Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by far?
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by far?
The end of the title should probably read "(except for Dark Riders of course)".
Sorry if similar threads have come and gone. Since the glorious advent of the new book it's been hard to keep up with all the threads and ideas here (seems that both the Druchii and Asur forums are peculiarly fecund compared to many others).
With the old book I only ever used Witch Elves as 5 or 6-strong units, due to not wanting to shell out for the old models, and also having enough of everything else not to be bothered about having another infantry block. I found them to be fantastic in their role, even though they died most games, because the threat such a MINISCULE (erm, every time I write that word it auto-capitalises it, and there's no way around it. Wtf? Let's try again. MINISCULE. Woah, wierd!) unit posed was disproportionally large, especially when Mindrazor was in play and could turn that 50 or 60 point unit into a delete button.
Now we have Witch Elves 2.0, I'm completely torn. I have seen them derided as a trap multiple times, because of the high cost for unarmoured troops which kind of herds you into sticking a Cauldron in them, which is like 'throwing good money after bad' and is also vulnerable itself to warmachines. Not being able to take them in very small units is a big downer for me, as a minimum sized unit is now more than double what it used to cost, and so is no longer completely expendable. Also. with the boost DE in general have received in combat, and the huge improvement to serpent cloaks, Corsairs loom large as potentially our best and most versatile infantry core troops.
However, I can't shake the feeling that I may be ignoring the fact that Poison, ASF, 3 attacks, and MP, makes Witch Elves so ridiculously good that they beat out even Corsairs. I don't play a massive amount of games so a lot of my thoughts come from the rules themselves (need to play more!) and I wonder whether I should be trying to get some Witch Elves into my lists to see what they can do now. Most importantly, do you think they can still work as very small units, say 10 or 12, or should they be horded up with the Cauldron to get maximum durability and mileage out of them? Or a bit of both?
I'll be getting some eventually anyway as I think the models are AWESOME, but I'm interested to know what people think of them.
Sorry if similar threads have come and gone. Since the glorious advent of the new book it's been hard to keep up with all the threads and ideas here (seems that both the Druchii and Asur forums are peculiarly fecund compared to many others).
With the old book I only ever used Witch Elves as 5 or 6-strong units, due to not wanting to shell out for the old models, and also having enough of everything else not to be bothered about having another infantry block. I found them to be fantastic in their role, even though they died most games, because the threat such a MINISCULE (erm, every time I write that word it auto-capitalises it, and there's no way around it. Wtf? Let's try again. MINISCULE. Woah, wierd!) unit posed was disproportionally large, especially when Mindrazor was in play and could turn that 50 or 60 point unit into a delete button.
Now we have Witch Elves 2.0, I'm completely torn. I have seen them derided as a trap multiple times, because of the high cost for unarmoured troops which kind of herds you into sticking a Cauldron in them, which is like 'throwing good money after bad' and is also vulnerable itself to warmachines. Not being able to take them in very small units is a big downer for me, as a minimum sized unit is now more than double what it used to cost, and so is no longer completely expendable. Also. with the boost DE in general have received in combat, and the huge improvement to serpent cloaks, Corsairs loom large as potentially our best and most versatile infantry core troops.
However, I can't shake the feeling that I may be ignoring the fact that Poison, ASF, 3 attacks, and MP, makes Witch Elves so ridiculously good that they beat out even Corsairs. I don't play a massive amount of games so a lot of my thoughts come from the rules themselves (need to play more!) and I wonder whether I should be trying to get some Witch Elves into my lists to see what they can do now. Most importantly, do you think they can still work as very small units, say 10 or 12, or should they be horded up with the Cauldron to get maximum durability and mileage out of them? Or a bit of both?
I'll be getting some eventually anyway as I think the models are AWESOME, but I'm interested to know what people think of them.
- Dalamar
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Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
They're only 1 point more than they used to be which with the addition of ASF, MP and easy super frenzy is more than worth it.
That said, I think our Core in the new book is probably the best core of any book. We have no useless choices. Everything is good depending on the purpose.
If you want a combat monster you take witch elves
If you want resilient screeners that can fight, you take corsairs
If you want ranks and dagger fodder, you take swords/spears
If you want core shooting you take crossbows
If you want speed you take Dark Riders
There is no bad choice if the choice is made with a reason behind it.
