My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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HERO
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My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by HERO »

Wrote it here:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/10/expl ... lding.html

I would like to know what the rest of you have experienced so far. What have you tried, how have you done, and what you've tweaked/changed over the last couple of days?
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Ransom
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by Ransom »

I can see one (or both) of the Kharibdyss becoming pegasus or fast cav masters with cloak of twilight or perhaps the chill blade for a little more utility.
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Dalamar
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by Dalamar »

So far every list I built looks tiny and fragile to me. I'm used to fielding minimum characters and maximum units... but Dark Magic is too good to pass up a Level 4 for it, then I still need a BSB and support wizard, eats about 700 points from my list right there.

Then the units got more expensive and I can never find room for everything I want.

Now to read your blog post.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by HERO »

Dalamar wrote:So far every list I built looks tiny and fragile to me. I'm used to fielding minimum characters and maximum units... but Dark Magic is too good to pass up a Level 4 for it, then I still need a BSB and support wizard, eats about 700 points from my list right there.

Then the units got more expensive and I can never find room for everything I want.

Now to read your blog post.


Absolutely, which is why I've gone into the simple is better direction. The fact we get Warlocks means we get Lv.2s to support without having to dig into the Sorc at all. Soulblight is a fantastic spell, and if you really want to, you don't even need to send the Warlocks out to hunt anyone.

I only have 400 in lords/heroes right now, that's 300 less than you to spend on bodies on the battlefield. In this edition and against what I've experienced, I think that's the way to go.
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by Dalamar »

If I drop my sorceress (level 1 scroll caddy) that only saves me 105 points, there's really not much I can do with that... beef up a unit or maybe add one more dark rider squad.

And I'm losing the scroll (though I rarely used one in the previous book, go figure)
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by CreativeName »

I like how your list is built. It looks like an effective list based on your strategy. But saying that and considering your strategy, I would think you would split the shades up into units of 5 for the flexibility. Is there a reason you prefer them together?
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by HERO »

CreativeName wrote:I like how your list is built. It looks like an effective list based on your strategy. But saying that and considering your strategy, I would think you would split the shades up into units of 5 for the flexibility. Is there a reason you prefer them together?


Because I find 2 units of them well good for drops, is bad for actually killing anything. You need a high volume of shots and plentiful S5 to threaten things on a larger level, and that's what I like. Smaller units means your opponents have to focus on both, or overkill one, but I like more models for the damage.
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by Dalamar »

You could always deploy them in the same spot and treat them as a single unit for all purposes except for being targeted by your opponent.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by HERO »

Dalamar wrote:You could always deploy them in the same spot and treat them as a single unit for all purposes except for being targeted by your opponent.


What about when entering houses or being charged?
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by Dalamar »

In first case, keep one in, keep one out.

In second case, flee?
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by HERO »

Dalamar wrote:In first case, keep one in, keep one out.

In second case, flee?


Why do you think Dark Magic is so good? Honestly, I think Shadow is much better.
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by Sulla »

HERO wrote:
Dalamar wrote:In first case, keep one in, keep one out.

In second case, flee?


Why do you think Dark Magic is so good? Honestly, I think Shadow is much better.
I find Dark pretty much like it's always been, only moreso. Awesome against elves, humans and undead, poor vs WoC and Ogres. If you had to make an all comers army, you'd almost want Morathi for that reason.
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by Setomidor »

I have only gotten one game off so far, but spent a lot of time theorizing about how I think the list should be played and I'm currently thinking that playing a DE army successfully is a two step process:

1) Quickly get rid of enemy war machines and shooting using Pegs/Fastcav/Shooting/Magic. Meanwhile, hide stuff vulnerable to ranged attacks (i.e. everything) away behind cover or out of range.
2) Emerge with unharmed kick-ass CC units from behind cover and mop up the remaining CC units.

Of course, against some opponents like Beastmen or VC, step one is not necessary and you can deploy into step two right away. These are the kinds of match ups that I think will be easiest for the DE.

