Sorceress or Warlocks?

[Killerk]

I have made a few lists, and I'm considering dropping all my Sorceress, in favour of warlocks and additional unit's.

With ASF in our ranks, brings lost of high strength attacks, from exes and CoK, CoC ad others. The army doesn't really need magic to work. Also if you work out that the spells cast by the warlocks need 3 dice to use, which means 2 units eat up your magic phase. A bad miscast wont wreck your magic phase, the warlocks are more mobile and are more resilient.

So I'm really wondering is spending the 300 points on a level 4 and/or 150 for l2, really makes sense? 300 points that's 25 exes .

Then when you start counting the durability of the army, our new DE really suffer. Adding 300 points of troops really helps your armies durability index.

Efficiency having warlocks and sorceress hampers your magic phase efficiency to unacceptable numbers. Any way I look at it 2 units of warlocks are more effective army wise, then the sorceress. As the Sorc makes a better magic phase, and that's all. The Warlocks preform a wide range of tasks, suck as board control, durability and CC damage out put. Making the points spent on them much more effective.

So considering all in all, before playing any games, it looks like I can drop my sorceress. something I haven't really done since 6th ed, what do you guys think?

[Trax]

What's so great about it, with a MM and a debuff, the Warlocks pretty much "have it all". It's not the largest variety but you can deal damage from afar and can win (hard) key melee fights via magic or support (concentrated) missile fire.

I can see me trying it one day or the other, but I'd still miss some nice-to-haves like a better dispel bonus, larger spell variety or a dispel scroll. The only other problem I can see with this is, that, while relatively durable, two smaller units of Warlocks are still (fairly) easy to knock out if focused and if I was my own enemy, and see that there is no other caster but those five T3 guys, I'd made them bite the dust even faster than I'd to anyway (since they seem to be a pain in the ass). A sorc is much more easy to defend from almost anything (but death magic maybe).

Anyway, go ahead, test it, there's no critical... flaw I could think of, warlocks are just that great and freeing up points is quite attractive for an army where just about everything got up in points (everything but chars, and thus, sorcs for instance - which I think is funny, considering your idea^^)

[Killerk]

I falied to make it clear that 2 units of warlocks would be needed for redundancy pourposes.

[Trax]

Well, I took that as a given, yet still, make that ten T3 guys, they are still not the most durable unit. They are great at taking the odd damage/spell/shooting, but will go down if focused, and I'd guess they raise from high priority to prime target. Shutting down the complete enemy magic phase is always pretty great...

[Killerk]

they are also fast cav, with an rage of 18", and soul bight is a hex, so you can easily use terrain to hide them.

[Trax]

Yeah, I'm aware of all their perks, but you've still gotta be careful with them and using their Doombolt for instance might prove more dangerous than you'd want to. But like I said, give it a try, there are really no glaring weaknesses I could see. Still, enemy flyers, skirmishers, and other light troops might successfully hunt them down or at least deny them their safe spots.

In pretty much every single battle report I've read so far they were the or among the MVPs, so I'm confident you can make your plan work, though.

[Setomidor]

Even though the spells on the warlocks are very solid, they're not really game winners in the same way that Purple Sun or Dwellers from below can be. I'm currently opting for one Lvl4 backed up by 5 Warlocks, a very decent magic phase weighing in at about 400 pts

[Scyloc]

Warlocks really does let you compete offensively in the magic phase without sorcerers.

However this leaves you with a +2 to dispel and without any arcane slots for dispel scroll, Scepter of stability etc.

So while your offensive magic is reasonable, your magic defense is subpar. Which could cause you serious problems in some matchups.

[Killerk]

Well this is true, magic defence is limited.
But while playing WoC I only have a l2, and I must say, still, my enemy gets 1 max 2 spells off in a turn. But you must be extremely careful what you dispel, and what you let through.
the big question is will the 300 extra points out weigh the odd spell getting through. And to be honest, I don't know yet.
The experience I have with WoC, is that a fast hard hitting list will work better with the extra models.
In smaller games I ran it without magic, and it just raped my opponent's. Kind of hoping the DE will work in a similar fashion. Even if the WoC is a little more powerful then ours.

[Askador]

Maybe you should run a level 1 (Beast lore maybe for the 1s 1t spell) and give her the Scroll. The Spell comes in handy, the Scroll is always good and if they clear your Warloks you still be able to get a bit help in dispelling.

[Killerk]

A l1 beast is a 105 point's, and you need 4 dice to cast it, while -1 T ans S, is almost as good as +1 S and T. And you have a 105 to spend on other things.

[Askador]

A l1 beast is a 105 point's, and you need 4 dice to cast it, while -1 T ans S, is almost as good as +1 S and T. And you have a 105 to spend on other things.

I agree with you here. But if you want to boost the magic Defence a little bit its the cheapest way to go in my opinion. 1 more chance to channel, and Dispell Scroll. The beat lore was just an idea. you can take something else too. there are some good basic spells. Metal, Shadow, Beast, aso.

[Falstaff]

I disagree.

Although the warlocks are absolutely awesome, I think that a lvl 4 is necessary. We need spells to deal with stuff our troops cannot deal with. That's very tough characters that are most likely flying, very hard monsters and large close combat blocks that outgrind our blocks or kill everything else that's elvy and in their way.