Keep in mind out units got more expensive across the board (with the exception of dark riders) so 110 points is actually pretty cheap for a witch elf dart (I'd deploy them 2 wider than whatever unit you deploy them against and just race forward. You don't care if you get charged or you charge, you still go first and you will still die. The point is to cause mayhem)
That said, I think our Core in the new book is probably the best core of any book. We have no useless choices. Everything is good depending on the purpose.
If you want a combat monster you take witch elves
If you want resilient screeners that can fight, you take corsairs
If you want ranks and dagger fodder, you take swords/spears
If you want core shooting you take crossbows
If you want speed you take Dark Riders
There is no bad choice if the choice is made with a reason behind it.
Keep in mind out units got more expensive across the board (with the exception of dark riders) so 110 points is actually pretty cheap for a witch elf dart (I'd deploy them 2 wider than whatever unit you deploy them against and just race forward. You don't care if you get charged or you charge, you still go first and you will still die. The point is to cause mayhem)
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
I've been running 2 small units with musicians (10 each) lately and I've had a ton of success with them. They're effective redirectors with a high enough damage output to actually do some damage before they go down. The unit produces 15 poison attacks which pushes some wounds through and if they're the only viable unit a buff or two really pushes that damage. For example I charged a unit of Grail Knights with 10 witches just to block up my opponent's lanes and then tossed out a soul blight from my warlocks and managed to kill 3 Grail Knights and I held them up for a turn, losing all my witches in his turn rather than my own.
- Drek
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Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
I am very excited because they finally give us a core unit that can kill.
Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
I have always considered WE to one of our best units. I have always gotten my points worth for them as long as even half the unit made it to combat. That being said, Dalamar is right about our current core choices. There is no bad choices in it. We have cheap and decent speed bumbs in the Bleakswords, our Dreadspears only got better with MP, Corsairs getting the 4+ AS as well as MP is well worth the 1pt increase, our Darkshards make lightly armoured units gringe, and Dark Riders got cheaper and better with not losing Fast Cav rule for shields. My only disappointment was the losing Harpies from core, but after the way they got nerfed, probably not goin to use them to often anyway.
Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
Dalamar wrote:They're only 1 point more than they used to be which with the addition of ASF, MP and easy super frenzy is more than worth it.
That said, I think our Core in the new book is probably the best core of any book. We have no useless choices. Everything is good depending on the purpose.
If you want a combat monster you take witch elves
If you want resilient screeners that can fight, you take corsairs
If you want ranks and dagger fodder, you take swords/spears
If you want core shooting you take crossbows
I agree with this.
- Poisonblade
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Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
I have never been a fan of Witch Elves.
So far they have been pure gold for me. I use a Cauldron also. I didn't want to, but I think it's worth it if you take a big unit of Witches. The Cauldron is a lot of points and the Hag will die, but it's been very useful. I'm going to keeping running it until it fails me.
So far they have been pure gold for me. I use a Cauldron also. I didn't want to, but I think it's worth it if you take a big unit of Witches. The Cauldron is a lot of points and the Hag will die, but it's been very useful. I'm going to keeping running it until it fails me.
Hate is my weapon.
- Dalamar
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Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
xxvaderxx wrote:Dalamar wrote:They're only 1 point more than they used to be which with the addition of ASF, MP and easy super frenzy is more than worth it.
That said, I think our Core in the new book is probably the best core of any book. We have no useless choices. Everything is good depending on the purpose.
If you want a combat monster you take witch elves
If you want resilient screeners that can fight, you take corsairs
If you want ranks and dagger fodder, you take swords/spears
If you want core shooting you take crossbows
I agree with this.
But curiously you cut out Dark Riders, arguably our best Core.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
Dalamar wrote:xxvaderxx wrote:Dalamar wrote:They're only 1 point more than they used to be which with the addition of ASF, MP and easy super frenzy is more than worth it.
That said, I think our Core in the new book is probably the best core of any book. We have no useless choices. Everything is good depending on the purpose.
If you want a combat monster you take witch elves
If you want resilient screeners that can fight, you take corsairs
If you want ranks and dagger fodder, you take swords/spears
If you want core shooting you take crossbows
I agree with this.
But curiously you cut out Dark Riders, arguably our best Core.
