botwd vs black horror

[Melle]

an interesting thing came up on a swedish forum.

does the botwd work against black horror?

botwd gives 2+ ward against wounds caused by magic

black horror dont cause wounds, it removes models that fail a str test. ward saves may be attempted.

but since botwd state a wound must be caused. ...


your thoughts on this?

[Dalamar]

My thoughts are that people are looking too much into specific words used in rules descriptions especially considering GWs record with messed up wording (just look at our new CoB blessing)

I will allow my HE opponents to use BotWD against Black Horror.
Not like any of them are using that banner
Or that I'd cast black horror at that unit in the first place.

[Gerner]

I would say no.
The same with purple sun, Dwellers Below and etc..

[Trax]

No, absolutely not for me. Wounds and removing as casualties are very specific and different mechanics, so there's no reason to allow a Ward Save that only works against wounds to be used against instant deaths. BH is already inferior in this regard in comparison to other instant death spells since it grants Ward Saves at all (for no reason besides maybe a 9th edition outlook), so even less of a reason to allow a ward. And HE players screaming "it's explicitly against BotWD!!" - yeah, no, all insta-gib-spells are, BH is specific in no way, they should be grateful that the rest of their army (the other half of the points in the 3++ PG block) is almost immune to the spell, so what.

[strategem]

I say no they can't

[Phierlihy]

I'll offer a counter-argument and say that the reason models don't get a 'ward save' versus the test-or-die spells is because they don't cause wounds (which is a requirement for all ward saves). And Magic Resistance/regular ward saves are all mashed together into what we define as a ward save. Black Horror carves out a specific exception to allow ward saves so, as much as I dislike the very concept of that banner, I think they should get it. If the spell didn't have the exception, models effected would get no ward save at all (just like regular test-or-die spells) but in this case, the author went out of his way to ensure it does happen. Just my humble opinion.

[Trax]

The author went out of his way to grant models or units with a regular ward save a saving throw. This is already an exception, it's not like the wording is wasted or something. And on the other hand the wording on BotWD is just as specific. It doesn't grant a 2++ against magic/magic attacks, it grants a 2++ against wounds caused by magic attacks, spells etc. BH causes no wounds, hence no ward save.

[Dalamar]

Other instant kill spells specifically say they don't allow ward saves (even though ward saves can only be taken against wounds). Black Horror goes out of its way and specifically spells out that a single ward save can be taken.

Hell, even BRB states that instant kills don't allow any saves unless otherwise specified, so the fact that Dwellers Below or Pit of Shades restates that no ward saves can be taken is moot.

Black Horror allows ward saves, that's all.

[Trax]

Yeah, but the Banner doesn't allow simple ward saves. The description goes out of its way and limits the protection to magic wounds. Why is that? Why doesn't it say "All models in a unit that carries the BotWD have 2+ ward save against spells, magic weapons ad magical attacks.", why the extra mile?

I mean, I'm in the same boat as you seem to be, our local HE doesn't use the Banner either (and I'm unlikely to ever take BH since I hate vortices), but I just don't see why the extra wording on BH matters while that of the BotWD does not.

The BRB passage you're citing even mentions that some effects don't cause wounds - that's exactly the category where BH falls in and just as well the exact category where BotWD just doesn't work at all.

[HERO]

@Dalamar, not sure if it's as simple as that.

This isn't an BRB vs. AB discussion, it's about AB vs. AB.
The wording for Banner of the World Dragon specifically says you get a ward saves from "wounds caused by magical...etc".
Black Horror doesn't generate any wounds, so by RAW, you can't use Banner of the World Dragon to take saves.
But now, we see that Black Horror also says that you still get your ward save. So which is it Mr. Ward? Only he can answer that.

[Trax]

Well, we all know this will about *never* be specified by GW themselves...

[Sulla]

@Dalamar, not sure if it's as simple as that.

This isn't an BRB vs. AB discussion, it's about AB vs. AB.
The wording for Banner of the World Dragon specifically says you get a ward saves from "wounds caused by magical...etc".
Black Horror doesn't generate any wounds, so by RAW, you can't use Banner of the World Dragon to take saves.
But now, we see that Black Horror also says that you still get your ward save. So which is it Mr. Ward? Only he can answer that.

The BRB also describes ward saves as preventing wounds (pg44 "Daemons, for example, have a ward save of 5+, meaning a score of 5 or more is required to prevent a wound.") So, if neither basic ward saves or the Banner of the World Dragon can save against Black Horror, just what ward saves do?

Put me in the camp of allowing BotWD and basic ward saves against it.

[Gwii2510]

I will kill those puny HE in all regards anyway, im in the "allows ward saves boat"

[Setomidor]

I can see that there are arguments for both, but since it specifically states that ward saves are allowed the "not causing wounds"-part seems like a technicality so I'd allow Ward saves as well.

[Shearov]

I'd say with the wording, no ward saves should be allowed, as the models are removed from play, not wounded and removed.

If I played against HE's I'd probably let them have a saving throw if they really wanted one, it is slightly ambigous so no point causing a fuss over it.

It's great though, a sneaky way to kill our lesser cousins.

[Cougar_roger]

I think this is another middle finger to the high elf book.

Cauldron grants a 5+ to wich elves, if you hit them with black horror, they get the ward because the blessing doesn't specify when you can use it.

BoTWD on the other hand, does specify when the effect kicks in, when wounds are caused by magic. Since no wounds occur with black horror since it's a failed strength test, it exempts the banner.

Just so people are clear, Ward didn't write the rules. My guess is the people who did also wrote the ones for the high elves, and worded black horror specifically to exempt the BoTWD ward save.

