biggest nerf -- biggest buff -- opinions

[marcopollo]

Got the book on the weekend and spent a few hours going over it. And, I thought I would ask the community what they thought were the biggest nerf and buff that our unit received?

For me:

Biggest buff: Executioners (hand down) -- always strikes first, relatively cheap, 1 pt more than a RxB.

Biggest nerf: Spearmen -- must take shields, 50% points increase. No noticeable statistical increase.

what about the rest of you.

[HERO]

I wrote a new review here:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/10/dark ... eview.html

I honestly don't think you can compare the 7th Ed. book to now. The entire army has basically been revamped, from base design mechanics, to loss and gain of magic items, to wider array of magic lores, balance tweaking of specific units, and gaining new units as well. It's a brand new game for Dark Elves, and one I enjoy much more.

[Dalamar]

Biggest buff: dark riders. 4+ on fast cav and cheaper than before is incredible.

Biggest nerf: harpies. From a unit in every list to a unit in no list.

[MangoPunch]

Biggest Buff: Warlocks, went from didn't exist to one of the best units in the game IMHUO (In My Humble Unexperienced Opinion).

[Gidean]

Biggest Buff: Core Witch Elves with ASF!

Biggest Nerf: Magic. Not being able to throw 7+ dice at a spell. The downgrade in Sacrificial Dagger. Power of Darkness. Even with access to all lores, Death, Shadow, Old Dark and Metal was plenty enough.

[OldCrow]

For me the biggest buff comes in the form of Dark Riders. Cheaper, 4+ save, not losing fast cav? Yes please! I was already running 3 or more units but now they're just better.

Biggest Nerf - Understandable - the nerf to the Sac Dagger. I loved that thing in the previous book but I get the toning it down because it was pretty clearly over the top.

[Calisson]

Biggest buff: We got now an admiral! Go Navy!

Biggest nerf: the admiral's stats... Boo. Wasn't GW able to find any decent sailor in England?

Everything else, well, concur with HERO, the army book has been overhauled, previous one was about some synergies, new one is about totally different synergies.

[marcopollo]

Well I suppose what I meant when I started the post was what units/models from the old book get the biggest nerf and buff. So warlocks etc don't really count cause they didn't exist in the last book. Similarly, magic items were not included per se, but are factored in things like the cost of spearmen etc.

But, I agree that was not clear in my OP.

[Calisson]

Well, only taking previous units (and not special characters), that may be:
Buffed:
- Sorc get 8 lores and cheaper, alas, lost nice toys and 12-dicing
- Manti gets 4+
- DR got shield with fast cav
- WE become core
- COK get one more attack and ASF
- GW shades get ASF
- Execs get ASF
- RBT get much cheaper and special
And the winner is...
IMO greatest buff is RBT: went from never ever to mandatory maxed out. Execs close second.

Nerfed:
- COB lost buffing at 24" with choice of 3 effects
- sass lost star/manbane combo
- spears got more expensive, especially their command group
- harpies get more expensive and cause now panic
- hydra lost beastmasters and regen
And the loser is...
IMO, harpies, which went from "there's nothing such as too many harpies" to "take anything else, you'll fare better". Spears are close second.
Comparatively, COB and hydra are no longer must-haves but are not considered yet a liability.

[Clockwork]

Biggest buff: Dark Riders. Cheaper, better, amazing models.
Close runners up: Executioners (except for those skull helmets...), Shades (Great Weapons!), RBTs, Cold One Knights, non-Mindrazor Corsairs (actually decent as an alternative to Spearmen).

Biggest nerfs: Cauldron of Blood. Lost its bubble effects, more expensive, easier to kill, basically no longer has a place in my list.
Close runners up: Harpies, Blackguard (love the models, love the fluff - can't really find a place for them in my lists that something else doesn't do better).

Spearmen I'd argue with. Yes they went up by 2 points, but they also gained ASF and Murdress Prowess. Those people using them as SacDagger fodder would consider that a nerf; speaking as someone who actually used as they were intended, I'd consider that a huge buff and 2 points well worth paying.

I'd actually argue what the point in Swordsmen are, when for 4 points more you can get the same guy with a Repeater Crossbow; or for two points more another guy with a 4+ armour save and two attacks...

[Askador]

Biggest buff: We got now an admiral! Go Navy!

Biggest nerf: the admiral's stats... Boo. Wasn't GW able to find any decent sailor in England?

Everything else, well, concur with HERO, the army book has been overhauled, previous one was about some synergies, new one is about totally different synergies.

This guy cant even land on a Sandy Beach!
"Admiral look there is an Unprotected Village on the beach over there!"
"Sail on man i cant go on Land here.. my Sword Leg will sink in the sand and im stuck! Sail to the Rocky beaches in the south Idiot!"

[necrotix]

Well, you could say we're all shocked that GW nerfed Harpies and also didn't make any new models for them.......

[Amarel]

Spearmen I'd argue with. Yes they went up by 2 points, but they also gained ASF and Murdress Prowess.

While this is true, don't forget that all the other entries that they compete with also got ASF and MP. I'm having a hard time finding a spot for my Spearmen over other entries.

[Setomidor]

Biggest buff: Executioners, but this is somewhat mitigated by the nerf to the CoB.
Biggest nerf: The Hydra. Didn't think I'd miss having it around this much.

[Maesltrom]

After only one game i'm not certain but...

Buff: Corsairs with 12" handbows and 4+ save and DR with 4+ save for cheaper are a dead tie. Fantastic chaff units.

Nerf: No pendant. It was insanely broken and now rightfully it is no more.

