Overlooked Rules

[Shearov]

I'm not sure if this thread would be good or not, but last night I had a game, and I thought I'd use the RBT with a single shot.

For some reason I'd always thought that a single shot was St.5 Armour Piercing ( I knew the d3 wounds / rank piercing rule), so the few times I took an RBT with the 7th ed book I just multishot.

It was then pointed out to me it is actually St 6 with no armour saves allowed, which makes single shots much more appealing.

I'm not sure if anyone would find the above new news, or have anything else they can add of rules they think some people might have overlooked / forgotten over time that could help.

[Daeron]

It's definitely good, but the weakness of the single shot is... the "single" part. With a single dice roll, hitting on a 4+ in many cases, you immediately get a 50% chance on the hit roll to get nothing. Then there's the 1/6 chance to fail to wound.

In short, against a T4 (or less) model, you have a 41.6% chance to actually do damage, before ward saves and regen.

The multishot has a 17.8% chance (A little more than 1 on 6) to do 0 wounds, before armor saves, ward saves or regen. Even against a 2+ armor save, which is reduced to a 4+ roll, you have 55.1% chance to do at least 1 wound, before ward saves and regen.

That's not to say that the multishot is always better. Ignoring armor saves is particularly effective when fighting rerollable armor saves. Also against 1+ armor saves, it becomes a steep race for the multishot option.
If there's a shot at rank piercing, then the single shot might prove very well worth the risk.

[Omnichron]

It's easy to overlook something in the rules (even though I knew about RBT single shot being a bolt thrower shot), and there's tons of it everywhere. It's why even some of the most veteran players keeps asking other players or checks the book of what the rules are... and even do mistakes.

Like, a few things that people might not know:
- If you fail a march test, you still count as marching when you do the move. You can't shoot or do things that are prohibited when marching.
- Fleeing wizards can still dispel and use magic items.
- If you try to charge someone and fail that charge, you still have to move in the same pattern as you would try to charge it... meaning that you will try to turn the degrees you needed to charge. Some resolve that instead like moving straight against the unit you would charge and stops 1 inch from the terrain/enemy unit that interfeers. The latter is mostly done wrong.

And the one that gave me a second place instead of a first place in a tournament:
- You CAN use stomp/thunderstomp when fighting enemies in a building (My hydra would have killed them all!!!)

[Askador]

I have some questions also here if you dont mind.

You cant Stomp a Cauldron or Shrine but you can Stomp the Unit if its inside a Unit right?

Breeze Weapons and Spells where you need the 3"or 5" Pattern on the CoB.. does it hit the Witch and the Chariot same time? So you need to Roll a Safe for both?

The Shooting of a Medusa or the Bladewind spell, if they hit a Firelizard .. does it hit the Handlers too? Or do you just hit the Lizard himselve since the Handlers are no Modells and dont need to do a Stat test?

Does a Chariot like the Shrine or the CoB have the "Out of the Way" rule and can move on the side if they get attacked on the Flank?

What happens if the Deathhag on a CoB dies but the Cob is still "Alive" or if the CoB get destroyed and the Hag lifes? Does the Mount with the 2 Witches stay? Does the Hag stay if the Cob is gone?
Do you need to rearrange the Unit after the Combat?

You see i have some problems with the Rules of Chariots inside a Unit

[Archamedius]

I'd also be interested to know if the death hag on top of a Cauldron can Look out Sir against attacks like warp lightning cannons, or similar.

[Phierlihy]

I have some questions also here if you dont mind.

You cant Stomp a Cauldron or Shrine but you can Stomp the Unit if its inside a Unit right?

Breeze Weapons and Spells where you need the 3"or 5" Pattern on the CoB.. does it hit the Witch and the Chariot same time? So you need to Roll a Safe for both?

The Shooting of a Medusa or the Bladewind spell, if they hit a Firelizard .. does it hit the Handlers too? Or do you just hit the Lizard himselve since the Handlers are no Modells and dont need to do a Stat test?

Does a Chariot like the Shrine or the CoB have the "Out of the Way" rule and can move on the side if they get attacked on the Flank?

What happens if the Deathhag on a CoB dies but the Cob is still "Alive" or if the CoB get destroyed and the Hag lifes? Does the Mount with the 2 Witches stay? Does the Hag stay if the Cob is gone?
Do you need to rearrange the Unit after the Combat?

You see i have some problems with the Rules of Chariots inside a Unit

A character in a unit does not change the unit type regardless if he is mounted on a horse, chariot, or on foot.

Template weapons would do one hit to the Death Hag and one hit to the chariot.

If the Cauldron is destroyed, remove it and put a Death Hag model in the unit. Keep the same frontage but collapse the rear ranks to fill in the gaps. If the Death Hag dies, the Cauldron stays.