The more I consider this approach, the more I feel that the book is designed to support this. For example, if it is one thing that Dark Magic does properly, it's shutting down shooting:

- Chillwind lowers the BS of enemy units, and inflicts 2D6 low strenght hits which are perfect against war machines (since 6:es always wounds). With some luck, another 2D6 low strength hits are added from the lore attribute. At 4D6 hits, possibly rerolling to-wound from cauldron, you should reliably kill a regular warmachine with a single successful cast.
- Doombolt can be used in the same way against war machines. Most regular shooting units are T3, which means that the S5 from Doombolt is going to put a serious dent in enemy shooting units.
- Word of Pain lowers both WS and BS by D3 on the lowest casting level
- Black Horror will autokill warmachines since they automatically fail characteristic tests. The range of Black Horror, with 4xArtillery dice on a lvl4, and the fact that we can have fast-cav wizards makes this a tremendous tool to wipe out a whole warmachine park in a single turn.
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by Ilderoth »

Hi HERO,

Havin read some of your blogs I noticed that you changed the magic lore of your L4: no longer life but shadow. I can´t help feeling that lore of life offers something that the DE army as a whole lacks: durability. We can deliver blows but don't absorp them very well in return... I have played shdow for a long time and it is brilliant but I am currently leaning towards a L4 with life in a unit of 29 exes. So, basically my question is why you have come to prefer shadow to life.
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by Askador »

Ilderoth wrote:Hi HERO,

Havin read some of your blogs I noticed that you changed the magic lore of your L4: no longer life but shadow. I can´t help feeling that lore of life offers something that the DE army as a whole lacks: durability. We can deliver blows but don't absorp them very well in return... I have played shdow for a long time and it is brilliant but I am currently leaning towards a L4 with life in a unit of 29 exes. So, basically my question is why you have come to prefer shadow to life.


I think its two different things of the same Medal. Life buffs our Troops and Shadow Debuffs the enemy. Both can be good.
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by Omnichron »

Why have durability when you can just kill off the enemy before they get to strike you ;)

Life is good for some things, but shadow is still one of the big lores for DE for a reason. I haven't decided what I should go for yet for the upcoming tournament(s), but I'll experiment with both of those as well as death and dark magic.
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by HERO »

Ilderoth wrote:Hi HERO,

Havin read some of your blogs I noticed that you changed the magic lore of your L4: no longer life but shadow. I can´t help feeling that lore of life offers something that the DE army as a whole lacks: durability. We can deliver blows but don't absorp them very well in return... I have played shdow for a long time and it is brilliant but I am currently leaning towards a L4 with life in a unit of 29 exes. So, basically my question is why you have come to prefer shadow to life.


I only take Life if I'm taking Hellebron, otherwise I'm playing with Shadow.

Shadow is a very strong lore for Elves. Why? Because it levels everything we have trouble with and takes advantage of our natural ASF, high WS and I.
1. Elite troops with high WS and I can be dealt with Miasma.
2. High armor troops can be destroyed by Mindrazor.
3. High strength can be robbed of their power with Enfeeble.
4. High toughness units can be dispatched easier with Withering on them.
5. Expensive, multi-wound models with low I can be destroyed with Pit of Shades.
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by Dalamar »

1. Or with word of pain.
2. Or black horror/soul stealer without risking losing your unit if the spell fails.
3. Or with word of pain.
4. You got me here but doombolt is a good solution without risking your troops.
5. Or with Black Horror (most characters have higher I than WS)

My issue with shadow is that the good spells are hard to cast and if they're dispelled or fail that unit you just put in combat in hopes of getting the spell.

Not to mention shroud can be a game winner by itself with a little dose of luck.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by HERO »

Wait, why is high armor dispatched from Black Horror? Every major meta threat from armored is S4 less you're playing Elves..

Vortex is weak compared to a Augment like Mindrazor, and combo of Word of Pain + Black Horror is not assured as easily as a single casting of 6-die Mindrazor. It also works better for positioning and once combat is joined, plus, it affects every single one of your units. It can turn a unit of pleb spears into a blender capable of ripping through a knight bus. That's impossible to do with Dark, period.

1. Miasma is dirt cheap and comes as sig.
2. Already mentioned above.
3. Bigger cast of Word of Pain rivals that of Enfeeble and Withering.
4. Point taken, but if your only answer is Doombolt, we have Warlocks.
5. You have no answer to low-I, multi-wound, high-S creatures via Black Horror, don't kid yourself. Any player who has an IQ over 40 will throw his dice at Word of Pain and let you have Black Horror, or vice versa. Two-piece combos don't resolve against good players unless you IF.

The weakness to the lore is something you've already mentioned several times without actually saying it. It's extremely dependent on two key spells: Word of Pain and Black Horror, with Horror not being effective once units joined combat, and weak vs. the majority of competitive armies. Not to mention god help you if it ever misfires.

Hey, if it helps at all, High Magic is just as garbage and suffer vs. the same armies that DE do with Dark Magic.
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by Dalamar »

No its actually its strength because each spell separately is good and if you manage to combine them (not as hard as you like to think but it does depend on winds of magic roll) they're incredible.