[Trax]

Oh please, stop with the "another middle finger" crap

Other instant death spells (which are in the game way longer than the BotWD) don't allow ward saves neither. Were they foreshadowed middle-fingers, too?

Nice comparison with the Cauldrons highly high 5+ ward save, too, they are in such an advantageous defensive position compared to HE, where there is no possibility to come even close to a 5++. Oh wait...

There may even come the day when a FAQ clears this question one way or another, but if there's one thing for certain: It wasn't worded as "another middle finger" <.<...

[Phierlihy]

I think this is another middle finger to the high elf book.

Cauldron grants a 5+ to wich elves, if you hit them with black horror, they get the ward because the blessing doesn't specify when you can use it.

BoTWD on the other hand, does specify when the effect kicks in, when wounds are caused by magic. Since no wounds occur with black horror since it's a failed strength test, it exempts the banner.

Just so people are clear, Ward didn't write the rules. My guess is the people who did also wrote the ones for the high elves, and worded black horror specifically to exempt the BoTWD ward save.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The BRB specifies when a ward save can get used.

All ward saves are the same (go look at the text in the BRB). Nobody gets ward saves versus test-or-die spells. So please explain to me, using small words because apparently I'm dumb, how exactly the Banner of the World Dragon is somehow less valid than a typical ward save in this situation.

[Liquidedust]

I think this is another middle finger to the high elf book.

Cauldron grants a 5+ to wich elves, if you hit them with black horror, they get the ward because the blessing doesn't specify when you can use it.

BoTWD on the other hand, does specify when the effect kicks in, when wounds are caused by magic. Since no wounds occur with black horror since it's a failed strength test, it exempts the banner.

Just so people are clear, Ward didn't write the rules. My guess is the people who did also wrote the ones for the high elves, and worded black horror specifically to exempt the BoTWD ward save.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The BRB specifies when a ward save can get used.

All ward saves are the same (go look at the text in the BRB). Nobody gets ward saves versus test-or-die spells. So please explain to me, using small words because apparently I'm dumb, how exactly the Banner of the World Dragon is somehow less valid than a typical ward save in this situation.

As faras I an aware BotWD is the only item that specifically and explicitly limits the items' ward effectiveness against only wounds in the item description.

[Phierlihy]

How SPECIFICALLY is the verbage in the Banner of the World Dragon different from the verbage of a regular ward save? What phrase in particular makes the banner ineligible?

I'm more than happy to not give it to them but looking at the rules, I genuinely think it deserves it.

[Trax]

Hardly if at all. I've got only the German rulebook in front of me, so I'll reserve my final judgement, but now I'm pretty sure that I have to revoke my previous statement regarding this issue:

Ward saves in general are described to save models from sustained *wounds* much like the HE BotWD (like I said, I don't have the English BRB, but if the translation is true to the original, then there will be a ward save against BH).

[Cougar_roger]

How SPECIFICALLY is the verbage in the Banner of the World Dragon different from the verbage of a regular ward save? What phrase in particular makes the banner ineligible?

I'm more than happy to not give it to them but looking at the rules, I genuinely think it deserves it.

From the book: Banner of the world dragon. "all models in a unit that carries the BoTWD have a 2+ ward save against all wounds caused by spells, magic weapons and magical attacks."

From the dark elf book: Cauldron of Blood: Bloodshield of Khaine: "the Cauldron of blood has a 4+ ward save. WE, hags, and Death Hags in the same unit or mounted on it have a 5+ ward save, and all other models in the same unit have a 6+ ward save.

I believe the BoTWD verbiage was written to specifically exempt insta-kill spells, since they are generally a test and do not cause wounds. In the above examples, one lays out a very specific criteria for when the ward save applies, the other does not. With respect to black horror, the Cauldron would get it's ward save because it is a non-specific ward save. BoTWD on the other hand, is not triggered by the effects of the spell, just like pit, dwellers, etc...

Any ward save a character had, like Talisman of Endurance, or Preservation would qualify because their description is non-specific. Demons 5+ ward is non specific.

The very first line of "intsant kills" on p. 44 sums it all up. "Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as casualties (after failing a Ld or T test, for example). According to this, the banner will never kick in on any failed special attack, which is exactly what black horror is.

[Sulla]

From the book: Banner of the world dragon. "all models in a unit that carries the BoTWD have a 2+ ward save against all wounds caused by spells, magic weapons and magical attacks."

From the dark elf book: Cauldron of Blood: Bloodshield of Khaine: "the Cauldron of blood has a 4+ ward save. WE, hags, and Death Hags in the same unit or mounted on it have a 5+ ward save, and all other models in the same unit have a 6+ ward save.

.

...and what does a ward save do? To find that out, we have to look into the BRB and that tells us that ward saves are used to "prevent a wound". So normal ward saves wouldn't protect against black horror either... which brings us about circle and we have to ask exactly which ward saves can be used against the black horror (which expressly permits the use of ward saves). The answer has to be either all or none... and none makes no sense.

[Cougar_roger]

I believe I addressed that referencing the instant kill text. Black horror qualifies as a special attack, but allows ward saves, but because the text in the BoTWD specify wounds, which special attacks do not cause, it can't be used.

[Sulla]

I believe I addressed that referencing the instant kill text. Black horror qualifies as a special attack, but allows ward saves, but because the text in the BoTWD specify wounds, which special attacks do not cause, it can't be used.

The instant kills text box is irrelevant. The basic ward save rules tell us how to use them, and they only reference saving wounds, just like the BotWD does.