Cauldrons of Blood do not have the 'make way' rule as it is specified in the unit entry it must be placed in the center front of the unit.

[Dyvim tvar]

You cant Stomp a Cauldron or Shrine but you can Stomp the Unit if its inside a Unit right?

This answer could be different depending on whether it's a Cauldron or a Shrine in the Unit as the Shrine is not a character and the only current FAQ regarding "mixed" units pertains only to characters.


Breeze Weapons and Spells where you need the 3"or 5" Pattern on the CoB.. does it hit the Witch and the Chariot same time? So you need to Roll a Safe for both?

I am not positive what you are asking, but a Template effect does hit both the character and the mount if it touches any part of the base. Also, there would not be a look-out-sir roll. Since the Cauldron is a Chariot, it does not get any protection from being in an Infantry unit.


The Shooting of a Medusa or the Bladewind spell, if they hit a Firelizard .. does it hit the Handlers too? Or do you just hit the Lizard himselve since the Handlers are no Modells and dont need to do a Stat test?

You mean a Salamander? The Salamander and its handlers are functionally a single model. So for the Bladewind spell, there would be 1 test and 1 hit. The medusa shooting is resolved against the Salamander first and any wounds go to handlers on a roll of 5+.


Does a Chariot like the Shrine or the CoB have the "Out of the Way" rule and can move on the side if they get attacked on the Flank?

Only characters can "Make Way" and the Shrine is not a character. Also, a character can only make way if it is on the same sized base as the unit it is with. So the answer here is no.


What happens if the Deathhag on a CoB dies but the Cob is still "Alive" or if the CoB get destroyed and the Hag lifes? Does the Mount with the 2 Witches stay? Does the Hag stay if the Cob is gone?
Do you need to rearrange the Unit after the Combat?

Characters do not die when their mounts die, and mounts don't die when the character dies. So the hag stays if the CoB is killed, and the the CoB stays if the hag is killed. In either case, the remaining model stays with the unit. Unlike other chariots, the CoB is allowed to join units and that rule does not depend on whether or not the hag is alive. And if the CoB dies, the Hag is just an infantry model and so there is no reason she would have to leave the unit.

[Calisson]

You cant Stomp a Cauldron or Shrine but you can Stomp the Unit if its inside a Unit right?
yes, as long as there is a base to base contact with unit (BRB p.76).

Breeze Weapons and Spells where you need the 3"or 5" Pattern (template) on the CoB.. does it hit the Witch and the Chariot same time? So you need to Roll a Safe for both?
Template hitting a mounted character always hit both. Randomize to see on which one the "hole" lands. (BRB p.105)

The Shooting of a Medusa or the Bladewind spell, if they hit a Firelizard .. does it hit the Handlers too? Or do you just hit the Lizard himselve since the Handlers are no Modells and dont need to do a Stat test?
Medusa has no spell, just a shooting. Use shooting rules.
Bladewind tests all models once. A mounted model (or with handlers) is still a single model, so 1 single test, resolved with best stat available (BRB p.10).

Does a Chariot like the Shrine or the CoB have the "Out of the Way" rule and can move on the side if they get attacked on the Flank?
No BRB's "Make way" as their special AB rule is valid only to enter or leave a unit, and specifies where they must be "always". AB>BRB.

What happens if the Deathhag on a CoB dies but the Cob is still "Alive" or if the CoB get destroyed and the Hag lifes? Does the Mount with the 2 Witches stay?
Yes, it becomes a regular chariot. (BRB p.106)
Does the Hag stay if the Cob is gone? Do you need to rearrange the Unit after the Combat?
Yes and yes, the DH model is placed where the COB was, and you rearrange the unit. But remember, all models that were in base contact with foe must remain so.

EDIT: Dyvim tvar has a better I than me...

[Askador]

Thanks for all the Help guys Really made things clear to me.

[Newsun]

Hag on CoB in unit. RAW they are no longer a character once joined to a unit. Needs FAQ to clear up if this is intended.

[Dyvim tvar]

What language are you relying on?

[Newsun]

I believe because of Will of Gods rule.

[Liquidedust]

Rules that are overlooked . . . 1" apart is one that people seem to forget about the most when I play with people.

Yes 1" apart is during movement, not just at the start and end of movement!

[Dyvim tvar]

Hag on CoB in unit. RAW they are no longer a character once joined to a unit. Needs FAQ to clear up if this is intended.

I believe because of Will of Gods rule.

I think you are misreading that rule.

The Will of Gods rule says that, even though it is a chariot, a Cauldron of Blood can join and leave units as if it were a character but that CoB is not a character itself.

However, this does not have anything to do the with the Death Hag on top of it. She is still a character just like a Dreadlord on a Black Dragon is still a character.