That's why I just cannot part with my lvl 4 on death. She brings magic defense and a very powerful offense.

I can see running her with just one unit of Warlocks, however she would have to take the scroll then.

My favorite setup so far is lvl 4 on death, lvl 2 dark or life and 1 unit of 5 Warlocks.

[Phierlihy]

On paper Warlocks are great. I was thinking that when my main Sorceress dies, they'd just start spamming boosted Doombolts. Then I realized with six dice they'd still only have a 50/50 chance to get it off. Better than nothing but not a replacement for a real caster.

[Liquidedust]

On paper Warlocks are great. I was thinking that when my main Sorceress dies, they'd just start spamming boosted Doombolts. Then I realized with six dice they'd still only have a 50/50 chance to get it off. Better than nothing but not a replacement for a real caster.

Slightly less chance than 50/50, but close enough not to worry about it too much

Though I seldom do stuff in-game unless I at least have a 75% chance to succeed with it; based on some quick head calculation, its not like I sit down with a calculator or anything.

Might do a gamble here and there, but only if it wont hurt me too much if I fail

[Killerk]

Big versions of the spells are not worth the dice, it's better to roll 2 different small doombolts using 3 dice each, then to try and get the big version on 6 dice.

[Trax]

And 3 dice is still asking for wasted PD with them. +2 on your cast is not exactly huge and almost half of your Doombolts will sizzle before the enemy even looks at his dispel dice. I'd rather spent 4 and put (reliably) some pressure on the enemy - if able, of course.

[Bounce]

I would tend to agree, no sorceress lists are definitely viable now. 2 warlock units practically give you 2 level 2 sorceress which auto get awesome spells, don't care about miscasts, have an inbuilt 4 plus ward, good combat attacks for roughly the same points.

For people that can't live without a certain item you should try and work on playing without a crutch it will make you a better player.

[Shade3413]

So it's likely that this list's, with warlocks and no sorceress, biggest weakness is it's magic defense. With that in mind are there reliable ways for us to bulk up on magic defense to make up for it? We do have access to a few sources of MR for instance.

[Trax]

Problem is, the nastiest kind of magic often doesn't care about MR, hexes, enemy buffs and auto-kill spells don't care if your unit has a 2++ against magic damage.

[Falstaff]

I don't see the point how playing without the scroll would make me a better player!?

In some magic phases you will look at doubles or a large discrepancy of dice allowing for opponents that have 2 "game winning" spells to get through at least one (if they get the casting value).
In these cases there is no skill or tactic that can save your elves being burned by a firey convocation or turned into rats by the 13th.. it's scroll or no scroll in those cases.

Imho a good general has a scroll for just these occasions.

[T.D.]

That's why I just cannot part with my lvl 4 on death. She brings magic defense and a very powerful offense.

My favorite setup so far is lvl 4 on death, lvl 2 dark or life and 1 unit of 5 Warlocks.

Hi Falstaff,

I'm intrigued.

Can you tell me all the equip you usually run on the two Sorcs?

Cheers,

[T.D.]

@ KillerK,

Cool idea. I will be interested to see how it plays out.

I'm thinking with a powerful all cavalry/flyer list this approach would be very effective. For the stuff that can't be magicked it should be possible to (i) combat character or (ii) avoid.

[Dalamar]

On a table next to mine today, a friend playing dark elves had a unit of 10 warlocks as his only magic.
Against Vampires

He was pretty much spamming bubble soulblight on max dice every turn to a great effect, massacring the vamps.

[Killerk]

]The list would look something like this, Still a WIP. I have included the ring of Hotec, its not great magic protection, but it may discourage some players form casting big spells as well it will interfere with area effect spells, which could be nice. But you could easily drop it to get some thing else. Also the Dark peg can be swamped, but its nice to have a reliable filer. The list is missing harpies. especially for those that play using simple line of sight. Then again the list has no good targets for cannons, and only 1 real target for the remaining war machines. Also a unit of scouts would be gold, to ensure a good vanguard move.

The list has 5 units of fast cav, 2 heavy cav, and 2 mobile heroes. They should be uses to set up the battle field for the second wave.



Master on Dark Steed 142 Pts
General; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield
Ring of Hotek

Master BSB on Dark Pegasus 213 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield;
Cloak of Twilight

5 Dark Riders 110 Pts
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Shield; Musician

5 Dark Riders 110 Pts
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Shield; Musician

5 Dark Riders 110 Pts
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Shield; Musician

10 Witch Elves 120 Pts
Frenzy; 2ndWeapon; Musician

11 Witch Elves 151 Pts
Frenzy; 2ndWeapon; Standard; Musician; Banner of Eternal Flame

14 Har Ganeth Executioners 178 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Musician

14 Har Ganeth Executioners 178 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Musician

30 Har Ganeth Executioners 370 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Musician

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower 70 Pts

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower 70 Pts

5 Cold One Knights 160 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Musician

5 Cold One Knights 160 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Musician

5 Doomfire Warlocks 125 Pts

5 Doomfire Warlocks 125 Pts

Models in Army: 122

Total Army Cost: 2392

the problem with this s that you still need to buy a hero to be your general, thus you don't really get so many points for unit's. Still 122 modes prime choice, and not making a list to include numbers is impressive.