I can give you the same answer to shadow, if you charge with witches, all dice will go to dispel mindrazor which is hard enough to cast rhat you won't have enough dice left fo a reliable enfeeble or withering.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by HERO »

I don't think you need Enfeeble or Withering if you're going hard with Mindrazor on that turn. The objective tunnels into utterly murdering whatever is in that particular combat.

Keep playing with Dark, by all means go for it. I gave High Magic 10 or so games before I switched back to Shadow. I go back to High occasionally, but only when I'm not playing serious. Mark my words though, you will regret taking Dark Magic when you enter a serious tournament. It has no answers to the top books in the meta and will be better as a Tome of Furion, Lv.2 support lore.
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by Dalamar »

So if your mindrazor fails you now have a unit stuck fighting an enemy they're not equipped to fight and no way to bail them out?

The best HE player in my area, winner of interstate tournaments uses high magic exclusively. That lore is incredible but it's your choice not to use it.
Dark magic is extremely versatile and with Tome you can always have a spell that is absolute key (which I still need to decide what spell that is exactly). It has answers to everything and my only wish is that we had dark loremaster but for some reason even Morathi isn't one.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by Fallenturtle »

Shadow is quite frankly boring as hell. Did I get mindrazer this game and did it go off when I needed it? If yes, 6 dice and murder, If No, CRY.. It takes no skill what so ever to run shadow. you might as well be playing Warriors at that point.

This is what I go through when looking up magic. What does it bring to the army, and what happens if I don't get "THE SPELL" I need in a game. Shadow doesn't have that answer like Dark, Death Etc. You can't guarantee mindrazor in all your games like you can for dark saying Word of pain (thanks to the tome). you can't guarantee Withering, Enfeebling from shadow. the only thing from shadow you can guarantee is miasma and if you just want that take a level 1 scroll caddy with that.

I've been running death for a while and I've found that you don't need 6 dice sun to win with that lore like you need 6 dice Mindrazor for shadow. It's nice, but it's not essential for my army to work, and with Warlocks I really don't need to run death anymore because I can guarantee my favorite spell in the whole lore (soul blight)

@Dal- It's a toss up between Word of pain, and Soulstealer. both are in that odd numbers but for most games I'd probably go after word of pain (considering it's a must) and hope for soul stealer.
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by HERO »

If you want to talk tournaments, we can look here in this thread I posted on Ulthuan. You know, that island you guys want so much :>
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 38#p843838

If Mindrazor fails on 6-dice, well then, it failed. It's still higher chances of IF and possibly of getting it off than 1-2 spells that may or may not turn the combat that much at all.

I question the competition if your area if he's using High Magic exclusively. While it is a decent lore, it's just not on the same page as Shadow, Death and Life (or Light Council), it really isn't. If he's doing really well with High, then I really start questioning the competition or the metagame in your area. Both High and Dark do very well vs. Elven-ish armies but suffer immensely vs. beastly things like WoC, DoC and Ogres.
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Re: My thoughts on Dark Elves list building

Post by HERO »

Fallenturtle wrote:Shadow is quite frankly boring as hell. Did I get mindrazer this game and did it go off when I needed it? If yes, 6 dice and murder, If No, CRY.. It takes no skill what so ever to run shadow. you might as well be playing Warriors at that point.

This is what I go through when looking up magic. What does it bring to the army, and what happens if I don't get "THE SPELL" I need in a game. Shadow doesn't have that answer like Dark, Death Etc. You can't guarantee mindrazor in all your games like you can for dark saying Word of pain (thanks to the tome). you can't guarantee Withering, Enfeebling from shadow. the only thing from shadow you can guarantee is miasma and if you just want that take a level 1 scroll caddy with that.

I've been running death for a while and I've found that you don't need 6 dice sun to win with that lore like you need 6 dice Mindrazor for shadow. It's nice, but it's not essential for my army to work, and with Warlocks I really don't need to run death anymore because I can guarantee my favorite spell in the whole lore (soul blight)

@Dal- It's a toss up between Word of pain, and Soulstealer. both are in that odd numbers but for most games I'd probably go after word of pain (considering it's a must) and hope for soul stealer.


You don't need to Mindrazor, you can do castings of Miasma, Withering or Enfeeble in any combination. My point is that you have Mindrazor as an option, something Dark does not have at all when dealing with power units. It's all about options, and I find the options in Shadow to be much better.

But yeah man, play with whatever you want at the end of the day. It's your hobby!
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