

@ Ichiyo1821
Ichiyo1821 wrote:To the poster before you even rate the new book I suggest you dig deeper and actually play a game with them.
Disagree, one may rate uniits based on mathammer, just provided it is clear that the theoryhammer was not proven on the battlefield (that's what I am doing all the time).
I am sure that many less experienced DE generals will apreciate greatly Shadoer's efforts.
A gentler suggestion would be to take more into account actual batreps.
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Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Liquidedust »

Ichiyo1821 wrote:Enough to warrant 0/5?


Harpies aren't useless, so a 0/5 is overly harsh they are somewhere around 1~2/5 depending on list synergy still. Though they aren't the breadwinners they used to be and compete for points now when a lot of our other stuff is more expensive as well.

You have to tighten the belt somewhere with less available points to spend.

My Hobby Thread

Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
vs. Tomb Kings: 0/1/0
vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
vs. Wood Elves: 2/1/0
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Re: Army Review with Ratings

Post by Calisson »

You might like to read HERO's own rating here.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
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