Not in 8th no, 120 points is simply too much to get an average of 5 s3 hits a turn and they will likely die to the smallest amount of shooting and magic missiles. In fact i would almost treat them as a priority target, not because they can actually do anything meaningful, but because 2 units are some easy 250ish points and since unlike blocks which are numerous and need to be killed to the last man to get the points, they are easily wiped off the table, getting 250ish free points in a standard 2k points game, is rather significant.
Last edited by xxvaderxx on Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
Mine is bigger, No mine is bigger when you measure from the base.
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- Shade
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Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
Statistically, if you are just talking about damage output per point Witch Elves are by far the best unit in our book. When you toss in the cauldron, nothing else comes close. With the cauldron, they deal .40 wounds per attack to WS5 T5, and each file deals 6 attacks, so that is 2.4 wounds per file. Obviously much more to lower T. Cost: X points per wound (cannot post point costs).
Executioners with the cauldron deal .45 wounds per attack to WS5 T5, and get 4 attacks per file. That is only 1.8 wounds per file. You are paying 46% more pts per wound.
Black Guard: .42, 5 attacks, 2.1 wounds per file, costs 54% more pts per wound.
I used WS5 T5 as the reference to make the point that witch elves do just fine against high T targets. So vs. Crypt Horrors, Trolls, unarmored monsters, etc. there is no advantage to Execs over Witch Elves. It should be obvious that nothing beats witch elves when fighting Zombies or something.
Obviously the more armored the target, the better Execs become. However, armored targets tend to have relatively few total wounds, so I find that they can usually be dealt with by searing doom, bolt throwers, or small units of Cold One Knights. The problem with Execs is that they can easily get tarpitted by large units of crap, they can't get the 5+ ward save from the cauldron, and their damage output suffers dramatically as the unit shrinks. The nice thing about multi-attack units is they maintain high damage even when just the front rank is left alive.
Executioners with the cauldron deal .45 wounds per attack to WS5 T5, and get 4 attacks per file. That is only 1.8 wounds per file. You are paying 46% more pts per wound.
Black Guard: .42, 5 attacks, 2.1 wounds per file, costs 54% more pts per wound.
I used WS5 T5 as the reference to make the point that witch elves do just fine against high T targets. So vs. Crypt Horrors, Trolls, unarmored monsters, etc. there is no advantage to Execs over Witch Elves. It should be obvious that nothing beats witch elves when fighting Zombies or something.
Obviously the more armored the target, the better Execs become. However, armored targets tend to have relatively few total wounds, so I find that they can usually be dealt with by searing doom, bolt throwers, or small units of Cold One Knights. The problem with Execs is that they can easily get tarpitted by large units of crap, they can't get the 5+ ward save from the cauldron, and their damage output suffers dramatically as the unit shrinks. The nice thing about multi-attack units is they maintain high damage even when just the front rank is left alive.
Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
I agree that we have the best core in the game right now. And I'm suffering from being blinded by decisions. I can't pick a style of play that I enjoy more. MSU, deathstar, gun line, avoidance... All of those are viable to us and my head is swimming!!! Love it.
"With hate, all things are possible." - Malus Darkblade
Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
i always loved WEs for their flavour but i always hated that they are nude.
but my plans for this new AB is to invest very strongly in WEs with a 35x unit with CoB and Hellebron in it. They will be able to resist some shooting and Hellebron gives a 4+ on magic saves, so it's hard to be shot down by those area spells unless they go IF. and anyways if they soot on them they don't shoot on my execs or warlocks. corsairs are a lil bit more resilient of course, but our problem has always been able to deal with big armored guys and monsters and i feel like WEs can now help us with this. please i am noob so enybody stop me if i saying nonsense things...
but my plans for this new AB is to invest very strongly in WEs with a 35x unit with CoB and Hellebron in it. They will be able to resist some shooting and Hellebron gives a 4+ on magic saves, so it's hard to be shot down by those area spells unless they go IF. and anyways if they soot on them they don't shoot on my execs or warlocks. corsairs are a lil bit more resilient of course, but our problem has always been able to deal with big armored guys and monsters and i feel like WEs can now help us with this. please i am noob so enybody stop me if i saying nonsense things...
Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
@xxvaderxx 120pts? how are you tweaking them out? running with a standard and musician? do you have RXB's and shields on them? I'm just curious as to how you figure that a 4+ AS Fast Cav is a waste of points. Last time I checked, DR were considered one of the best units in the game. I have a buddy that plays HE and even with having SH's as Core again, is jealous of the DR's and admits they are better point for point.
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Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
It's nice that the WE are Core and like Dalamar mentioned earlier, they are only 1 point more than they used to be but they gained ASF.
However, I don't think they are a "ZOMG LOLZ MUST HAVE!!!11!"-unit. They have an impressive offensive capability, but they are very squishy, especially if you compare them with Corsairs. I personlayy like the fact that none of our Core choices are something that every army has to include, but that every unit is useful and that it's quite well down to personal preference
I know at some point I need to get around to painting a unit of them, but for now I'm concentrating on the number of Corsairs, Darkshards and Bleakswords that I bought
- Loran
However, I don't think they are a "ZOMG LOLZ MUST HAVE!!!11!"-unit. They have an impressive offensive capability, but they are very squishy, especially if you compare them with Corsairs. I personlayy like the fact that none of our Core choices are something that every army has to include, but that every unit is useful and that it's quite well down to personal preference
I know at some point I need to get around to painting a unit of them, but for now I'm concentrating on the number of Corsairs, Darkshards and Bleakswords that I bought
- Loran
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Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
I have mixed feeling about the Witches.
They are good. But they are also a Magnet for Ranged attacks. Noone shooting on Corsairs but you want to shoot Witches down pre Melee.
Frenzy is a Rule that can be really bad for you. A Smart enemy makes use of your Frenzy. He gives you a Bait and make them overrun where you dont want them.
But if you can avoid the shooting and Frenzy and get them into Melee Fights they are one of the best Core units we have. (Dark Riders are the best there)
So in my opinion they are "ok"
They are good. But they are also a Magnet for Ranged attacks. Noone shooting on Corsairs but you want to shoot Witches down pre Melee.
Frenzy is a Rule that can be really bad for you. A Smart enemy makes use of your Frenzy. He gives you a Bait and make them overrun where you dont want them.
But if you can avoid the shooting and Frenzy and get them into Melee Fights they are one of the best Core units we have. (Dark Riders are the best there)
So in my opinion they are "ok"
Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
I currently have two army lists written (we play 3k only) and I'm lucky enough that I play with a small group and no-one has cannons. Therefore in both lists I am running a unit of 20 and a unit of 30 WEs. One list is my "fun" list with Dragon DL and Black Guard, then there's my more "serious" which is based off Har Ganeth. I love the Khainite stuff but as I don't play tourneys and don't have to worry about cannons I think I've got much more room to put in stuff that others might not find to be optimal.
Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
Lysanthyr wrote:@xxvaderxx 120pts? how are you tweaking them out? running with a standard and musician? do you have RXB's and shields on them? I'm just curious as to how you figure that a 4+ AS Fast Cav is a waste of points. Last time I checked, DR were considered one of the best units in the game. I have a buddy that plays HE and even with having SH's as Core again, is jealous of the DR's and admits they are better point for point.
Dont want to turn this into a trolling contest so in short.
Unit of 5 with shields, xbow and musician = 110 points.
I dont like them because even at sv4+ they are so fragile they wont live past turn 1 and lack the punch and staying power to accomplish anything meaningful. They are significant easy points for your enemy to get and dead units do not redirect charges.
As i mentioned i dont want to derail the post, if you would like to debate it pm me.
Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
I love WEs, have always used them and always will.
I am thrilled that I can have them as core without having to take Hellabron anymore (not that she was a bad choice in the old book, not as good now though).
I am thrilled that I can have them as core without having to take Hellabron anymore (not that she was a bad choice in the old book, not as good now though).
Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
The only problem I do have with the new Witch Elves is the small point difference between them and our other core infantry. There is really no "core tax" for us, and thus I can hardly justify taking spears/swords - not even really as dagger fodder - with only 2p more, I'm getting corsairs, dagger fodder that doesn't die/kills stuff (on range if necessary, the new RHB are brillant) and with DR and quite some Witch Elves being somewhat mandatory for my play style... well, too "bad" they are core now. In short: They are great. The reasons have been mentioned numerous times, I guess.
Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
Am I right in thinking that the new corsair hand bows gained range but lost their 'ignore long range' rule? So you still ignore moving and shooting, but you wil nearly always be hitting on only 5s due to long range and multiple shots, or multiple shots and stand and shoot? Don't have the book with me at the moment.
Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
You're right. RHB shoot at 12” but now have penalty for long range.
Thanks to quick to fire, you can move (not double-move) and shoot with no penalty, and S&S at any distance.
Thanks to quick to fire, you can move (not double-move) and shoot with no penalty, and S&S at any distance.
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- Vilicate
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Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
They're alright. I find that they die very, very easily, and while I can get them into combat before they all die, I have problems with them living once they get there.
Playing against them, I found that my Corsairs were able to mess them up pretty bad; while they were scoring more wounds, the corsairs were able to shrug off most of the damage.
Playing against them, I found that my Corsairs were able to mess them up pretty bad; while they were scoring more wounds, the corsairs were able to shrug off most of the damage.
Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
xxvaderxx wrote:Not in 8th no, 120 points is simply too much to get an average of 5 s3 hits a turn and they will likely die to the smallest amount of shooting and magic missiles. In fact i would almost treat them as a priority target, not because they can actually do anything meaningful, but because 2 units are some easy 250ish points and since unlike blocks which are numerous and need to be killed to the last man to get the points, they are easily wiped off the table, getting 250ish free points in a standard 2k points game, is rather significant.
That's... really not how you use Dark Riders. I won't say much more only to suggest you look at how Dark Elf players have been using Dark Riders and Harpies, how High Elf players have been using Ellyrian Reavers, how Lizardmen players have been using Terradons, etc, all of which are equally expensive and fragile, and yet incredibly popular.
- Prince daerlythe
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Re: Witch Elves: are they a trap, okay, or our best core by
The big issue I'm seeing is how the WE stack up compared to the Corsairs, and it all comes down to style of play. WE are highly effective though squishy combat monsters who excel at taking our average troops and anything with little armour. Corsairs on the other hand can guard your flank and provide a solid defence until reinforcements arrive.
A look at some percentages when fighting average troops (WS3, S3, T3 w/ 5+ AS):
WE: 74% kill chance per attack, 25% of being killed by an enemy attack
Corsair: 40% kill chance per attack, 12.5% death chance per attack
The WE's poison gives her a huge boost on the offensive, but every 4th attack kills her. This is still a good trade when we consider the average troop costs about 5 pts/model, so it takes 20 pts to kill one 11 pt model. And with her lovely 3 attacks, she's likely to kill 2 models per CC round, which means one round of CC recoups her personal cost, and is effectively generating profit afterwards.
Corsairs will drag out the combat and are more likely to lose the fight, but it takes double the points to kill each model. 1 Corsair needs about 40pts of standard troops to be killed, a number I will note that can only be accomplished by 2 files of spearmen in horde formation.
So are WE effective? Yes. Best thing to do IMO? Field both units and play them together with a small unit of Harpies to screen for the WEs. Use them on the flanks and start a sideways sweep. Remember, we are elves. Great core or not, we win when we dictate the tide of battle. That means engaging the enemy on our terms and making them pay for it dearly with minimal casualties.
A look at some percentages when fighting average troops (WS3, S3, T3 w/ 5+ AS):
WE: 74% kill chance per attack, 25% of being killed by an enemy attack
Corsair: 40% kill chance per attack, 12.5% death chance per attack
The WE's poison gives her a huge boost on the offensive, but every 4th attack kills her. This is still a good trade when we consider the average troop costs about 5 pts/model, so it takes 20 pts to kill one 11 pt model. And with her lovely 3 attacks, she's likely to kill 2 models per CC round, which means one round of CC recoups her personal cost, and is effectively generating profit afterwards.
Corsairs will drag out the combat and are more likely to lose the fight, but it takes double the points to kill each model. 1 Corsair needs about 40pts of standard troops to be killed, a number I will note that can only be accomplished by 2 files of spearmen in horde formation.
So are WE effective? Yes. Best thing to do IMO? Field both units and play them together with a small unit of Harpies to screen for the WEs. Use them on the flanks and start a sideways sweep. Remember, we are elves. Great core or not, we win when we dictate the tide of battle. That means engaging the enemy on our terms and making them pay for it dearly with minimal casualties.
Blood stains the snow. Glory to Khaine!