[Darthken]

im not to impressed with our signature spell "power of darkenss" it does nothing that can't be better replicated by taking lore of beasts, and a downside of maybe giving you a wound

Obviously not much of a problem for a lvl3-4 who will probably have soul stealer to help keep those wounds up, but a bit dangerous for that lvl 2.

best buff was the exe's, add Tullaris and a cauldron buff for 3A each striking in I order

[T.D.]

Biggest Buff: Executioners. No ASL but still S6? Insanely good.

Biggest Nerf: COB. Those three autocast undispellable spells were an incredible option. Honourable mention to old Magic Items

- hydra lost beastmasters and regen

I'm intrigued with how the new Hydra will play on the table.

No regen means it is much more likely to get killed in one round than before. But on the other hand it is now more resilient to its old bane of flaming artillery (i.e. screaming skull catapults). And if it does happen to survive a round, it now can regain wounds throughout the course of the battle.

Breath template upgrade while no longer S5 to begin with, is more reliable at S4 regardless of wounds.

[Liquidedust]

Biggest Buff: Executioners. No ASL but still S6? Insanely good.

Biggest Nerf: COB. Those three autocast undispellable spells were an incredible option. Honourable mention to old Magic Items

- hydra lost beastmasters and regen

I'm intrigued with how the new Hydra will play on the table.

No regen means it is much more likely to get killed in one round than before. But on the other hand it is now more resilient to its old bane of flaming artillery (i.e. screaming skull catapults). And if it does happen to survive a round, it now can regain wounds throughout the course of the battle.

Breath template upgrade while no longer S5 to begin with, is more reliable at S4 regardless of wounds.

It not actually more resilient against flaming artillery, it just doesn't really care about them anymore. If anything if your opponent has 2 cannons, you pretty much know you will lose one monster per round since they do not have to worry about removing regeneration anymore and can focus that firepower/spells elsewhere.

Yes I hear a lot of people say "but cannons can miss", well . . . unless you misfire people who use cannons do not really miss with them. And if a cannon hits a Kahrybdiss or Hydra it has roughly 30% chance to remove them from play. And if it doesn't kill them outright it is a 50/50 chance that the cannon either cripples the monster so heavily that you wont really be able to use it properly the following turn or that you have a fairly fighting ready monster.

Or let's say a council of light that decide that they do not like your big bad . . . you going to dispel or dispel scroll that banishment when they still sit with dice on the hand?

2d6 S7~ hits will on average shave off 4.67 wounds off your Khari or Hydra (with a fairly high chance of erasing it outright).

Lizardman skinks or any lizardman unit with swarm support for that matter will make short work of it as well.

Warriors of Chaos is probably one of the worst matchups, they do not have to worry that much about the Hydra, might ponder a sec or two about the Khari but is about it.

Demons will make short work of it as well, same with Ogres (against Ogres both Hydra and Khari are very sub-optimal choices to start with though)

Without life I do not really see them as that viable to use competitively, they are sadly big flags that says "kill me for esay points sadly".

I'll still use a monster mash list in some friendly games, but that is pretty much it for me

[T.D.]

Fair points well made, Liquid.

[Marky]

Biggest buff: characters can take a fast cav mount and are cheaper (support a 1+ armor save with only mundane items)

Biggest nerf: I miss the old tome of furion (six spells on a lv 4 yummie!)

[Whobetta]

Biggest Buffs:
- MP
- ASF
- WE as core now
- No more "Khanite" rule
- RBT = cheap & Special
- DR w/ 4+ & Fast Cav still

Biggest Nerfs:
- Magical Items (sac dagger, no more pendant of sillyness etc...)
- Harpies
- Hydra


P.S. Dal (am not an experienced player, so would really love a quick tutorial on not getting smoked by cannons)

[Clockwork]

Spearmen I'd argue with. Yes they went up by 2 points, but they also gained ASF and Murdress Prowess.

While this is true, don't forget that all the other entries that they compete with also got ASF and MP. I'm having a hard time finding a spot for my Spearmen over other entries.

That's true, but I think that they serve a nice niche. And this is one of the strength's of the book, for me, in that you have a Core entry for every purpose.

Want models on the table with more attacks? Spearmen.
Want models on the table with a little more defence? Swordsmen.
Want the most damage but least defence? Witch Elves.
Want fewer models, but very defensive and still quite fighty? Corsairs.
Want some ranged power? Repeater Crossbows.
Want a flexible ranged/fighty option in one, but with fewer models overall? Repeater Crossbows with Shields.

You've basically got almost every option you could want to really personalise your Core and tailor the list to your desire. I find that really compelling in a list and, speaking as a Lizardmen player, compare it to the Core in that look where your choice is essentially, how many Skinks to each Saurus.

[Trax]

Yeah, I'd be interested too in how to block cannon shots on large targets or by large targets (Steam Tank). And without 2++ or re-rollable 3+ save I won't, for instance, put my masters in harm's way any longer.

[Vampire1812]

I think they can easily fix cannon. Str 10 D6 W on spot it lands and str 5 1 wound on bounce. Just like stone thrower. Problem solved.

To not get off topic I think Morathi is our biggest buff. Cheaper meaner and more survivable. Great character option and the only one that isn't a dud. Worst is probably Malus.

[CreativeName]

Biggest Nerf- Magic Dice: Resource Management, I could really milk the efficiency in the magic phase with the old book. Now it's not as easy with them balancing some of that magic silliness. It's not gone but I feel the impact in the magic phase.

Biggest Buff- Combat, obviously Executioners are more independent but ASF makes the punch we have last a bit longer in subsequent rounds.